The Armour Archive

I'm curious as to the response I might get here...

Would there be support for a petition to the Society Earl Marshall to replace the "directed touch" to something more like "positive force"?

I, of course, understand the risk and nature of face thrusts and the movement to limit them. But I think the rules "change" or "enforcement" have gone too far.

This weekend, at a War Practice, I received a good, solid face thrust from my friend, Sir Arraydd while fighting spear vs. spear on a bridge.

I felt like a choad when I had to inform him that it was good, but that if we were doing "directed touch" it was too hard and that he would get complaints about it at Wars.

Sigh.

If we are looking to change something in the SCA, Duke Alaric, lets start here.

I would be against any rule changes regarding face thrusts. It is not a happy feeling watching someone being carried off the field and taken to the emergency room in an ambulance because of a face thrust gone bad.

True enough, this is the exception not the rule. But opening up the force required would also have the effect of escalating the amount of force thrown.

I would like to comment on the face thrust that you received over the weekend. Since I was not there, and did not actually take the shot, I cannot comment on if it was excessive or not. I think that you may be taking the spirit of the law too far.

If the shot was good, what made it excessive. Because it was harder than a touch? Outside of the rules I do believe. Was it excessive because it cranked your head back so far that you had whiplash? Excessive.

So the rule states directed touch. That doesn't mean that something harder is not acceptable, and most people will take the shot as intended. It is only when the thrust is excessive where I think the vast majority of people will comment on it.

Just my thoughts.

Odo

People still get carried off the field with "directed touch" as our alleged level of force. I personally got a concussion at Dark Wars in Meridies a few years back. I know I'm not the only one.

That said, why not up the force just a bit? The term directed touch is just to vague in my opinion. But the SCA seems to be fond of vague terms.

Bran

Just DEFINE it -

"If your helm and head is moved due to the impact of the thrust on your grill"

Don't say "Must be moved "x" inches", or you'll see THAT number change from kingdom to kingdom. don't say "solid blow" - we ALL know where that will end up.

You better KNOW when you get hit in the face. You choose not to take it, you are cheating.

Period.

Just DEFINE it -

"If your helm and head is moved due to the impact of the thrust on your grill"

Don't say "Must be moved "x" inches", or you'll see THAT number change from kingdom to kingdom. don't say "solid blow" - we ALL know where that will end up.

You better KNOW when you get hit in the face. You choose not to take it, you are cheating.

Period.

You mean the SEM who said something along the lines of "I am declaring a war against face thrusts"? (sorry I can't get the exact quote, it was on the pennsic 32 site).
I don't think you'd get too far. Even if there are whole KINGDOMS who've never played with a touch-kill rule, have had face-thrusts since AS-single digits, and don't carry anyone off on stretchers. Cause they are a figment of my imagination, I guess.

Anyway -- by society rules, we are required to accept touches. That doesn't mean anything more than a touch is excessive. A good thrust is still a good thrust.

Dmitriy Shelomin

Was that the SEM that said that? I thought it was just the Pennsic MIC.
Well there may have been a "war against face thrusts" but that did not stop someone from charging into my helm full force with their spear at the first castle battle. Oh well.

Dmitriy wrote:You mean the SEM who said something along the lines of "I am declaring a war against face thrusts"? (sorry I can't get the exact quote, it was on the pennsic 32 site).
I don't think you'd get too far. Even if there are whole KINGDOMS who've never played with a touch-kill rule, have had face-thrusts since AS-single digits, and don't carry anyone off on stretchers. Cause they are a figment of my imagination, I guess.

Anyway -- by society rules, we are required to accept touches. That doesn't mean anything more than a touch is excessive. A good thrust is still a good thrust.

Dmitriy Shelomin

Odo wrote:I would like to comment on the face thrust that you received over the weekend. Since I was not there, and did not actually take the shot, I cannot comment on if it was excessive or not. I think that you may be taking the spirit of the law too far.

If the shot was good, what made it excessive. Because it was harder than a touch? Outside of the rules I do believe. Was it excessive because it cranked your head back so far that you had whiplash? Excessive.

So the rule states directed touch. That doesn't mean that something harder is not acceptable, and most people will take the shot as intended. It is only when the thrust is excessive where I think the vast majority of people will comment on it.

Just my thoughts.

Odo

The shot was well within the acceptable bounds of what I have been used to receiving as a good blow for the last 10 years or so, under Atlantia's "Positive Force" description.

It was not excessive, it did not give me whiplash.
I was in no danger. It was however, far greater than a "directed touch".

However, since we, as a Kingdom have been told that we are in the wrong, and we are trying to address that by active commentary and constant reminders, espically during training for interkingdom wars, so I felt that I _had_ to say something about it. (Our Prince had given a lecture on the subject, not five minutes before hand)

I'd love to be able to agree with you, Your Grace. But as long as there are certain marshalls that target Atlantians, and others for this practice we need to make sure that we are better than right so that there is no question, and no confusion.

I'm about to drive over 12 hours to Gulf Wars. If I throw a shot from maximum range and I hit harder, or perhaps you step into the shot and it hits harder than a "directed touch" are you going to give me the benefit of the doubt?

What if thru a freak accident, it happens twice? I'm out for the war, and hanging out in camp. (Well, ok, I think I would head back to New Orleans, but MAN would that suck)

Please understand, i'm all for safety. I'm also for consistancy, which is where I think we are lacking alot of times.

I believe that as an experienced spearman, I have the ability to hit my target with the required force, let's say 95% of the time.

I have no illusions that everyone has that same level of control. Personally, some of the hardest face thrusts that i've ever recieved were at a Gulf Wars, a few years ago fighting against Trimaris and it's allies.

That doesn't mean that Trimarians are evil, or whatever. It means that those particular fighters were hitting too hard on that given day.

Eh.

I think i'm wandering.


Anyway, I think that I, and others that have fought under a slightly different standard are at a greater risk of hitting too hard, because it's just not what we are used to. In some ways we might be more dangerous than before...

Pennsic MIC quoted a message from the SEM and then said "therefore, touch-kill will be the standard at Pennsic"

-D

Irish wrote:Just DEFINE it -

"If your helm and head is moved due to the impact of the thrust on your grill"

That isn't "directed touch" that is "positive force." IMO, directed touch means "any 'intended' contact by a spear to a face" which is very very difficult for a sword and shieldman on a line to register UNLESS he looks the shot into his face. Even positve force is hard to distinguish as a bystanding mashal since so many of the better spear fighters move back just enough that contact is never really made.

Colin G

I will support a wording change to postive force type of thing. I will NOT support simply hitting any harder. I accept a touch to the grill and dont whine if I get harder. If I lean into it then oh well, stuff happens. I will however complain if someone once again nails me in the face so hard they make my nose bleed and then attempt to blame me for "leaning into it" as one royal person did at Pennsic 32. Or snaps my chinstrap (which I had replaced the day before) with a spear charge as happened in another melee. My helm does not touch my face and in fact when the marshalls check it most are suprised at how hard I push into their hand during the helm check.

My 2 ha'pennies
Lachlann

I believe that this would not have been a problem. At least not if I was hit with the shot. We all get hit hard, it is the nature of the game. I also have no problem saying that a shot was too hard (my favorite line is "That was a little stiff", but I take the shot.

I do usually give the benefit of the doubt to folks who hit really hard. I have done so in the past, and it sucks. Your opponent stepping into the shot, not having your range addressed properly, etc. It happens. I guess it would totally depend on the reaction that I was given by the person who hit me too hard.

I understand your concerns. I hope that you enjoy Gulf Wars and don't run into too many marshalls who are out to target Atlantians. That just plain sucks.

But, I am still against upping the level of force required to call a face thrust (ESPECIALLY with a spear).

Odo

BdeB wrote:The shot was well within the acceptable bounds of what I have been used to receiving as a good blow for the last 10 years or so, under Atlantia's "Positive Force" description.

It was not excessive, it did not give me whiplash.
I was in no danger. It was however, far greater than a "directed touch".

However, since we, as a Kingdom have been told that we are in the wrong, and we are trying to address that by active commentary and constant reminders, espically during training for interkingdom wars, so I felt that I _had_ to say something about it. (Our Prince had given a lecture on the subject, not five minutes before hand)

I'd love to be able to agree with you, Your Grace. But as long as there are certain marshalls that target Atlantians, and others for this practice we need to make sure that we are better than right so that there is no question, and no confusion.

I'm about to drive over 12 hours to Gulf Wars. If I throw a shot from maximum range and I hit harder, or perhaps you step into the shot and it hits harder than a "directed touch" are you going to give me the benefit of the doubt?

What if thru a freak accident, it happens twice? I'm out for the war, and hanging out in camp. (Well, ok, I think I would head back to New Orleans, but MAN would that suck)

Please understand, i'm all for safety. I'm also for consistancy, which is where I think we are lacking alot of times.

I believe that as an experienced spearman, I have the ability to hit my target with the required force, let's say 95% of the time.

I have no illusions that everyone has that same level of control. Personally, some of the hardest face thrusts that i've ever recieved were at a Gulf Wars, a few years ago fighting against Trimaris and it's allies.

That doesn't mean that Trimarians are evil, or whatever. It means that those particular fighters were hitting too hard on that given day.

Eh.

I think i'm wandering.


Anyway, I think that I, and others that have fought under a slightly different standard are at a greater risk of hitting too hard, because it's just not what we are used to. In some ways we might be more dangerous than before...

When you guys fight over this topic, it always kinda amazes me. I play in the Principality of Avacal, in AnTir. We are not a real gentle place and play as hard as most places. When Uber-Dukes come up from Seattle, we don't have any problem with them being rhinos or not taking our shots. (We have problems because they are pretty good). Anyways, I think we hit just fine.

Face thrusts are not frowned on here. They are completely acceptable and considered a legitimate shot. They have to be hard enough to count but to so hard they injure. I have never seen any of these horror stories around here that you guys talk about. I have been playing for about 5 years and have travelled out of Kingdom a bit. We can use up to 12' fiberglass spears. I can't remember any trips to hospitals or people getting blown 10' back from shield wall. Does this really happen out east? What are you guys doing out there? Sounds like maybe the rules aren't the problem to me. Are there possibly a small number of unsafe fighters that cause problems for everyone. Maybe it's just a training issue that could be corrected.

Hrogn

I think the quote was "excessive face thrusts", but what do I know.

One thing I need to address. I may have misunderstood what you wrote. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I read "don't carry anyone off on stretchers. Cause they are a figment of my imagination, I guess." and took it to mean that you have never seen anyone carried off the field in a stretcher. I have.

When I was King at GW's 11, a friend of mine was hit extremely hard, and it took six of us plus the paramedics to carry his fat ass out of the ravine on a stretcher. He suffered severe whiplash and couldn't fight for many months. I felt responsible because the battle was getting carried away with many excessive shots from both sides (how about a lascerated liver?). It was sickening and I didn't stop the fight. So I carried the guilt.

Odo

Dmitriy wrote:You mean the SEM who said something along the lines of "I am declaring a war against face thrusts"? (sorry I can't get the exact quote, it was on the pennsic 32 site).
I don't think you'd get too far. Even if there are whole KINGDOMS who've never played with a touch-kill rule, have had face-thrusts since AS-single digits, and don't carry anyone off on stretchers. Cause they are a figment of my imagination, I guess.

Anyway -- by society rules, we are required to accept touches. That doesn't mean anything more than a touch is excessive. A good thrust is still a good thrust.

Dmitriy Shelomin

I think an increasing "tempo" of a rez battle can cause increased blow force coming from a frustrated spearman. If the opposing side isn't liking (i.e. taking) shots that are thrown at a 5 (on a scale of 1-10) the spearmen naturally turn it up a notch. As a result, marshal's attention is pulled to the spearman's "sin" as oppose to the shieldman (or other spearman). So, if you are going to throw one out, throw them both out. Unless of course you think only spearmen cheat.

Colin G

Odo -- first off, hi . We met at Pennsic, when You, myself, and Sir Maximillian were the only ones on the pick up field. I was Prince of the Mists then, and you were both Kings.

You may be right, the quote could have been "excessive face thrusts." The page is down. However, next to a rule about touch-kill face thrusts, it sure looks like what he thinks is excessive and what I think is excessive are very different things. "I declare war" in general means "I am not listening and I will do what I want to do cause I am in the high chair."

Regarding the stretchers -- I absolutely believe you that it's possible, and that you've seen it. It sounds like a horrible thing. I understand that it happened in the area where the side of the face is proof, and the top of the head is proof, and touch-kill to the face is the norm?
I haven't seen it here, where the whole head is a valid target, and the standard level for a face-thrust is "lighter than to the body" -- not a touch. We like a solid hit. If someone is throwing way too hard, much like with swords, axes, and whatnot, they get a talking to.

So I think it's not the rules that cause problems as you describe, it's specific people who should be reprimanded.

The touch-kill rule as a method of preventing excessive thrusts is as redundant as the 90-degree rule for polearms was. There's already a rule for this sort of thing. The excessive force rule.

A friend of mine once spent an evening arguing with a fellow who appeared very pro touch-kill. "If it even grazes me," that sort of thing. The next day, when they found themselves on opposite sides in a battle, it turned out that he must have meant "if it even grazes the back of my skull from the inside."

Policy gets made, and it gets ignored. More policy is not the answer.

-Dmitriy
counting down to Duke Gaston's appearance

Ah Sir Dmitriy, your post always make me smile....

I remember you well Dmitry. And very nice of you not to tell the truth of me sitting around instead of fighting.

I agree with alot of what you write. We cannot legislate good behaviour. But I cannot see a way to make this correct. Directed touch is specific enough for me. I don't like positive force, because that could also mean "touching the back of the skull from the inside" (very nice).

I don't have all the answers, I don't even have most of the answers, but I like the way this one is written.

Odo

Is there really a problem with face thrusts?

I mean if I get beat I take the shot- it could be ultra light, or hard. If it is light, I look at the guy, and if he gives me the "hi sign" I know he could have juiced me and I take it. If it is hard, then I know it was good. I don't like shots that are "too hard" to hit me anywhere.

So, before we march to Washington on this what is our real purpose? Is it to just change the wording? Or change how we play in general?

Alaric

Taken from another thread about a "controversial weapons convention:"

..there is a simple solution. Ban it all.

Touch, "positive force," "hard as 1-hand to the body," "armor proof" issues all go byebye.

....That said....

..Face thrusts have been, and always will be, an issue. It is a situation where regional differences in calibration are focused in an area that is arguably not just unsafe, but downright dangerous. I've had a no-name fighter in the morass that was the "town battle" at Pennsic lay me flat out on my back from a face shot. I've had Duke Anton and Duke Cuan each deliver blows that have done the same. In each case, it was my own fault. I was either thrusting or moving in the opposite direction of the incoming shot. WHUMP. Stars and dirt before my eyes. I got up, shook it off and went back to rezz point. It's part of the accepted risks of the game.

The issue is, not everyone has the reactions and control that Anton or Cuan display. I *know* it wasn't their intent to take my head off and I also know that it was my own lack of battlefield attention that dropped me. But... did the Marshals know that? It certainly wouldn't have seemed so unless I happened to be the focus of attention at the moment of impact. All the marshal would have heard was "he took a spear to the face" ...oooooo Evil spearman! Get the banned from this field forthwith! Ptooie.

Point being.. this is a very slippery slope..and it's my opinion that if we're going to have it.. then define "positive force" as gently as your conventions will allow. If you can touch my nose when I'm fighting, then BOY did I screw up and miss the enemy that was obviously right in my face. I don't need to get a head-rockin' for that one.

Malcolm

Heairn wrote: I've had Duke Anton and Duke Cuan each deliver blows that have done the same. In each case, it was my own fault. I was either thrusting or moving in the opposite direction of the incoming shot. WHUMP. Stars and dirt before my eyes. I got up, shook it off and went back to rezz point. It's part of the accepted risks of the game.
Malcolm

Was that with a polearm when you fought Anton, Sir Malcolm? In the many years that i've known him, I never saw him fight with a spear, ever. His swords and greatswords did not have thrusting tips, so I can only assume you are talking about Polearm...

While on my way home from work today I was thinking of this topic. Not so much the original thread, but the ramifications of changing the wording or removing the rule altogether and policing the excessive force offenders on the field.

Let's talk real quick about the latter. If marshal are to be effective at getting rid of the few who are excessive, then we run the risk of having folks really pissed at the marshals (BdeB has already mentioned not wanting to be thrown off the field by the marshals at Gulf Wars because of this). Do we allow them to take a more active role? BTW, I have never had a problem with the marshals at Gulf Wars.

If we change the wording, do you change the intent. I believe the spirit of this rule is to keep injuries to a bare minimum. Will this change with a word change? I don't know but I would hate to see it happen. For the most part, nobody wants to injure another person on the field. So what is the problem with leaving it the way it is and practicing the spirit of the rule?

Odo

BdeB wrote:Was that with a polearm when you fought Anton, Sir Malcolm? In the many years that i've known him, I never saw him fight with a spear, ever. His swords and greatswords did not have thrusting tips, so I can only assume you are talking about Polearm...

Yep.. it was a Polearm. At Assessment in Black Diamond.

Malcolm

Personally I strap my helmet, fix my gorget, and set my padding to accept an excessive spear thrust.

I tend to be a sprinter on the field. A spearman leveling his weapon as I close has taken me completely off my feet and laid me out on my back. I shake out the cobwebs, curl into a defesive death, and wait for the marshals tap out. This happened to me enough and got enough reaction from my friends on the sidelines at Pennsic, that I often do this to wow a crowd in a demo. Once, I even staged it so my own wife took me off my feet with a face thrust.

As much as I hate tempting fate, to this point, I have not been injured as a result of extreme impacts to the grill. My gear is set up to take it, and I inspect it before and after every practice.

I am not upset by the directed touch standard. If I both see the tip and feel something, I take the thrust. What concerns me is by expecting all the variables of combat to stop for the 1/4 to 1/2 second a spear thrust takes is asking for trouble. There is temptation, and I have dealt with it first hand, of armoring to the calibration standard.

"I don't need to worry about that, noone will thrust me that hard."

"Yeah, it touches my nose, but you had to push my grill to make it touch."

"Nah, I don't need to check his gear, its the same armor he's been wearing for years."

These are not uncommon things to hear, but are the first step in path that can lead to the back of an ambulance. While I believe that face calibration should be lighter than the rest of the body, the face should be protected better than most parts of the body.

When a fighter gets hurt, everyone suffers. The injured of course, but think about the what-ifs going through the attacker's mind? Then the standards get 'nerfed' and armor starts becoming less important. People shed armor for advantage, and that continues the cycle giving more opportunity for someone to get hurt.

My opinion is that we should really focus on our armor and our armor inspections. Noone with unsafe armor should be allowed on the field, period.

Calibration should be judged with equal weight given to force of strike and intent to harm. This is a very physical sport. Accidents and mistakes happen, we should be prepared for them, not everyone that 'strikes excessively' intended to. Conversely, if one of my guys starts getting hot headed, I give them the chance to calm down by talking to them, and if that doesn't work, I send them back to camp, before someone gets hurt.

Just my thoughts,
Lothar

FOLKS THERE IS LITTLE PERSONAL RESPONCIBILITY IN THE CURRENT SCA.

that being said you can blame the rules and blame the weapons but the truth is the people are being injured by people.

those injuring them need to be held accountable. there is currently little control and accountability on the field these days.

I have a 10 1/2 pound extremely well padded helm and at estrella I was generously given a concussion by some nice fighter I never even saw. I am a pretty good spear fighter to boot.

so whats the problem. I feel it is mostly caused by the current shitty positive force rules. people are fighting mixed rules. many kingdoms do not use directed touch but use the old way of doing things. when those using directed touch and those using the old standards... are brought together there is a BIG PROBLEM.

people get frustrated by hitting and not calling so the force ramps up. when a touchie gets hit by a regular shotie... then there is a problem and he responds in kind usually. this leads to the current esculations we are seeing.

if they went back to the old rules and started pulling cards from those who injure people there would be less problems. injure someone and that person can request to have your card pulled for six months. which will be carried out without chance of reversal. if you can convince the guy hurt to give you another chance so be it. this will let the hardcore forgive each other and let the ones who are lesser to have accountability.

injure someone = six months revoking of your card.
bad helm padding - six months revoking of your card. poor armour is as much or worse of a problem as excessive force is.

now we suddenly have accountability.

now second problem. few people know how to pad and strap their helms properly. taekwando padding, a half inch of blue foam and a poorly designed helm. mix these together and people are going to get concussions. thats the bottom line. the reasons the regular force kingdoms have little problem with head injuries is they have better padded helms than the touchie kingdoms. ever went around and looked inthe helms at pennsic. holy crud there alot of poorly paddded helms out there. this doesnt change the fact we have trouble with the current problem of mixed callingbut it is a symptom.

mrks wrote:if they went back to the old rules and started pulling cards from those who injure people there would be less problems. injure someone and that person can request to have your card pulled for six months. which will be carried out without chance of reversal. if you can convince the guy hurt to give you another chance so be it. this will let the hardcore forgive each other and let the ones who are lesser to have accountability.

injure someone = six months revoking of your card.
bad helm padding = six months revoking of your card. poor armour is as much or worse of a problem as excessive force is.

now we suddenly have accountability.

I could see a marshal who pulled someone's card for excessive force standing tall before the same court on charges of "excessive marshalling." While the above idea has merit in theory, no one should ever have their card pulled 1) for a first offense (per war), or 2) by the testimony of a single marshal (I'd say at least 3 marshals, each from different kingdoms, but that is just me).

If you hit somebody too hard with a face thrust, just say that you are sorry. If they look a bit pissed-off just freakin' apologize.
Sheesh.
I hit some poor guy last year at Gulf Wars over the short part of the wall. I don't know how I really did it, since I can barely see over it. I seriously jacked the hell out of him. I just yelled "I am SO SORRY!!"
Positive force is what I am after- positive force and some damn CONTROL plus some respect for each other would be nice.

Chin cup with four-point attachment. I tend to over-engineer.

As for the suggestion to pull cards, I have problems with the idea of pulling someone's card over an injury to an opponent, without knowing the details. Like, if a guy gets his arm busted while wearing soft leather vambraces, I'd just shrug my shoulders and say them's the breaks.
I have no doubt there are people out there who are overpowering their thrusts, or underestimating the amount of power they have when thrusting at a run, or underestimating the power that they have when they are thrusting at an opponent who is also running at them (the latter two being, I believe the most common situations); I also believe, however, that way too many fighters are out there with minimal padding and string chin cups.

I dont care how you pad your helmet, im sure I can take it off your head in one shot. excessive is still gonna happen its still easier to judge if its touch. 1-10 spear power than to judge 8-10.

I agree with odo.

And now, once again, for those who have trouble with English:

I have no doubt there are people out there who are overpowering their thrusts, or underestimating the amount of power they have when thrusting at a run, or underestimating the power that they have when they are thrusting at an opponent who is also running at them (the latter two being, I believe the most common situations);

So yes, I'm sure you could knock my helmet off/crush my helmet/grind my bones to make your bread you big tough man you, but that does not address my main point: Although, granted, there are people who are hitting too hard, many of the injuries are, in my opinion, the result of lazy strapping and padding techniques. For my part, I would like to see those addressed every bit as much I would like to see the striking power restrained.

I may have been fortunate: I can think of almost know-face thrust experiences -- even back in the states -- that were the result of malicious intent on the part of my opponent. The times that I have been really rocked have been those in which we were rushing towards each other and he slipped on past my guard.

Want to fix face thrusts at Gulf Wars? Get rid of the "side (and back and top) of the helm is proof" rule. Now, I don't mind when I hit above the brow on a helm being told that isn't good. But the side?

Then you get the guys who turn their head to take a face thrust to the side of the helm where they don't have to take the shot. Excellent idea. If you want to get injured.

Do this experiment. With your head squarely on your shoulders facing forward, tilt your head forward, backward and side to side. Measure how far you can move your head.

Now turn your head so you're looking as far over your shoulder as possible, ala Linda Blair. NOW tilt your head forward and backward. Doesn't move nearly as far.

Just this squires opinion.

Hey Morgan,

I do not believe this is merely a Gulf Wars thing. Excessive thrusts happen all over. GW's, Pennsic for sure, the last Sea Raids, Border Raids, Panhandle Skirmishes, even within my kingdom, there are excessive thrusts.

I agree with Vitus that an apology should come automatically when you hit someone too hard. I know I offer one when I hit someone too hard unintentionally. The attitude part is very important.

Helmets need to be better fit to the fighters pumpkin. True. I know people who do not fight with chinstraps at all. I sometimes use mine, sometimes I don't. Just depends on whether I an fighting in singles or melees.

Bottom line. Directed touch is good enough. Excessive is totally bad.

Odo

BdeB wrote:Was that with a polearm when you fought Anton, Sir Malcolm? In the many years that i've known him, I never saw him fight with a spear, ever. His swords and greatswords did not have thrusting tips, so I can only assume you are talking about Polearm...

(off-topic-sorry) Umm..I know you were his Squire and all but I have seen that, so how come you haven't?

The SEM pulled me off to the side last Gulf Wars last year.

SEM "Did that spear blade touch your face"?

Oengus; "Well, yes Sir, but it kinda raked off the side of my Ocular, and there waddunt nuttin behind it".

SEM. "I said, MeLord. DID IT TOUCH YOUR FACE"?

Oengus; "Yes Sir"..

SEM "Then are you dead"?

Oengus. "Yes Sir, if you say so".

SEM "No. Not if I say so. If it touched your face, you need to say so. Better hurry and hit res point, if you want to be in the final fray".

Oengus. "Yes Sir".

Oengus goes directly to res point and back into the Melee.

It's as simple as that, according to the highest Authority in the Society. Why is this shit so hard to grasp? You get it in the face, your' dead, dead, graveyard DEAD. No forse is necessary. No injuries are necessary. Yet they happen everywhere, every weekend.

Oengus Lok Cruithni wrote:It's as simple as that, according to the highest Authority in the Society. Why is this shit so hard to grasp? You get it in the face, your' dead, dead, graveyard DEAD. No forse is necessary. No injuries are necessary. Yet they happen everywhere, every weekend.

In some kingdoms, marshals don't call people dead. We can only tell them where they've been hit.