Why the SCA can't change.

[Captain Jamie]

James the Lion and Bran- It looks like the SEM put a hold on some techniques being used in the lists but within months put forward rules to allow half swording techniques to be used.

So add grappling to the list of things that can't be done for now as I suspect that the half sword techniques will pass review and be allowed at Society level. Of course your kingdom may vary. Oh and the way I read the SEMs injunction is that you cannot actually grapple in a class. You could still discuss the material at hand and it's import on medieval fighting technique. For instance you could compare fechtbuch illustrations to illuminations that show those techniques being used. I am particularly interested in what combat is like before the fechtbuchs as I don't see contemporary illustrations of mail clad warriors doing the same things.

Anything else any one can think of?

Captain Jamie

[James B.]

Captain Jamie

I would just add that they have allowed halfswording with a short sword but not yet with a longsword where it is shown far more in the manuals.

[Russ Mitchell]

Really. Outside of participants tweaking things here and there, which is their own business, why on earth would the SCA need to change?

Umm, yeah. That's pretty much us in a nutshell. [/quote]

Sorry, didn't mean to offend you, sir. My post was NOT meant pejoratively. As an outsider, when it comes to how I view your organization, my impression is very, very positive.

[InsaneIrish]

The Society Earl Marshal has banned the teaching of Historical Swordsmanship techniques. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. It has something to do with the fact that grappling is allowed in works like Fiore and he doesn't think people will NOT grapple if they learn that.

God only knows WHY though. I know we have a serious problem with folk who train in eastern martial arts kicking people in the face

Bran

I have never heard this. When was this done? Who did it? Which Society Marshal? Can you produce documentation?

Its not that I don't believe you, its just that I want to read it.

I can see the SEM saying no grappling, but I can't see how he/she can stop people from learning period techniques. And as far as employing them on the feild? Well, as long as they don't grapple how can he stop them?

[jester]

The Society Earl Marshal has banned the teaching of Historical Swordsmanship techniques. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. It has something to do with the fact that grappling is allowed in works like Fiore and he doesn't think people will NOT grapple if they learn that.

God only knows WHY though. I know we have a serious problem with folk who train in eastern martial arts kicking people in the face

Bran

This is news to me. The last I heard (November of 2003) from Conde Fernando (the Board Ombudsman for martial activities) and from Sir Robert (the Marshal of the Society), there was only a partial prohibition on Historical Swordmanship techniques. There are two areas to be considered: competitive combat and A&S-type classes.

In competitive combat (rapier, sidesword, rattan) you cannot perform activities that are prohibited by the rules of the list. This includes any deliberate body to body contact (such as grappling and tripping). The example used in this case was the Historic Combat Series in which tripping and pushing played a significant part in at least one tournament. I will note that pushing and tripping were not, at the time the HCS was running forbidden by the rules of the Society. The SEM issued an interpretation of the grappling rule that later made such activity forbidden.

In A&S-type classes you can teach activities that are not permitted under the rules of the list. As I recall the conditions that must be met:
-You must inform people that they are studying techniques that are forbidden in competitive combat (the lists).
-You may not engage in freeplay (un-choreographed activity).
-You may not carry wrestling moves through to completion (it's okay to set up to execute a figure 4 armlock and trip, but you cannot actually throw anybody to the floor).
-You may not strike forcefully (i.e. your weapon simulators or punches can contact your opponent, but they cannot make contact with any force behind them).

Finally, it is important to note that while the Society has given an okay on this type of activity, your individual kingdom is still free to enact regulations that are more restrictive (or to outright forbid such activity). My kingdom, the Outlands, has apparently done so. I say apparently because yesterday a friend showed me the schedule for an event this weekend that includes instruction in Capo Ferro and Agrippa.

If I am wrong, if the SEM has made an outright ban, can some please enlighten me, off thread? Thank you.

[Odo]

There are many many things that you could say about Gaston, and most of it would be true , but a rhino is not one of them.

ironmongermisc's claim of a settlement with the SCA is a bunch of BS as well. He cannot comment on it because he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

My suggestion for this particular scab is to quite picking at it and let it go away for good.

Odo

My earliest memory of you,Gaston, was at a fighter practice when I first moved to Tallahasse and you were fighting a gentleman who became so furious at your lack of calling leg blows he stormed off the field, and later you had the audacity to complain about him creasing your thigh armor...

snip

There's plenty you could say about me and I'm sure a certain percent of people would rally to it. But you aren't going to get very far with calling me a rhino. Even my worst detractors won't buy that line of crap.

snip

Only a complete lack of shame would allow you to do what you have done and that same character flaw allows you to continue to write about the SCA as if you cared and then hide behind some supposed legal BS.

[St. George]

Ironmonger,

If you pretended to be a Laurel, dude you are a jerk. There is no call for lying like that. If you wanted to get something done, you should have come up with a decent course of action, and made it work. Instead you chose to go against the entire grain of the culture of the SCA- fantasy or not.

Go ahead and call me a stick jock if you want to, but I am a grad student at the number one art school in the country.

Alaric

[Odo]

Hey Abaddon,

I think you give the SCA as a whole a short shrift. Alot of what you say is very true, but slightly off kilter.

A couple of things to point out.
1. You do not have to do anything remotely accurate historically to put on armor and fight.
2. Heavy fighters are power brokers (especially the good ones, they become kings).

But that is not the whole story.

Kings have Queens. Usually this person is NOT a heavy fighter. They do have power as well. I know that for the reigns that I have seen, most of the attention of the reign in its entirety is off the field. Most Crowns take special interest and also are very proud of the service that is done, and the art that is created.

I also disagree that you have to change the entire structure of the SCA to see effective change within the organization. The system is not entirely broken but there could be improvements. And change can come from anyone (and I would bet that the individual for bringing positive change would get recognized positively as well).

One thing I will mention. You say the people who are in charge now have no interest to change the way that the SCA is running now. I disagree. I believe that they will change it how they see fit. If you are advocating change, you need to step up to the plate and make it happen, and allow those who do not desire change to sit back and watch (or openly disagree with your position).

Take care,
Odo

[Odo]

I can see the SEM saying no grappling, but I can't see how he/she can stop people from learning period techniques. And as far as employing them on the feild? Well, as long as they don't grapple how can he stop them?

I believe that this is the true jist of the ruling by the SEM. That the entirety of Fiore or any of the other period fighting works could not be taught because of the illegal aspects. But that anything that does fall within the context of our system would be fine.

Example:grappling, attacks to the knees(illegal target) etc.

Take my comments for what they are worth.

Odo

[cblackthorne]

[ As it stands right now the SCA is pretty self-serving and self-involved for a non-profit organization. I know a few baronies that routinely make appearances at charity events and help out local schools and such....but on the whole most demos are basically recruiting drives for the SCA itself and do not teach much that is worthwhile academically.
This in itself is not a criticism, but the fact is that many members of the

Im sorry, but this statement I have an EXTREME issue with.

Our local group holds an entire SCA event every November for the sole purpose of collecting toys for the Toys for Tots drive. Last year we collected over 1000 toys (in one day) which were donated to the Marine Corps League. In fact, we collected more toys than any other business or charitable entity that donated to the Marines in this area.

These toys were distributed over central Missouri and put alot of smiles on some kids faces.

Our goal this year is to break the 2000 mark and dammit I intend to do it.

Our group performs several demos each year at schools for educating students about the middle ages, not recruiting members.

I take offense at the statement that the SCA is exceedingly self-serving. Our shire is not the only one that gives back to the community it resides in. Our shire is not the only one that strives to educate people about the middle ages. Its Society wide.

Regards,
Lord Christopher
Offical Toy Wrangler for the Calontir TFT Tourney

[dukelogan]

mine has been a similar expirence as lord christopher. in the past 12 years i have co-ordinated over 100 demos locally. fully 95% or more where to children. atlantia also has a tft event that collects a ton of toys each year. not on the level of calontir but it does pull in several hundred. i also know of many sca groups here that have gone and done land improvements to different sites (probably to gain a discount on renting them, but it is work nonetheless).

regards
logan

[InsaneIrish]

To build on what Lord Christopher said. Not only does Calontir hold a toy drive for Toys for Tots, but the WHOLE of the SCA holds it. Every kingdom participates in the TFT drive. Last year I believe the SCA raised something like 30,000 toys USA wide. That is a crap load of toys.

[Gaston de Vieuxchamps]

Really. Outside of participants tweaking things here and there, which is their own business, why on earth would the SCA need to change?

Umm, yeah. That's pretty much us in a nutshell.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend you, sir. My post was NOT meant pejoratively. As an outsider, when it comes to how I view your organization, my impression is very, very positive.[/quote]


Heh. Sorry if it sounded like I was offended. I was not. I wasn't being sarcastic when I said that was us in a nutshell. The face: indicates my shock at your uncomfortable insight. Not a: or which might indicate sarcasm. Chalk it up to the weaknesses of internet communication.

I think you have a pretty solid grasp on what the SCA is and isn't and it would be nice if every SCA member had that same grasp. Most do, but enough don't that they like to make a fuss.

[Tom Knighton]

I don't recall where I read that information, so it could be in error. It was my understanding that Sir Robert had also banned teaching of period techniques in even class setting, such as A&S. However, I will concede that my information could be wrong on it.


Still, I haven't heard anything out of that comittee since a couple weeks after it was formed. Anyone here on it? Anything come of it? Somehow I figured it would die out anyways.

Bran

[Odo]

This is the only "ruling" that I have seen from the SEM. I have heard rumors and such, but this is the only official thing I have seen or read.

Basically it states that grappling is illegal. They are looking into the fechtbuchs to what else should or should not be addressed. My interpretation is that if it falls within th rules as we know them, then period techniques can be used. Outside of our rules, do not use them.

Odo

************************************
August 4th, 2003:

I just got done telling the Rapier community about this, so I guess this is timely.
I believe that a common misconception persists about grappling; to wit, it only consists of "grabbing". Now, I know that the Society level rules are not very explicit but I'm about to fix that.

Grappling is any intentional or overt contact of hands/feet/appendages to the other fighter’s person. Pushing, slapping, tripping, knee leverages and falling on, head butting, etc., all apply. Incidental contact, during a charge for example, is not the same thing and is going to happen. Allowances have to be made during Melee/close combat. I am not saying incidental contact will not be made during tourney fighting but the occurrence is low and the differences clearer.

I do not know why, but the Pas Dispensation and the current study of later period fighting techniques have bred a host of confusions. Let me state for the record that no one in the SCA, in any combat form or class, is allowed to grapple.

Having said that, it may interest some to know that I have appointed a committee to study such things as Fechtbuch and other period disciplines. No promises are made but this office is trying to figure out how/if these things can be done or should be done.

Until you hear from your friendly Society Marshal though, ya'll keep your hands to yourself.

Robert Glendon of Auk
Society Earl Marshal

[jester]

Once again the SCA inadvertently recreates an aspect of the Middle Ages (communication through rumor). The Marshallate in general needs to do a better job of publishing these clarifications (though I note that some kingdoms are doing a pretty fair job, Atlantia springs to mind).

The last official word I heard on this subject was a letter from Conde Fernando (the outgoing BoD ombudsman for Martial activities). This was in response to the flap over KWAR. The full text of Conde Fernando's letter was published on this forum at:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... 7&start=35

Further down the list you can find confirmation from Sir Rey riBeaumont, one of the SEM's deputies. So, so far as I know, the Society does not frown on the study or teaching of Fechbuch material so long as you keep the illegal stuff in the classroom and off the field. Your kingdom may, of course, take a more restrictive view on these matters.

[Russ Mitchell]

Heh. Sorry if it sounded like I was offended. I was not. I wasn't being sarcastic when I said that was us in a nutshell. The face: indicates my shock at your uncomfortable insight. Not a: or which might indicate sarcasm. Chalk it up to the weaknesses of internet communication.

I don't understand why that's uncomfortable... I mean, it is called "creative anachronism..." right? Truth in advertising?

Anyway, I find that most of the folks stateside who I really want to talk to regarding my research are either in, or have been in, or else are somehow tied to folks who are in, the SCA. And the folks I know in Europe wouldn't shell out the money to play it (because they're POOR), but they would bring their kits and yurt in order to play or at least enjoy a good encampment.

[Cap'n Atli]

...and this started out as a reltively thoughtful and interesting thread.

Pity.

[sarnac]

"Can you name, historically, one culture or race of people who were led exclusively by warriors, that was a model of enlightened rule? "


Yes...the Mongols.... Ghengis Khan ruled the largest Empire ever and brought "modern" ideals like unified writing, medicine, freedom of religion, and many advancements to tribes and lands across Asia and the Middle East.

[Tom Knighton]

I stand corrected on the issue of the SEMs ruling about HWMA. I still think that grappling could be a viable part of our combat, in limited use such as special tournaments, but I don't get a say on that matter.

Bran

[St. George]

I stand corrected on the issue of the SEMs ruling about HWMA. I still think that grappling could be a viable part of our combat, in limited use such as special tournaments, but I don't get a say on that matter.

Bran

Not without weight classes.

Alaric

[dukelogan]

damn alaric you gotta cowboy up there nancy. weight classes! who needs em.

i aint scared to wrestle you alaric!

regards
logan

I stand corrected on the issue of the SEMs ruling about HWMA. I still think that grappling could be a viable part of our combat, in limited use such as special tournaments, but I don't get a say on that matter.

Bran

Not without weight classes.

Alaric

[Odo]

I would fight in Alaric's weight class. You are getting up there aren't you?

In reality, I think that grappling would add a whole new avenue of pain to be hurled upon people. It is so much more personal when someone taps out.

Odo

edited to add> I am NOT advocating for the addition of grappling to SCA sport fighting. Only recognizing the possibilities.

damn alaric you gotta cowboy up there nancy. weight classes! who needs em.

i aint scared to wrestle you alaric!

regards
logan

I stand corrected on the issue of the SEMs ruling about HWMA. I still think that grappling could be a viable part of our combat, in limited use such as special tournaments, but I don't get a say on that matter.

Bran

Not without weight classes.

Alaric

[brewer]

[ As it stands right now the SCA is pretty self-serving and self-involved for a non-profit organization. I know a few baronies that routinely make appearances at charity events and help out local schools and such....but on the whole most demos are basically recruiting drives for the SCA itself and do not teach much that is worthwhile academically.
This in itself is not a criticism, but the fact is that many members of the

Im sorry, but this statement I have an EXTREME issue with.

I think, if you carefully read Wulfe's post, that you'll find he mentioned "...a few baronies that [...] help." So you're both right.

I know for a stone-cold fact that my local group doesn't demo history. They demo the SCA. Whether it's a group of kiddies or a massive setup at a local festival, it's "Here's the SCA!" not "Here's history!" (Unless something has drastically changed in the recent past.) According to my unscientifically gathered anecdotal information, the vast majority of local groups demo in this fashion, as a recruiting tool for the SCA, not as an educative effort (well, unless you count educating people in what the SCA's all about as education). You know what? That's perfectly acceptable. Recruiting is necessary. I merely take issue with calling it "education" when it's not.

Kudos for those who do so much to help Toys for Tots! That's a real achievement, and one you should be proud of.

[JPT]

Big demos where you have several fighters and lots of stuff going on is really not a good place to "educate" people. It's great spectacle, and it draws crowds and people stop to watch and occasionally ask questions. That's when you have a chance to educate.

Something that I did for a couple of years was to go to my kids school and spend half a day or so talking about the middle ages. I brought in bits and bobs of this and that, armour pieces, examples of weapons, clothing, jewelry and such. I put on a tape of medieval music and just talked. Didn't delve into deep detail, I wanted to keep it on a level that 6th graders would follow and find interesting. Did they learn in depth the intricacies of hand stitching wool hosen from the 13th century? No, they wouldn't (most likely) have been interested. What I did do though was spark an interest, and maybe just maybe bring them a little closer than they had been.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when it comes to educating people, sometimes you have to take the small victories where you can get them.

[brewer]

I'm hearing you, Cailean, but that's not what I was referring to. It's my experience that, in many cases, that any education takes place at all is entirely incidental.

At that point, one starts to wonder just what one is "demo"ing. If it is intended to be educative, then SCA recruiting pitches are out of place, as is demonstrating purely SCA-oriented activities, like rattan sport combat.

ATTENTION. I did not say there's anything wrong with SCA sport combat. I merely pointed out the ahistorical nature of the beast, as has been admitted on the BB.

For that matter, there are a lot of activities which I presumed to be medieval but which I now realise are SCA-oriented, with only arguable roots in the Middle Ages, like most of the scribal arts as commonly practised.

[Abaddon]

Hey Abaddon,
I think you give the SCA as a whole a short shrift. Alot of what you say is very true, but slightly off kilter.

Perhaps, but you have to exaggerate sometimes to make a point.
Obviously the SCA is still the place where I play...so I must at least like parts of it. I'd like to see it more fair. And I'd like to see the people I respect get more recognition for their contribution rather than getting sneered at for being "elitist" because they were outshining someone in power.
I like honesty and fairness.
But that's just me.

[mattmaus]

It's my experience that, in many cases, that any education takes place at all is entirely incidental.

I uh.... I'm not trying to flame you. Really I'm not.

But you're wrong.

Because of the SCA and my participation in it I have learned:

1> How to mig weld. (and stick weld for that matter)
2> How to sew.
3> How to start a camp fire. (missed boyscouts)
4> several knots (used to tie up plastic armor with paracord)
5> How to pack efficiently
6> How to plan meals and cook them (lived at 'home' a long time)
7> Caligraphy (ahistorical as it may be)
8> How to address a crowd (voice projection and so on)
9> A little about preparing formal business presentations/reports
10> basic navigation
11> A few german phrases

Those are just a few things off the top of my head. I will absolutely concede that most of them have just shy of diddly through nothing at all to do with any period of history other than Matt's life, 1992-2004. But, they are all things that I have been TAUGHT through the SCA.

The primary focus of the SCA's educational intent is no doubt pre17th century european history (or it's supposed to be). But just because I don't know everything there is to know about the dukes of Burgundy does not at all mean that I have not been educated, or educated only incedentaly through the SCA.

[Abaddon]

Im sorry, but this statement I have an EXTREME issue with.

Our local group holds an entire SCA event every November for the sole purpose of collecting toys for the Toys for Tots drive. Last year we collected over 1000 toys (in one day) which were donated to the Marine Corps League. In fact, we collected more toys than any other business or charitable entity that donated to the Marines in this area.

These toys were distributed over central Missouri and put alot of smiles on some kids faces.

Our goal this year is to break the 2000 mark and dammit I intend to do it.

Our group performs several demos each year at schools for educating students about the middle ages, not recruiting members.

I take offense at the statement that the SCA is exceedingly self-serving. Our shire is not the only one that gives back to the community it resides in. Our shire is not the only one that strives to educate people about the middle ages. Its Society wide.

Regards,
Lord Christopher
Offical Toy Wrangler for the Calontir TFT Tourney

Ok. So your group does this kind of thing. Great. More power to ya. I know of other SCA groups who also make a difference in their communities. And I know many that do not.
I never said that no one in the SCA did, so why you would take offense at this is beyond me. But yes, I think we are mostly self-centered.
Public service in the SCA is not as universal as you would like to believe. Sorry if that bursts your bubble, but some groups can't even get together on a regular basis for dance practice! So Adopt-a-Highway might be a bit of a stretch for them. It really comes down to personal choice, and how one was introduced to the SCA. Public service is not always a part of the SCA indoctrinization literature. "Come and fight!" That is the first thing that is pushed on any newcomer. Not "Come and serve." If you think differently, then you are fooling yourself.
But so what? Maybe that's your thing.
And as far as me making you mad? That wasn't my intent, but I won't take responsibility for your emotional state, since I can't make you do anything. You made yourself mad. You do understand that not everything is a direct criticism of you personally? If it was I would have titled this thread, "Why Lord Christopher makes the SCA a stinkhole."
But I did not title it that way because I do not even know you.
This thread was completely impersonal.
I was speaking in generalizations that I find to be true in the SCA and you are getting angry at specifics that are misapplied.
Well, I avoided specifics for just this reason, so any that you see are not misapplied by me, but by you.
If something I say just doesn't apply to you or your group, then how can you take it as a criticism? That is not a logical response, it is an emotional one, and one which ignores the basic reality; i.e., that your group is not necessarily representative of the SCA as a whole. I could wish it were, since your group sounds more like the SCA as I would like to see it.
This, too, may be a part of the SCA's greater problems....well-meaning individuals who think that everyone around them is equally as well-meaning. There are two great dangers that any human society or group must guard against or ultamately perish....the first is refusing to see any nobility or greatness in the human spirit...and the second is to see nobility and greatness where none exists.

[Dave Womble]

After my 1st post to this thread, I knew precisely what kind of responses I'd get...and I was right. A couple of you flew off the handle...why? Because you percieve me as an outsider dogging on your beloved group. Fine..I can understand why you'd act like that...its a conditioned response...human nature...we get defensive when someone picks on us or what we hold dear. Now, all that aside, Abaddon has already written everything I had to say. I too was generalizing...is that bad? It can be. In my experience with the SCA in central NH, I am not impressed. I have been to a few events trying to hook up with like-minded people, and all i saw were cliques and elitist groups unwilling to learn about the realities of medieval combat, culture, and what have you. Perhaps my geographical area is not a good example of the best the SCA has to offer. I dont know, because I dont get out of New England (rarely out of NH and MA).

I'm sure the various chapters of the SCA do great and wonderful things...Toys for Tots is a great cause, but theres more to it all than doing something like that once a year to feel like heroes....the SCA should be promoting the ideals of honor and chivalry it claims to be ALL THE TIME within the organization, and without. I would personally like to see less focus on who's who within the organization, and the personal achievements of various fighters, and more focus on educationg people properly about the cultures and places the SCA strives to mimic. My sole issue with the SCA is that for the most part, they do nothing to stem the tide of myth and misconception surrounding the middle ages...and in most cases, feed it. The SCA is like one giant "Conquest" episode on History Channel. The standards of combat are quite lame in my opinion..I understand they are the way they are for safety reasons..is that correct? I fail to see an issue with grapples, shield bashing, and many of the other tactics that are frowned upon or outright illegal. Kicking a guy in the groin should be illegal, yes, its a low blow, not very chivalric or honorable, but it is effective. Hopping around on 1 foot when you get hit in the leg is foolish. I say both fighters keep going until one is obviously bested (knocked down with his adversaries "blade" at his throat or other vital for example) or yields due to exhaustion, or realization he *will* be bested by a superior fighter. Thats just my personal opinion. I fully expect many of you to feel different.

It was pointed out that all i do is point fingers and rail about how much the SCA sucks and I wont give any ideas on how to change it....aside from re-inventing the wheel, I dont know what you expect me to say. Hold real demos where you illustrate combat techniques of various groups in history. Hold demos where the proper names and usage of various equipment (military and otherwise) are explained. Many SCAdians know as much about weapons and armour as their D&D Players Handbooks could tell them. Is that so of all members? No. Of course not. Again we generalize. Hold craft demos of historic woodworking, leatherworking, armouring, weaving, etc etc. You claim you're such a huge organization, so I dont see a problem logistically or a lack of talent.

Restructure the combat to more closely resemble authentic combat. Safety issues? Those participating can be divvied up into classes. Not weight classes...skill classes if you will. The newbies obviously dont fight as well or the same way as a 15-20 year veteran of the various fechtbuchs (Christian Tobler, one of our moderators on Arador comes to mind). The combat the SCA promotes is little more than glorified boffers. Is it fun? Of course it is. Is it dangerous? Of course it is. At least its labled "sport" combat...but there should be a stronger emphasis on accurate and historical combat techniques...especially in an organization that is made up of fighters. You have people being exposed to as much safety risk in medieval combat as you do in the various other sporting events...hocky, football, etc and many of you participate in those activities...so I dont see why rougher more realistic combat cannot be realized in the SCA.

What else.....theres entirely too much political nonsense going on...its taken too seriously. The leaders of the SCA are there based on what? Their ability to fight..thats whats been stated and not really refuted so far in this thread. What do they actually *do*? I'm asking seriously. I have no idea. Are they responsible for organizing events and demos? Charity events? Or are they merely figureheads serving in a capacity of showy flair? I'm curious. I dont argue the fact my vision of the SCA is skewed and biased. But then again so is your support of it.

Living History groups may not be as large as the SCA, but as has been stated, quantity is not as good as or better than quality. The SCA has a huge advantage over LH groups to educate the masses, yet it chooses for the most part to NOT do so..or at least to do so accurately and effectivly.

What percentage of fighters actually know a lot about the armour theyre wearing? I dont mean how to make it either....do they know why its used? Do they know who started using it? How and why it developed? I dont imagine many do. The personas SCA members adopt...how many actually know a great deal about the place and culture their persona is derived from? How many really care? Again, I have no idea and am asking seriously. AM I letting a few bad personal instances and experiences with the SCA dictate my overall feeling? Yes, I am guilty of that. Persuade me otherwise. I know one of you said fine, dont play, the SCA will go on without you. Thats a very ignorant and self centered view..precisely the view I've been exposed to all along. Prove me wrong, and in so doing, you'll prove a lot of us other outsiders you feel are a threat or at the very least an inconvenience to your hobby and/or way of life.

All i ask for is more thought and feeling in the organization, more desire to educate people on the truths of the middle ages, not the Hollywoodesque fabric of chivalry and romance that I have observed.

[dukelogan]

honestly i think a few people need to learn how to use english to effectively get a point across in a clear manner. for example, stating opinions in a definitive way like "the sca sucks" then backpedaling to say "i was generalizing because my very limited experience in my very limited area with very limited people was crappy" does little good. it shows bias without research or any practical experience. as such it exposes itself as nothing more than an ignorant attack with some unknown agenda. typically on these boards that agenda is to be outrageous or to start a flame war.

my suggestion to those that think the sca is silly or dumb or not as cool as their group or whatever is for them to either go play in the sca for a while or dont. but you just look silly bitching about an organization as layered as the sca and then saying "your leaders are chosen by how good they play boffer but what else do they do". its ignorant and serves no purpose.

sure, there are people that will get a bit bent when someone, that proves that they know little, dogs their game. hell look at 90% of animals posts. he is constantly feeling the need to defend the tuchux. but i dont blame him. there are many people that dog the tuchux and usually its based on pure hearsay. for an example to the contrary, everything i have said about the tuchux is fact as i have been there to experience it myself. but i think that i am in the minority in that respect. my point being that you might notice that animal doesnt lose his shit with me when we disagree or discuss sca / tuchux issues. so i dont think griping about people getting a little testy when their game is attacked in a nonsensical manner is the way to go. they feel the need to di it and i think t is justified in most cases. if the attacks are factual and researched then it becomes a discussion and loses the air i reflected on in my first paragraph.



that said i think there is a lot that the sca needs to do to improve itself. but i will remind those uninformed opinion expressing people that the sca is not a living history group, it is not a medieval re-enactment group, it is not a historical authority, and it is not a fantasy based organization. once you actually understand what it is not i think you will see that most of your opinions are not really relevant to the sca or its problems. the sca has a clear and easy to understand charter that dictates what it is and what its purpose is. most of what i have read is akin to complaining that our pitcher doesnt kick field goals well.




i hope that makes sense. if not, read it again and then ask for clarification if needed.

regards
logan

[Lothar the Wanderer]

Durin Bloodaxe,
You wrote:

It can be. In my experience with the SCA in central NH, I am not impressed. I have been to a few events trying to hook up with like-minded people, and all i saw were cliques and elitist groups unwilling to learn about the realities of medieval combat, culture, and what have you. Perhaps my geographical area is not a good example of the best the SCA has to offer. I dont know, because I dont get out of New England (rarely out of NH and MA).

(endquote)

It might be an indictment of the SCA to say this, but the Stonemarche group has a very good inclusive atmosphere from what I have seen. The Baron Xavier and Baroness Maria go out of their way to welcome people from other groups as well as those new to the SCA. I have been impressed at their welcoming nature. Combined with the congeniality of most Stonemarchers (Stonemartians?) you have Adam from White Mountain Armory leading the cause for period armor, Matt (D'Sebastian) promoting appropriate kit on both the field of honor and off, Lord Thaddeus and Sir Angus O'Neill studying Fechbuchs and learning period techniques as a side study from the SCA, and I have house members in the area too persuing improving the authenticity of their presentation. There are artisans exploring music, clothing, armor, and many other aspects of the medievalism that many of us seek.

Stonemarche does a good job of both inspiring me to improve my medieval mindset and appearance as well as humble me by making me aware of my shortcomings. It is sad that you had a taste of the negativity of politics that is the bane of the SCA, but it is not nearly as universal as it first appears. I know of a lot of the misunderstandings amoungst members of the New Hampshire group, but I have also seen them put those differences aside and really do wonderful things.

If you want more input and more focused information, I would be happy to help you gather it, privately. I am really sad that your impression of my friends in New Hampshire is so jaded. Like any other social network, it takes time to understand its quirks.

Events are not usually the best place to see people being 'themselves.' I would suggest Kythe's craft night or a practice in North Weare as a better place to actually get to know people. Events are very focused on doing certain things and getting certain things right for the overall enjoyment of the membership. Practices and workshops are far more laid back and open...

I hope my input serves you well, I do feel sorry you were left with the impression you were.

Matt Beaudoin, in the SCA known as Sir Lothar von Halstern.

[Thorstenn]

Ironmongermisc, or yonakar or mr.Schultz.
A friend of mine told me today you still have some armor of his you took it with out his permision. He would like to have it back.
Mild steel helm with some painted on notwork. U.S. post office ground shipping works just fine. if you need more info ask.


thank you.

[Dave Womble]

Lothar,

I would be more than happy to look back into the SCA....I *want* to be proven wrong about all the things I said and perceived. Many of the repliers in this thread still failed to see my point....I never said the SCA sucks...thats just what some repliers assumed or inferred.I just want to see a few improvements. I was turned off initially because it appeared to be a very cliquey group...and the market day event I went to at Rockingham Park in Salem NH a few years ago was nothing more than a host of merchants hawking junk at exhorbitant prices, with a small fighting area thrown in as a side thought.

I was also turned off somewhat by a few individuals at Ren Faires actually charging people to fight them. I dont know their names, (SCA or otherwise) I didnt ask...I just thought it sad someone like that would hide behind the label of the SCA and charge people money to fight him as a novelty.

Duke Logan,

what research do you expect me to do? travel to each kingdom and barony and keep a journal of my findings before I can post about the subject? Nonsense. And I say again, I didnt say the SCA sucks....it has its place...I just think it could stand some major improvements. You say its not a LH group..I know this..you say its not a fantasy group, I know this, you said its not a re-enactment group, I know this as well, and you say its not a historical authority...so what pray tell *IS* it in your own words ( I know I can go to the homepage and read their charter).

I still stand by what I said, and until I witness or am shown something to the contrary, I'm still going to have a biased negative opinion of the organization, just as you and many others will continue to have a biased negative opinion of me.

I must also add that the Armour Archive is most definitely pro-SCA, and is mostly an SCA hangout....I dont have any issues with that, but I'd like to remind some of you folks that there is more to learning about arms and armour than playing fighter in the SCA. Check out some other sites for decent info as well. Arador would be a good place to start on a more historical/scholarly path of knowledge should anyone actually find that type of path interesting.

[Guest]

Arador would be a good place to start on a more historical/scholarly path of knowledge should anyone actually find that type of path interesting.

*Cough* Bullshit *Cough*