Gladiatoria translation

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 6:08 am

Does anyone know where I can view the translated text of Gladiatoria ?

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:26 pm

Theres gotta be someone out there that knows of a Gladiatoria translation. I am downloading the images from the AEMMA site, one by one, and where there is text (of some description - could be Klingon for all I know..) theres gotto be an english translation to it...

C'mon people stop making me reply to my own messages!

Wyrm.

Tom Knighton · Post by **Tom Knighton** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:36 pm

Personally, I've never heard of a translation of the Gladiatora, but that doesn't mean anything. Many people may be looking and haven't come accross anything yet. Patience is a virtue after all (although admittedly one that I don't possess).

Have you done a search in google? If not, it's worth a shot. No promises, but Gladiatoria can't be THAT common for a search so you shouldn't have to much BS to wade through.

Sorry I'm not of more help though.

Bran

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:26 am

Bran Mac Scandlan wrote: Sorry I'm not of more help though.

Bran

Hi Bran, I dont get much luck in a google search. I did find this which might explain why I havent found a translation yet, but I find it hard to beleive that people didnt make a translation before Gladiatoria was released. ARMA is asking help in translating it themselves.

From ARMA

"The "Gladiatoria" is a rare manuscript from the mid-1400's. It is one of the more obscure Fechtbucher and one which has not been examined at length before by pracitioners. ARMA is excited to present online recently obtained portions from the more than 200 pages of this unique work. ARMA has just begun a concerted translation effort of the Gladiatoria text. If you can assist in translating Medieval or Old German and would like to be a part, please email the webmaster. We also welcome observations and comments about the content. Gladiatoria is interesting in that it begins with armored combat, yet surprisingly the combatants do not wear guantlets. It also depicts several plates of sword vs. spear and even a thrown rock. There are once again clear examples of deflecting and displacing actions rather than direct edge on edge blocks or parries. It then moves on to unarmored combat. More sections will be added here in time."

orderic · Post by **orderic** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:37 pm

are you referring to the Ars Gladitoria? If so, here it is:
http://www.chronique.com/Library/Fighti ... ation.html

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:25 pm

orderic wrote:are you referring to the Ars Gladitoria? If so, here it is:
http://www.chronique.com/Library/Fighti ... ation.html

no, different treatise, but thanks for that link, I havent got that one yet.

cheers

AllenJ · Post by **AllenJ** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:23 am

I know the one you are talking about...As far as I know there isnt a formal english translation. I know of a few people doing it on their own but nothing in printed form as far as I know. The AEMMA site has a copy up too.

Gaston de Vieuxchamps · Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:22 am

That's the really interesting thing about all these books, no one seems to have bothered translating them to English, or even scanning or photographing them until fairly recently.

Most historians don't find the study of actual hand to hand techniques to be important--they are more concerned with social, economic, political, health, and lifestyle issues. When the SCA began over 35 years ago, we thought that this kind of information didn't even exist. It just took enough people showing interest for the dusty old texts hiding in the back rows of various collections to begin to surface.

James the Baker · Post by **James the Baker** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:30 am

Sorry,I'm pulling a stupid and cannot find it.Would one of you fine folks throw a link up for me?
Thank You,
James

AllenJ · Post by **AllenJ** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:13 am

Heres the two aforementioned places you can find bits of this manual:
http://www.aemma.org/library_top.htm
you'll have to click on the 15c button and then go down to the 3rd manual in the list: Anonymous, 1425-1475, "Gladiatoria" - Biblioteka Jagiellonski

and heres the ARMA link:
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Gladiato ... atoria.htm

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:14 am

James the Lion wrote:Sorry,I'm pulling a stupid and cannot find it.Would one of you fine folks throw a link up for me?
Thank You,
James

http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/on ... rces_H.htm

AllenJ · Post by **AllenJ** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:15 am

Gaston de Vieuxchamps wrote: When the SCA began over 35 years ago, we thought that this kind of information didn't even exist. It just took enough people showing interest for the dusty old texts hiding in the back rows of various collections to begin to surface.

Whoda thought a bunch of hippies in a backyard could foster learning?!

James the Baker · Post by **James the Baker** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:20 pm

Thanks.Wyrmspleen,I saw your other thread about original texts and agree.I would like to look at them in their original german and that is proving difficult online at least.
Thanks again folks.
James

jester · Post by **jester** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:55 pm

Gaston de Vieuxchamps wrote:That's the really interesting thing about all these books, no one seems to have bothered translating them to English, or even scanning or photographing them until fairly recently.

Most historians don't find the study of actual hand to hand techniques to be important--they are more concerned with social, economic, political, health, and lifestyle issues. When the SCA began over 35 years ago, we thought that this kind of information didn't even exist. It just took enough people showing interest for the dusty old texts hiding in the back rows of various collections to begin to surface.

Actually, according to Mistress Signy Dimmridaela photostat copies of Talhoffer were being studied by members of the SCA back in the early 70's. Master Galleron de Cressy has also stated that he worked with Talhoffer back in the late 70's.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:29 pm

Gladiatoria not been translated? Urk?

I could have sworn that Grzegorz Zabinski translated that sucker as part of his dissertation... I'll have to ask him...

AllenJ · Post by **AllenJ** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:42 am

If he did tell him to share the love!!!

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 2:12 am

Russ Mitchell wrote:Gladiatoria not been translated? Urk?

I could have sworn that Grzegorz Zabinski translated that sucker as part of his dissertation... I'll have to ask him...

yes, tell him we'll all send him a chocolate fish for the translation... or money, jewellery, body organs whatever, not that we will actually do any of this but thats not the point, the point is you must get the translation at all costs. this is your mission.

this message will self distruct in t-minus 5 seconds..

Bob Charron · Post by **Bob Charron** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:54 am

Russ,

From the memory of my last conversation with Bart Walzcak, Grzegorz is working on this, and the plan is to publish it.

It's a marvelous manuscript, thought to be non-Liechtenauer in tradition, and shows beautifully armoured opponents in Judicial Duel. One of the most interesting aspects of this manuscript is the lack of hand protection (despite full armour) in most of the plates.

It will be a very important translation, and Grzegorz is just the guy to be working on it.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:58 pm

He's got to get a publisher, though... I hear very unhappy noises about his current setup. I'll ask after how far along he is, since I'm shortly going to owe him some stuff on Leckuchner...

Magmaforge · Post by **Magmaforge** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:03 pm

another interesting thing about this manuscript is that it depicts the use of a curved "pringle" shield, which is seen most commonly used in jousting, and in some artwork of battles (notably Froissart's illustrations). Many have dismissed it's use as artistic license, but I believe this establishes quite otherwise.

Mag =)

M S Anderson · Post by **M S Anderson** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:17 pm

Magmaforge wrote:another interesting thing about this manuscript is that it depicts the use of a curved "pringle" shield, which is seen most commonly used in jousting, and in some artwork of battles (notably Froissart's illustrations). Many have dismissed it's use as artistic license, but I believe this establishes quite otherwise.

Mag =)

I find the overwhelming volume of techniques in this manual fascinating. There are fifty sword techniques (or "tricks" as they are called in the text) plus lots of dagger and spear as well. Also interesting are the "holdings" which show techniques to control your opponent after you have thrown him to the ground, very important if you are going to finish off an armoured man. It's a real goldmine for anyone interested in recreating armoured fighting techniques of the period. At the end there is also some duelling shield, sword and buckler and even staff thrown in. They are interesting as well although they seem out of place with the preponderance of armoured techniques that precede them. Truly a fascinating book.

Matt Anderson
ARMA VAB