Petitioning the SCA EM re: Face Thrusts?

[BdeB]

Was that with a polearm when you fought Anton, Sir Malcolm? In the many years that i've known him, I never saw him fight with a spear, ever. His swords and greatswords did not have thrusting tips, so I can only assume you are talking about Polearm...

(off-topic-sorry) Umm..I know you were his Squire and all but I have seen that, so how come you haven't?

Well Trystan, I know you have been hit in the head alot, but I can assure you that outside of picking up a spear for training outside of an event, that Duke Anton, never, ever fought with a spear in mellee.

Anton felt that it was important for at least one of the more visable knights in the kingdom to fight exclusively sword and shield, because he was trying to send a message. Plainly, that is that the basic grunt on the army is there in the shield wall with a board, so why shouldn't the knights be as well. Spears get the glory kills, S&S keep the army alive.

He never fought spear. I can assure you of that. In fact, I know that he didn't even own a spear, cos' the only one that he owned that I ever saw was a gift from Duke Lucan, and he gave that spear to me.

Now Cuan and Micheal, et all, is another story. They fight with spear all the time.

As to the original topic, I don't want anyone to think that I have some big problem with hitting people too hard or something else.

I suppose that I will do at Gulf Wars what I have done at Pennsic for several years now. I just don't waste my time throwing face shots. In most melees they either aren't open or there is a better target open anyway.

Certainly, there are safe ones.

In fact the only face shots i've hit people with at Pennsic recently, that I can remember were chest shots that rode up into someone's grill....

[Maeryk]

In some kingdoms, marshals don't call people dead. We can only tell them where they've been hit.

And that, I think, is part of the problem. You are EITHER a safety monitor, OR you are a traffic cop, OR you are both.. but theres such fine lines..

Sure.. two Marshals are required to make sure you are "safe" in an authorization bout.. they say "Hmm.. you dont block so good. He just hit you.. that looked good to us.. " etc.. and thats fine.

But have you _EVER_ seen one do that in a tourney? Even when someone is OBVIOUSLY rhinoing? (And I have seen obvious rhinos in tourneys.. and on melee fields at Pennsic..)

I have seen guys, in full view of a Marshal, get bent DOUBLE with a pole blow, stand back up and say "light". I have seen them get moved backwards a foot with a spear and say "Tippy.. it slid off my breastplate" (yeah.. after you were in midear and twisting maybe..). The problem with "honor system" is that if the person doesnt have any.. it fails.

I dont know that marshals ARE in a position to step in.. and I'm not sure they should be.. but I do know that some FEEL they are and some feel they shouldnt be, and there should be an obvious and attainable standard at which point someone steps in and says "Milord _I_ FELT THAT.. TAKE IT!"

(Caveat: looks can sometimes be decieving.. it could have been flat, or the rattan could be whisk-broomy.. and that could be sorted out on the spot).

My biggest fear is that after taking out Mr "bent double with a pole" the guy who finally kills him doesnt jack his calibration back DOWN to reasonable before spotting me on the field. Adrenaline (and anger, sometimes) is really powerful.. and can be really dangerous.

Maeryk

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

Well Trystan, I know you have been hit in the head alot,

Durr...umm...huh...what was I saying again? ...oh yeah...

but I can assure you that outside of picking up a spear for training outside of an event, that Duke Anton, never, ever fought with a spear in melee

The time I'm thinking about was a formation of "The Queen's Spears" where 60 or so 'senior' fighters were formed up for a Pennsic Towne Battle while Anton was King (mid-to-late 90's?). Weren't you and I like shoulder-to-shoulder at some point? Pennsic battles tend to run together in my (battered) head so forgive my spotty memories - I guess that coulda been a polearm he was leaning on but I coulda swore it was a spear?

[BdeB]

The time I'm thinking about was a formation of "The Queen's Spears" where 60 or so 'senior' fighters were formed up for a Pennsic Towne Battle while Anton was King (mid-to-late 90's?). Weren't you and I like shoulder-to-shoulder at some point? Pennsic battles tend to run together in my (battered) head so forgive my spotty memories - I guess that coulda been a polearm he was leaning on but I coulda swore it was a spear?

Well The Queen's Spear has always been formed of senior Rapier Fighters who also fight heavy...Now Anton, Cuan, Forgal, etc. did authorize schlager when the fencers did that originally as a sign of solidarity, but once again. No, he was not a spearman, and was never a part of the Queen's spears.

Now leaning on a spear? Oh yeah, I can totally see that. I just wonder who it belonged to...?

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

Not arguin' just sayin - he was leading the QS personally - I was right there next to him (thought you were right there too?) - it was more than just rapier fighters - there were many white&red belts and "spear ringers" (guys like me and Bors Bodenson).
Our left was anchored on a building while we faced east towards the enemy - we were 3-4 spear ranks deep - that was the one where Anglesey attacked right into us...I can still picture Ugh's face after I folded him in half... - whatever Anton was leanin' on got pointed at the opponents when they rushed us...?

EDIT - oops - just saw where you said "who also fight heavy"

[Gabriel Morgan]

I have seen guys, in full view of a Marshal, get bent DOUBLE with a pole blow, stand back up and say "light". I have seen them get moved backwards a foot with a spear and say "Tippy.. it slid off my breastplate" (yeah.. after you were in midear and twisting maybe..). The problem with "honor system" is that if the person doesnt have any.. it fails.

If my opponent, given the opportunity, chooses to dishonor himself in front of Lady, Lord, and Crown (please feel free to play with the genders there) by acting like a churl, they are free to do so.

Let me repeat: people are free to act unchivalrously and dishonourably.

That is not a flaw in the system, that is a strength - that every man and woman, not HAVING to act like a Lord or Lady, be allowed to choose to do so. That some sadly do not choose to do honor to themselves and their own is not the system failing, it is them. That some, choosing poorly, cause dangerous situation is not the system failing, it is them.

Instead of cranking up the shots, I am always free to just bow and leave the field. If I am drawn into acting inappropriately by their inappropriate behavior, that is ME failing, not the system.

"Active" marshals won't make things safer, or cleaner, or better. They will simply rob my opponent and myself the opportunity to show us and others that, given the choice, sometimes men and women choose the higher path.

[Maeryk]

I would agree with that when you are fighting for sport.. but when theres a prize on the line.. then its cheating in order to win, and that changes my opinion on it.

if you can beat someone with skill, its a "fair fight".. (well, its not.. but you know what I mean).

But, if in the desire to win, you let lack of nerve endings make up for skill, then its unfair, and something should be done.

I do NOT care for a situation where someone wins the crown simply because no-one can hit them hard enough to satisfy them.. thats a very very leery situation to me.

Maeryk

[Trystan von Adler]

I remember when the East didn't have face thrusts......man Pennsic sucked, lol. But on a serious note, I agree with the current rule. I tell my folks that I work with to call them light, expect heavy. Goes for shots to the grill in general. Armor standards, regardless of armor worn, should be remembered. Even a light spear point to the open eye will put most men out of the fight, permanently. Just looking at it from that point of view is all. I don't expect my folks to be dieing from a stiff breeze, but a recognizable touch is good enough. As for the side and top rule, I don't mind, but spearmen should also be ready to call it as well. Last Gulf, I was struck with a good thrust and was not sure where it landed, so I decided to call it good, the good gentle on the other side got my attention and patted the top of his helm and said "no good." I got back in the wall and looked for that fellow afterwards, but could not find him. That is the spirit I do this for, good comradery and honorable fights.

I guess the point is this, we need to police our own. As was stated earlier. New rules mean nothing if we do not enforce it. Question every practice, calibrate face shots willingly, and keep the monsters off the spears if they can't control their force. Now here is a funny bit, for authorization in spear, have them strike a target, say a fruit or other designed target. If the target buckles, too hard, no authorize. Just another wild ass idea.

[Dmitriy]

Just wanted to clarify that I wasn't calling for active marshalling!

Marshals can get involved if the guy being hit has a problem and complains. Otherwise -- if you are not getting hit and not even doing the hitting, you don't get to call the shots.

If I get gacked, drop to the ground, and yell "wow! good shot!" then marshalls better keep their bumble-bee sticks to themselves . (If I yell "ow! my jaw!" than maybe a local hold is called for so that I can collect my fillings and get out of the fray )

Dmitriy Shelomin
Deputy Principality Marhsall, Mists

[Gaston de Vieuxchamps]

Several points...


"Directed touch" seems to me like the LEAST ambiguous rule for blow calling in our whole darn system. Did a spearman thrust it toward your face? Did it touch you? If both answeres are "Yes" then it was a good blow. Everyone should be able to understand this rule. If not, then I think we have more problems than what our face thrust standard should be.

Just because "directed touch" is the requirement for acknowldegement doesn't mean that anything more than a directed touch is breaking the rule. "Excessive" is still the same thing whether you do "positive force" or "directed touch", the only difference is that the force you are aiming for is lower and so you get more margin for error before you reach "excessive".

"Excessive" doesn't mean uncomfortable. It doesn't mean more than a touch. It means it was hard enough to hurt a reasonably armoured and reasonably fit fighter. Note that I said "reasonably...". The average fighter with the average chin strap and average neck strength with no history of trauma does not have to be hurt for the blow to be excessive. By the same token, if a pencil necked fighter who forgot his chinstrap and has a crappy helm gets hurt, that doesn't NECESSARILY mean it was excessive. If you've fought with face thrusts for a long time, then you should know what excessive is whether or not you have ever even heard of "directed touch". Directed touch only means the REQUIREMENT for blow calling is a touch. It is a good rule to help keep people safe, not a method to persecute anyone from any particular kingdom.

All of that said, I must admit "we" do hold some culpability. There are a lot of fighters who take the "directed touch" rule to mean that they should never get thrusted with any force at all. I'm working to change that and hopefully the rest of you will too. Also, there are guys that get acustomed to very light thrusts and then get lax about their gear (chinstraps weak, insufficient padding...) and finally get realy bent out of shape when a hard, but not excessive thrust comes in and makes them uncomfortable. Wear your chinstraps folks!!

One last thing, a face thrust is never "too hard" such that the fighter hit doesn't have to call it and keeps fighting. If it was directed, and it touched, it was good. Period. If it was ALSO excessive, you may need to take that up with the fighter that hit you, or gently ask him to tone it down, or go find a marshal, or scream for a medic, depending on the severity and the situation. But continuing the fight is never correct.

Lets get it right. There were SEVERAL broken noses and a lot of unecesary neck pain at the bridge battle at Pennsic last year and we need to do a lot better at Gulf Wars.

[Maeryk]

Lets get it right. There were SEVERAL broken noses and a lot of unecesary neck pain at the bridge battle at Pennsic last year and we need to do a lot better at Gulf Wars.

hell..there were the same thing when I was in the bridge at Pennsic 21. Cept we didnt have face thrusting, and they did.. to the point where I got nearly knocked over with an (illegal) face thrust and the giggling guy on the other side said "YOU DONT HAVE TO TAKE THAT!". Then did it again.
ANd while I was falling backwards again, plastered one into my cup (dont know that it was intentional.. I think it rode down the side of my heater) that I had no thought of continuing to fight one way or the other.

This is not a "new" problem.

Maeryk

[BdeB]

Just because "directed touch" is the requirement for acknowldegement doesn't mean that anything more than a directed touch is breaking the rule. "Excessive" is still the same thing whether you do "positive force" or "directed touch", the only difference is that the force you are aiming for is lower and so you get more margin for error before you reach "excessive".

Your Grace,

Thank you. That is the best worded explenation of the Rule that I've heard yet, and clarifies it quite a bit. It's quite different from the attitude of "anything harder and you will be thrown off the field" that we have been told. I assume of course, that those doing the instructing are just trying really hard to make sure the point gets across to the rank and file.

Again, my thanks.
Byram

[Jean Paul de Sens]

Just because "directed touch" is the requirement for acknowldegement doesn't mean that anything more than a directed touch is breaking the rule. "Excessive" is still the same thing whether you do "positive force" or "directed touch", the only difference is that the force you are aiming for is lower and so you get more margin for error before you reach "excessive".

Your Grace,

Thank you. That is the best worded explenation of the Rule that I've heard yet, and clarifies it quite a bit. It's quite different from the attitude of "anything harder and you will be thrown off the field" that we have been told. I assume of course, that those doing the instructing are just trying really hard to make sure the point gets across to the rank and file.

Again, my thanks.
Byram

I'd like to apoligize. I was indeed misunderstanding the meaning behind the directed touch.

My new question is, the Gulf Wars Web Site sez (http://www.gulfwars.org/heavy.html)

Face thrusts will be touch kill.

My question, is this in your opinion the same thrust as the directed touch?

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

yeah

[BdeB]

The definition that we have been getting is that the "directed" part means that it was a purposeful shot that does not slide off, but connects.

[Gaston de Vieuxchamps]

The definition that we have been getting is that the "directed" part means that it was a purposeful shot that does not slide off, but connects.

That's 90% right. If a thrust comes at your face and touches it but slides off, it's still good. What isn't good is if the thrust misses your face and then the side of the tip brushes you, or a guy blocking whacks you, or someone wedges their spear in from the side and it touches your face without him actually thrusting forward.

In other words, it has to be moving in the _direction_ of the point (at least a little bit) and the thruster has to be _directing_ an attack at you. Beyond that, it doesn't matter how light or whether it skips.

PS-NO thrusts to the side of the head are legal at Gulf Wars! That means spears, swords, arrows, bolts, etc.

Now, someone is going to write, "You don't HAVE to call a thrust to the side or top of the head, but if it strikes with sufficient force you probably should anyway." Please don't. It sounds like a good idea but it doesn't help matters. Please do not encourage people to take side or top of the head blows. Unfortunately, when you do, you also encourage spearmen to throw them, and since it's not touch kill there, they throw a little harder, then someone gets it in the face... and so on. If you think that a spear should be able to penetrate the side of your bascinet, you might be right, but we don't play that way and maybe you can comfort yourself with the idea that the spearman has to show a bit of accuracy along with his control, even though he doesn't have to show power.

If someone thrusts you with "suffecient force" on the side or top of the head, they failed to show accuracy and failed to achieve the light level of contact we are striving for, so don't reward him with your death. Save that for when he gently taps your face or gives you a medium "thud" in the body. That way spearmen are encouraged to behave correctly.

PPS-Come to our spear tournament of tuesday!! Fabulous prizes! Puissant foes! Your name in lights! Uh, well anyway come on out.

[Ulrich]

His Grace Gaston's explanation of directed touch is spot on. It's the same thing I heard Duke Eringlin <sp> the previous SEM and Earl Robert the current SEM say when they described directed touch (I've heard the description 3 times, 1 Lilies, 2 Gulf Wars)


Regards
Ulrich

-hope to see you all at Gulf Wars-

[Dmitriy]

Duke Gaston --
I was just about to agree with you, and then you said in the last post:

Please do not encourage people to take side or top of the head blows. Unfortunately, when you do, you also encourage spearmen to throw them, and since it's not touch kill there, they throw a little harder, then someone gets it in the face... and so on. If you think that a spear should be able to penetrate the side of your bascinet, you might be right, but we don't play that way and maybe you can comfort yourself with the idea that the spearman has to show a bit of accuracy along with his control, even though he doesn't have to show power.

So do you consider a thrust that would be normal power to the body to be acceptable to the face, or do you consider it excessive?

-Dmitriy

[Gaston de Vieuxchamps]

So do you consider a thrust that would be normal power to the body to be acceptable to the face, or do you consider it excessive?

Heh, heh. That depends on what constitutes "normal power to the body". Unlike face thrusts which are mandated to a clear and understandable universal standard, body thrusts vary wildly. Probably a lot more than sword blows even.

Therfore I can't really answer for certain but I would say that, on average, what people consider a "normal" body thrust is too hard. Not hard enough to get you in trouble, but hard enough that you need to take note and be more careful. It seems like most groups have widely varying force within the group when it comes to body thrusts. You can work your way up to meeting the force that one guy wants and then hit his buddy next to him with the same force and he'll scream bloody murder. As a spearman, I feel it is important to know who I'm hitting as often as possible so that I can try to get the force right. It shouldn't have to be that way, but it is. Sometimes it's just random too. Surprize a guy in the solar plexus while he's taking in a deep breath and his perception is very different than if he saw the same blow come in and hit his ribcage while he exhales. Then there's adrenaline.

Obviously patience is important. I also think maintaining touch standard to the face is important. That doesn't mean I endorse whining about every little helm movement.

The cynic in me says that many opponents of directed touch are motivated--whether they realize it or not-- by a hatred of any kind of standard that is objective and observable because it takes away their ability to have extra hit points when they want them. Then my better side says they must have a better reason than that.

[dukelogan]

gaston,

can you supply me with some specific facts regarding these several broken noses and strained necks. specifics like what caused these noses to be broken and where at pennsic this happened. were these battlefield injuries or market place sale induced injuries? weapons forms used, checks of equipment, etc. i am curious.

regards
logan

Several points...



Lets get it right. There were SEVERAL broken noses and a lot of unecesary neck pain at the bridge battle at Pennsic last year and we need to do a lot better at Gulf Wars.

[mrks]

darn good thread....

the directed touch kingdoms seem to have some hecka wimpy helm padding techiniues.

1/2 of blue camper foam or any foam for that matter will not protect your skull from repeated impacts let alone a hard thrust to the face.

we may currently have directed touch but accidents happen and shouldnt we be prepared for the possibility of someone "accidently hittin too hard" or maybe running into a polearm or spear.

yaya yell at me all you want but a 1/2" is just not enough in my opinion... unlss you have a 17lb helmet.

[Odo]

I don't care how much padding you have in your helmet, a shot that is too hard is exactly that. I have never had an injury from a spear thrust (thank god), but I have been ganked way too hard. The only way to prevent injury is not adding more padding or a heavier helm, but a system that connects the head to the body (like a bevor). And that is not a requirement.

I probably will never change my mind regarding this aspect of the game. Mainly because I work and support my family. I don't want a broken neck. And this is one measure that I can support to help my chances.

Odo

[dukelogan]

in case gaston doesnt make it back to this thread i thought i would ask if anyone can substantiate his claim regarding the bridge last year? not hearsay but actual facts. gaston seems to have some information that i missed and if its true then we obviously have an issue with helmets improperly inspected (likely) or people thrusting so hard to the face that they are able to cause catastrophic failures to legal equipment (unlikely).

regards
logan

gaston,

can you supply me with some specific facts regarding these several broken noses and strained necks. specifics like what caused these noses to be broken and where at pennsic this happened. were these battlefield injuries or market place sale induced injuries? weapons forms used, checks of equipment, etc. i am curious.

regards
logan

Several points...



Lets get it right. There were SEVERAL broken noses and a lot of unecesary neck pain at the bridge battle at Pennsic last year and we need to do a lot better at Gulf Wars.

[Heairn]

There are actually two issues here:

"broken noses" would be equipment failure. Your helm should protect your face.. period.

"strained necks" are a calibration issue. I don't care HOW well padded your helm is.. your neck will deflect under impact to your head. Too much deflection = sore neck = too hard a blow.

There is also a difference between the delivery of a blow vs. a thrust. Most blows will only deliver a marginal deflection to the head, as the force will then be eaten up by the rattan deformation. Even the location on the blade will vary the amount of force delivered to the target. A shot at the bottom 1/3 of the sword will hit "harder" than one at the top 1/3, as it's nearer the application point and has less deflection available to it.

However, spears do NOT deflect in the linear direction, so your head will deflect. So a spear may deliver much more effective force to a target with much less power applied.

Just some food for thought.

Malcolm

[Odo]

Agreed Malcolm. I am maily only talking of spear thrusts. Sword shots are a completely different matter altogether. Although, a thrust from a sword can have the unintended effect of hitting too hard, the likelyhood is not as much of an issue.

Odo

[dukelogan]

not known for my patience i dug a little deeper myself. i spoke with count valharic who was in charge of all marshals courts at pennsic last year and asked him. he said he heard of no issues with any related injuries at the bridge. he then contacted palymar (pennsic em) and asked him to look into it. he did and said that the only injuries that were reported (and thus the only ones that matter) were a cut brow and a broken nose on the 2nd day of the fortress battle. both being caused by helmet failures and, as such, the responsibility of the wearer of the helm. he said that there were no other broken noses reported to the chiurgeons or to the marshals offices.

we really need to be careful when we repeat information that we hear third hand and then call for action. this happens all too often in the sca and i am not targeting gaston in any way. but his serves as a great example of why we need to verify information and not just take someones word for it. i am sure that gaston heard this from "reliable" sources who heard it from "reliable" sources who heard it from, etc etc. one broken nose at the fortress can easily turn into several at the bridge and a few strained necks thrown in for good measure. but the facts dont support it.

so if guys at gulf wars check their helms and make sure they are in good working order and the guys with spears do exactly the same things as the guys with spears did at pennsic, all will be fine.

regards
logan

in case gaston doesnt make it back to this thread i thought i would ask if anyone can substantiate his claim regarding the bridge last year? not hearsay but actual facts. gaston seems to have some information that i missed and if its true then we obviously have an issue with helmets improperly inspected (likely) or people thrusting so hard to the face that they are able to cause catastrophic failures to legal equipment (unlikely).

regards
logan

gaston,

can you supply me with some specific facts regarding these several broken noses and strained necks. specifics like what caused these noses to be broken and where at pennsic this happened. were these battlefield injuries or market place sale induced injuries? weapons forms used, checks of equipment, etc. i am curious.

regards
logan

Several points...



Lets get it right. There were SEVERAL broken noses and a lot of unecesary neck pain at the bridge battle at Pennsic last year and we need to do a lot better at Gulf Wars.

[Odo]

so if guys at gulf wars check their helms and make sure they are in good working order and the guys with spears do exactly the same things as the guys with spears did at pennsic, all will be fine.

regards
logan

We can only hope.

Odo

[dukelogan]

not sure i hope for anything but the guys doing the same thing at their opponents as was done at pennsic. in other words, guys who fight in helms with bad chin straps or bad padding should get their brows cut and their noses broken. its a contact sport after all.

got my nose broken several times as a boxer but never while on the chess team. so ya gotta be smart enough to choose the sport and accept the risks. i know i have taken some top of the power chart face thrusts (usually a combo of both myself and my opponent moving or whatever) and i have never received an injury to my face because of it. course i do have me a fine helm.

regards
logan

so if guys at gulf wars check their helms and make sure they are in good working order and the guys with spears do exactly the same things as the guys with spears did at pennsic, all will be fine.

regards
logan

We can only hope.

Odo

[Vitus von Atzinger]

I was once hit so hard with a face thrust that my upper and lower jaws slammed together, and I spit out a shard of one of my teeth. This was at Pennsic, of course. I had a huge temper tantrum, and because I git mad suddenly I was holding the a-hole ball.

[Morgan]

My only logical issue with this deffinition is that I have to throw a shot a lot harder than "touch" to get it to "slide off." Otherwise, I have no problem understanding this.

The definition that we have been getting is that the "directed" part means that it was a purposeful shot that does not slide off, but connects.

[Sir Brendan TT]

Easy.

There is only one way to go (imho) face thrust = head thrust.

Let's not have people twisting their noggins so that they can ignore a beautfully controlled face thrust by catching it on the side of the helmet.

The total stupidity of this action should by-pass any rule.

Safety is basically the purpose of alll rules regarding heavy combat.

B

[hjalmr]

I feel that face thrusting should be handled like any other blow -a firm pop, or push. I HATE the touch kill rule here in meridies. I know several people who wear helmets that cannot handle an excesive thrust because they believe that they will only recieve a touch kill thrust and anything harder results in a backlash from the marshals for excesive force. I knocked out two front teeth from a close friend at an event recently because his helmet was not safe. It passed inspection, but it could not handle anything but a touch and the situation caused me to hit him a little harder then I wanted too. He still uses this helmet and he has been hurt several times since then. The helmet still passes at every event he attends.
I once had a helmet that worked fine for me until the day I got face thrusted way too hard. The thrust pushed my helmet back and drove the nasel ridge about an inch into my nose. Blood gushed out as I watched the pretty little spots dance before my eyes and listened to the nearby SCAers speak to me in tongues. I not only broke my nose, but I lost a small chip of thecartlige(sp?) in the process. I have no regrets in buying a new, safer helmet.

On another note. It is very easy to get a helmet that protects you from hard thrusts just like regular armor protects you from hard blows. I have been knocked clear off my feet several times from opponents who did not mean to hurt me and I have never been injured from these otherwise excessive thrusts because my latest helmet is safe. Excessive thrusters can be delt with in the same way that excessive swingers are delt with -ban them!

[broinnfinn]

Easy.

There is only one way to go (imho) face thrust = head thrust.

Let's not have people twisting their noggins so that they can ignore a beautfully controlled face thrust by catching it on the side of the helmet.

The total stupidity of this action should by-pass any rule.

Safety is basically the purpose of alll rules regarding heavy combat.

B

Actually if it is done on purpose, in many Kingdoms, it is considered target substitution, and the shot must be taken, just as if you pulled a calf up into a good leg shot.

Broinnfinn

[hjalmr]

Actually it is different, because the side of the head is still a legal target and the calf is not. The rules state (I believe) that a fighter cannot purposely block a blow with an illegal target - such as the lower leg, or the wrist. It would be more similar to someone reaching up to sacrificing an arm rather then taking the head shot that is about to strike them.

I also know many fighters, mostly knights, who teach the "looking down/away to avoid the face thrust" maneuver.
I use to find it unchivilrous, but now I agree with it. I don't like it since many nasal helmets worn during the time that our chainmail standard takes place do not have side plates, but I don't think it's wrong anymore because people are technically using whats avaliable in order to survive/win.

<<< Actually if it is done on purpose, in many Kingdoms, it is consideed target substitution, and the shot must be taken, just as if you pulled a calf up into a good leg shot.

Broinnfinn >>>

[dukelogan]

wow. all i can say is wow. the helm is a legal target and is proof against a thrust. one of the few realistic parts of sca combat and you wish it gone. you suggest that if you see a thrust coming at your face, and you have time to move your face from being hit, you should stand still and take the hit? wow. and you suggest not doing so is "total stupidity"?

please tell me im simply misunderstanding you (again).

regards
logan

Easy.

There is only one way to go (imho) face thrust = head thrust.

Let's not have people twisting their noggins so that they can ignore a beautfully controlled face thrust by catching it on the side of the helmet.

The total stupidity of this action should by-pass any rule.

Safety is basically the purpose of alll rules regarding heavy combat.

B