The Armour Archive

I know I am only new to the SCA scene but from what I have read and seen so far I just wanted to ask what others here thought of how the SCA deals with legs.

I think this topic may have been done before, I dont think I read it, so excuse me if this is one of those repeating annoying topics.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/kneel.htm

I read this article today about kneeling after taking leg shots. Originally I thought the idea was great having never done this in metal weapon combat however since I saw combatants go to their knees then vigourously proceed to knee-hobble and quite quickly at that, across to execute mostly thrusting attacks up at the standing fighter.. hmmm

The other leg issue was striking the lower leg. I've been told it is potential dangerous, but after padding and armour would a mashall consider it any less unsafe than other body parts? We do lower leg in metal weapon combat but the blow is pulled and not full force. However we are excluded from doing shots horizontally to the side of the head, vertical is ok. Anyway this SCA non-leg target thought also came from the arma site. So you can blame arma for putting these thoughts into my head if you disaprove of them

http://www.thearma.org/essays/fullleg.htm

Are people in favour of these essays or disagree. I just wanted to see what the common flavour was on the subject.

Wyrm.

I actually like both the essays (lengthy so I skimmed). There is no real advantage to the person that takes the leg, especially when the standing person must attack someone turtled up behind his shield or getting chased by someone on their knees. Makes sense to me, some type of advantage should be awarded to the person who has taken his adversary's limb.

The second essay would put another dimension to the fighting, I think it would be neat. I would be all for it.

These are just my opinions on the articles as I have read them, again I just skimmed them, I read entirely too much at school and this is fun time for me, not reading time so forgive me if I am a little off topic...

I've posted this sort of thing a couple of times, so I'll keep this short:

My group uses a version of standing leg wounds. 1 hit: plant the foot. 2nd hit to either leg: person struck is defeated. It quickly became the standard for our bunch. In addition to looking better, the fights have a much improved flow, and there are fewer weird pauses in the fights as you fighters kneel. Also, you can despense with all of the special considerations that are necessary if you allow knee fighting. The final, and biggest consideration for me, is that it isn't nearly as hard on my crappy knees.

Lower leg targets: We've tried that and so far it looks good. The knee is still not a target, but anything below is. Hasn't become a standard yet, but the initial results have been good. Suddenly everyone looks better 'cause they have greaves.

I strongly recommend the standing leg wounds system.

Hmmm.... reality...game...reality...game...? I'v never killed a person in armor before in real life. I play a game called the S.C.A. In rock sicciors paper no body wins in real life rock rules... Neeling is silly yes, so is standing on a dead or disabled leg JuSt AS SiLly. Please inform me when these live steel people do a real duo to the death I will study their moves and hopefully find a real salution to this great n horendus problem,
I also mean no ofense to the people with bad nees but... they seam to be the ones who dislike nealing the most hmmm.. I'm a body man I work on cars ,I do alot of neeling,and my nees hurt every day But il swing ratan until the day my nees blow out neeling or not.

also if you are neeling before me I have a big advantige over you, if you turtle up I WIN resistince is futile

maby the person on their nees should not be able to move at all, is that a little more realistic? the SCA is not full body plate armor.

Its been discussed here before...

But for the new folks.

Fighting from you knees does not closely resemble typical behavior of any form for pre 1600 armoured combat of which I am aware. In most descriptions we have available, combatants would typically continue until they were unable to fight due to major wounds and then stop, not continue fighting from there knees etc.

As a system to recreate or simulate armoured combat prior to 1600 “acted woundsâ€

I thought that lower leg shots put the recipient in more danger of hyper extension of the joint than striking other limbs (arms) because of the weight that was applied to the legs from standing. Would the lower leg not being a target take this into account? or am I grabbing for straws?

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't some one say that lower leg strikes used to be legal (back in days of yore) but there were a lot of injury problems with people launching grasscutter type attacks from their knees.

for my vote. If we as an armouring community can come up with adequate knee defenses, (and lets face it we should be able to) lets do it. I think it would level the playing field WRT Swords and shields vs great weapons. (or it might mean shields grow even bigger

You might have some trouble telling people not to hit the knee itself. Maybe I am lacking in skill but I, when attacking an opponents limb (arm) I cannot guarantee that I will not hit the elbow cop. Not hitting below 1" above the knee is easier because you can program your brain to swing your weapon at a minimum level. To try to program yourself to miss a 4" gap in a 6' fighter would be more difficult (IMHO).

Comments/insults/low velocity flying objects welcomed

Regards

Alexander

I have heard this explanation for the rule. I have also told by a man who was a member since the early 70's that the when he started his area still used whole leg targeting. According to his recollection they adopted upper leg only targeting because when you put someone on their knees they would throw a "grass cutter" at your shins and both would then be on their knees.

We have very little evidence of why the decision was made either way. My experience is that rules often have been made because an EM or SEM decides it would be a good idea, and not on empirical testing, this may or may not have occurred in this case.

Outside the SCA I have fought using full body targeting with rattan and not found it to be significantly more dangerous, but it does encourage the wearing of greaves. I would love to do formal testing within an SCA environment.

Animal or Bedlam, what are the current Tuchuck rules on target areas?

James of York wrote:Makes sense to me, some type of advantage should be awarded to the person who has taken his adversary's limb.

and

[quote="Asbjorn Johansen"]Quote from an Philladelphian watching an SCA fighter practice in the late 90's: “He gets hit in the leg so he has to give the other guy a blow job...?.â€

I don't think much of knee and below targeting. I really don't want someone using a 9 ft fiberglass spear thrusting at my feet/ankles/shins/knees on purpose. The transfer of momentum is different with thrusts and I think we would have an increased incidence of people having their knees bent the wrong way. Having been accidently thrusted in the knee a couple of times, I'm firmly of the opinion that it isn't any fun.

That being said, I also don't like going to you knees when struck in the leg. I would prefer to see more counted blows or other victory conditions.

Jurgen

I agree that I would not want a 9' spear thrust at a weight bearing ankle. I certainly would not want a 7'6" pole chopping at my weight bearing knee. It seems to me that the problem is more complicated than: can the limb+armour withstand the blow. Poleweapons can cleanly sweep a man off his feet or force unnatural weight shifts onto the knees and ankles, both of which could cause as much if not more damage than the initial blow.

It's not fighting from your knees, its fighting unhorsed... The horses are invisible and really short. Really! just keep telling this to yourself and the problem goes away.

Sean (wandering off the construction board 'cause class is REALLY boring)

Thorsten:

Hmmm.... reality...game...reality...game...? I'v never killed a person in armor before in real life. I play a game called the S.C.A. In rock sicciors paper no body wins in real life rock rules...

Yes, and to continue the analogy, there is a reason that we don't use paper-scissors-rock to model combat: we are trying to make our model as close to reality as we can with a reasonable degree of safety. We could model it with paper-scissor-rock; however, SCA-style armoured combat is an even better model. What we are discussing are ways to improve the quality of the model even further. Yes, the SCA system works okay; even so, if we could improve upon it, why not do so?

The major benefit of the fighting from your knees model is that it clearly marks the kneeling person as technically wounded. It also serves to limit movement, except for the problems described below.

The problems with the system are as follows:
1) Many argue that any wound that would require the fighter to fight from a squatting position would effectively remove him/her from the fight.

2) Because of safety and chivalry concerns, those fighting from their knees require special rules that do much to limit the effectiveness of the model from accurately mimicking reality. Examples of these rules include the following:
a) the "wounded" party cannot by overrun.
b) the "wounded" party cannot be circled.
c) the "wounded" party's legs are hereafter removed from play as an acceptable target.

3) Because of the additional rules, fighters adjust their fighting style to play the game, rather than acquire "real" fighting skills. For example, they stop defending their legs. Some fighters are actually more effective at fighting from their knees than they are standing.

4) Fighting from your knees damages the flow of combat, as well as its appearance.

5) The rules contain loopholes that allow fighters movement not in accordance with their "wounded" status. For example, fighters can lean back to lure opponents within distance and then spring up onto their knees; furthermore, they can knee walk at high speed.

Now, what can we do about this? What can we do to improve the quality of the model?

1) We can leave it as it is, and accept it as the best model? This is certainly the easiest, as so many people already know the rules. There is nothing morally wrong with us, but, as you can see, many of us are more interested in fighting skills than game-playing skills.

2) As you pointed out, we can just say that a legged person is immobilized, and therefore defeated. This rule would work fine. I could live with it if it were proposed. However, the SCA rules seem to be formed around the idea of both wounding and killing blows, with the idea of extended fights. The idea seems to be that wounds are not incapacitating injuries, that, for example, an arm wound is simulating a deep cut, not an amputation.

3) A standing leg wound rule is another option. I like it because it provides a middle ground. It's not perfect. For example, on a battlefield, it is not immediately apparent who is injured and who isn't. It is also easier for the less chivalrous to cheat and suddenly heal themselves. Nevertheless, a rules system such as I described in my earlier post manages, I believe to more accurately model an injured but not destroyed leg. There are several variations you could try upon the theme; that system is just the one that our group has come to enjoy using.

4) Go to a non-wounding, counted blows system. These are tons of fun, and I like to use them as well. They are not without their own disadvantages, though. Nevertheless, they are valid models that I recommend highly.

Now, as to your other comment:

I also mean no ofense to the people with bad nees but... they seam to be the ones who dislike nealing the most hmmm.. I'm a body man I work on cars ,I do alot of neeling,and my nees hurt every day But il swing ratan until the day my nees blow out neeling or not.

You do not know me from Adam, so I will let this slight pass. If the kneeling wounds system were the better, I would use it despite my knees, or I would simply yield once I was struck on the legs. But the fact is that the standing leg wounds system seems to be a better model of combat, and is one that seems to be more enjoyable, as all of my comrades have embraced it as their standard. After you use it for a while, you start to feel goofy fighting from your knees. Frankly, standing or kneeling I'm screwing up my legs fighting. My knee problems involve the cartilidge; if they were primary influence on my fighting philosophy, I would be one of those plastic paladins, floating around in my "magic" lightweight armour.