The Armour Archive

Greetings!

Here's the link to the new draft of the missile combat rules. This is very much still a draft, so I'm collecting input and opinions on it. I would appreciate as much feedback and opinions as possible from fighters and marshals. I still have some stuff to add to the marshal section, but there should be enough there to keep people busy

http://www.combat-archery.com/missiledraft

as I make changes and updates, I'll change the date at the top of the table of contents page. I'm also going to have a page/summary of changes, as I make them, so it will be easier for everyone to follow changes.

This will be going to the editorial staff for 2 weeks (beginning of June), so numbering, grammer and such should be corrected by them. I'm concerned that the wording is good enough so that there aren't many mis-understandings or points of confusion.

One of the things this draft does do is standardize our CA rules, as much as I could and I tried to address and clarify common misunderstandings and problems in our existing rules.

I do have a favor to ask, first please try to do constructive criticism. If you don't like something and/or think that it's worded poorly, please let me know the section number and give a suggestion on how to improve it.

I have no problems with people posting their replies here, but I would prefer it, if you could email them to me directly (it makes it easier for me to maintain my files) as well. tessathehuntress@earthlink.net

Please forward the link to other interested fighters and marshals, since the more input this draft gets, the better we can make it.

Thanks,

Tessa the Huntress, Deputy Society Marshal for Combat Archery

I take it that these are society level rules, not specific to one kingdom?

Correct this is the new draft of the missile combat rules, for Society Wide..

Individual kingdoms may have more specific rules.

The society ones establish the basic guidelines. Example, I have all of the legal blunts listed. Individual kingdoms may allow all of them, or just a few of them.

Tessa

1. I personally think the new rules do not adress the issue of the "nuclear missle". it does allow people an excuse not to call...

2. as long as there are thin shafted arrows on the field... I will fear for my eyes.

3. at some time, some where... someone will miss something safety wise...

I do not think there are any solutions acceptable to everyone so some people are going to be upset no matter how hard you try.

thanks for doing your best tess...

I find this draft better than most I have seen the last years. I think it will improve the understanding of the rules, and make more people accept them.

Thanks a bunch. by the way any word on my submitted bolt design?

AB

would it work out to add a cutaway drawing of some of the more common designs?
also you may want to address the ishue of adheasives. I know superglue is used quite commonly with exceptable resultes. but
gorilla glue seams to work much better for some aplications.

How does:

D. Common Concerns and Issues:


2. The following behavior shall be grounds to remove the fighter from the field or to declare them dead for the battle:
a. Any fighter seen or heard calling missile shots for another fighter should immediately be removed from the field.

Mesh with:

H. Calling shots:
7. No missile combatant may call another fighter "dead". If a fighter (even if it’s not the missile combatant but a fellow team-mate) calls a shot, i.e. says that arrow hit you, you are dead, repeated incidents may be grounds for removing that fighter (the one calling shots) from the field.
a. Often a giving that fighter a verbal warning is sufficient.

These are essentially the same infraction, yet give two different outcomes, leaving the situation unclear.

also

IV. Acknowledgement of Blows


11.No fighter may call another fighter "dead" or yell that the missile shot was "good". Waving at the fighter, if he/she is looking around obviously trying to spot what hit them, is acceptable. Clarifying that a missile hit the fighter and where, when the opposing fighter asks or seems confused is acceptable. Remember it is on the receiving fighters honor, as it is will all weapons to accept a good shot.

I think "or seems confused" needs to be struck out.
"Hey dude, that arrow hit you square in the face, that's a kill man"
"you, no calling shots"
"I wasnt calling, I was clarifying,He seemed confused"

I do not envy you,

RoC

Tessa, Great work but may I suggest something....

4. Upon hearing the call of "Hold" all fighting in the area of the "hold" shall immediately stop.



a. In the case of an archer, the archer must remove their bolt or arrow from their crossbow/bow. The crossbow may remain cocked and the archer may hold the missile in their hands. When the marshals say make ready, the archer may put the bolt/arrow back on their crossbow or bow string.

In the case with crossbow: I understand the safety of removing the bolt but I also think that is a tad much. It would be like telling fighters to put down there weapons and no longer hold them. May I suggest an alternetive. That on a call of Hold that crossbowmen/women aim the loaded crossbow at the ground. In case of missfire the bolt has a safe place to go. The reason I suggest this is because I have seen archers load during a hold. I was guilty of it myself untill some explained to me a hold is a 'freeze in time' and that your bow is not instantly loaded. It seemed fair. So I am guessing you will find it difficult to have marshalls enforce the 'bolt remove during hold rule'.

If those ridiculous engagement rules pass, I'll stop participating in CA battles. It's starting to get annoying, is'nt it?

what ridiculous engagement rules? Let me know what section are you talking about.

Tessa

Tessa,

I have concern about the field identifiers. White diamonds on scouts is fine, colors on helms is fine, but beyond that, a lot of us will need a field guide to keep colors and shapes straight. (A few practices ago I reformed with the wrong unit, thank God I only wear blue tape at Pennsic.)

Also,
the Tennis balls not having holes after 1/1/05 causes me concern.

I was there when we video taped a ballista bolt, which conformed to Society Rules, fired a bolt which conformed to Society Rules, at a 3/8" plywood target. On video tape, the bolt was seen to deform the plywood and crack out the back side. The second shot went through with no apparent loss of energy, and struck the wall behind the target about 6 feet back. We were raising funds to bring the society seige marshall to our Earl Marshalls practice to allow him to feel the blow issued forth by the missile. In experimentation, a puncture with a 1/16 inch drill bit resulted in a reduction in energy transmission. The bolt, modified only with a hole drilled into it, was unable to damage a similar 3/8" piece of plywood. These tests were run by the East Kingdom Earl Marshall with the additional oversight of the local siege marshall, who now lives in Lochac. Before disallowing the depressurization of the tennis balls for all missile weapons, you might want to contact Master Padraig, Oskar, or the Imperial Siege Marshall in regards to this experiment. The experiment was done approximately a year ago.

I understand this is a work in progress, and I continue to support all fighters on the field. I would like to continue to note my concern regarding undersized weapons on the field in the form of fiberglass and wooden shafts. I feel this singular issue is the root to a lot of conern over the missile combat program. Thank you for your continued efforts in bringing missile combat in line with the effectiveness of all other weapons forms, and I look forward to seeing this document in its final form.

Lothar


2. All shields used by missile combatants are only effective in blocking missile weapons.

a. If a proximity missile combatant is using a personal shield it must be marked by a large red pheon.

b. If a touch-kill missile combatant is using a personal shield it must be marked by a large white pheon.

c. If any missile combatant’s shield gets intentionally touched by a rattan weapon, while they are using or carrying their bow or crossbow, that counts as a “killâ€Â

II convetions of Combat.

A) during a hold or during the "rise if you are able" call no archer may load a bow or crossbow unless it was loaded prior to the hold being called.

Needs to be added to stop those who had fired prior to the hold being able to reload unempeded and get a free shot on the lay on.

IV #4

"4.    If a wounded limb blocks an otherwise acceptable blow, the blow shall be counted as though the limb were not there."

I have a problem with this ruling since there is no way that an arrow could have sliced,ripped,torn off a limb. If you are shot in a limb that is immoble then you just have 2 shafts sticking out of you. Not have your arm majically dissapear so your ribs are exposed. Combat archery is way to effective and off sets the balance of the game as it is. Why make it easier?

tessathehuntress wrote:Greetings!

I do have a favor to ask, first please try to do constructive criticism. If you don't like something and/or think that it's worded poorly, please let me know the section number and give a suggestion on how to improve it.

Seems like quite a reasonable request, so ...

Oengus Lok Cruithni wrote:If those ridiculous engagement rules pass, I'll stop participating in CA battles. It's starting to get annoying, is'nt it?

So you are you saying every bit of what she proposes doesn't work for you?
Why not offer up a bit more precise an answer, otherwise this answer helps no one and comes off as non-constructive criticism.

Just a thought ...

Sir Mrks,

Thanks very much for the input. I tried hard to try and make the rules as standard as I could, since I think it will help everyone (especially in the long run). However, the bad part of that is that I am changing the rules for different people (most are minor ones, or ones where it's a training issue, rather than something that can effect their pocket book. I expect that I will see and hear from people who aren't happy with the changes, some may think it's the worst thing. I'm hoping that most will see that I am trying to be fair and I have tried to "ease" the changes where I can, i.e. I tried not to make a bunch of radical changes.

Now it's time to see what people think. I believe with everyone's input and assistance that we can make this draft even better. I expect over time that CA will continue to evolve a bit more (example, most kingdoms currently either don't allow wooden shafts or they have made a rule of no new ones. So where some, like Lochac and Drachenwald will likely always keep their wooden shafts, I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't allowed or used in most or all of the US kingdoms within a few years (possibly one or 2)

Now on the nuclear missile. I think it does address some of the concerns. It does not address the sufficient force part, but in a way it does. My pet peeve.. is seeing a marshal pull a fighter or tell them that they are dead to a missile shot, when it's obvious that fighter had no idea that he was shot. This is common, when a missile hits him in the middle of a charge or when he's hitting a shield wall.

Most of the archers that I know.. in that situation, it doesn't bother us at all, if taht fighter didn't take that shot. We would just wait and shoot him again, either when he doesn't have other things hitting at the same time and/or we might look for some bare skin to hit, if we thought he couldn't feel it thru his armor.

I believe most of this will take training and some time, since we will be changing some habits and traditions for some kingdoms/areas. However, IMO.. this is how it should work... if the fighter knows that he got hit by a missile weapon, he should take it. Fighters that had no way of knowing that they got hit, shouldn't take them. If the fighters are the ones doing the calling (for whether the missile that hit them was good or not), I believe this should work just fine and it should be a fair compromise for most of the fighters on the field. They will be accepting the shots that they know hit them.

From what I've seen and heard, it bothers fighters the most when they get told (i.e. pulled off the field) for a shot that they had no idea even hit them. The new wording and training should fix most of that, it may take some time to get everyone on the same page.

My main goal with this, was to get it away from archers and marshals calling the shots and back into the hands of the fighters being struck/hit. It's going to take some effort and perhaps some examples, especially in those areas that taught their archers and marshals to do this, but I believe it will be worth it and it will solve most of these complaints/problems.

Yes, it may make it easier for some fighters to blow off or ignore missile shots. However, I believe the vast majority of fighters, if they know it was a missile hit.. will take the shot. We will always have some fighters who choose not to accept shots and those people should be treated the same, it makes no difference to me if they are blowing off spear shots or arrow shots. Once we get to where they are treated the same, I think it will be a major improvement.

I've also specified target areas, which I think helps, since a missile shot to the foot or the hand, shouldn't have any effect on that fighter, since it's not a legal target area. So it may not address all of the problems and concerns that people had with missile shots, I do think it is better.

I know a number of people who do not like the thin shafts. I know I don't like the wooden shafts, but that's based on my experience, mostly from one event and seeing all of the broken shafts. But it seems that most kingdoms are handling that themselves, which IMO is very cool.

I don't see fiberglass shafts going away, but I can see wooden ones going away (at least in most kingdoms, exception being Lochac and Drachenwald). I believe out safety standards are improving and as/if we get more manufactured choices (his Grace Baldar will be/is working with the marshallate on making one to meet our needs) for blunts and/or complete arrows/bolts.. that will make things even better (IMO).

I can't take away all of your concerns, but we are trying our best to make things as safe as we can..

Thanks for the comments, especially your last one.

Tessa

Thanks for the comments so far, especially the positive ones (grin)..

Your arrow/bolt design is being tested, by a couple of different people. I need to check with them to see what the progress/results are, since I haven't heard back from them yet.

I'll let you know. I know the marshals/fighters that I showed them to, liked them.

Tessa

Actually, under the marshal section.. Appendix C, D and E will have diagrams of APDs, blunts and missiles. It will include all of the legal ones, since I think this will realy help those marshals who have never seen x.. before. I just need to finish playing with the diagrams and upload them to my page.

It's pretty handy having an engineer in the family (grin).. I do need to get him to make the diagrams for the missiles (complete arrows, bolts, etc).. but that should happen within the next week. I wasn't as concerned with that part, since it should be easy to understand and use them. I figure it will hep with inspections and hopefully some of the newer archers, who are building their first missiles.

I agree. Right now we are having very mixed results on adhesives. Some of the ones that work well in Trimaris, don't work as well her in PA or in Canada or vice versa. I would love to have some recommended adhesives, perhaps in a list to give to people. Since we have gotten mixed results.. like gorilla glue works really good.. until it starts hitting hard surfaces, then it tends to start breaking down.

I think all adhesives have their positive and negative points and I would love to have them listed, but unfortunately right now, we don't have that list. It is something that I have on my to do list and the testing that Sir Erika is doing on adhesives, should be a major help.. right now I don't have anything definite to give people.

So I would rather wait, collect more information and data on how different adhesives work in different areas, what seems to work the best, etc.. make a list.. and send it out to the different Kingdom Combat Archery marshals. I can post it on my website as well. Then as new or improved adhesives as found, we can add them to the list. I wouldn't mind putting them in an appendix in the missile combat handbook, once we have more conclusive results.

So even though this is a good idea.. I just don't have enough information to include that in the handbook right now. I wouldn't mind expanding this to include better brands of strapping tape, electrical tape, etc.. basically so that archers can use this as a guideline or recommended list. I hate seeing archers spend money on the cheap stuff, then having to replace it with the better quality stuff, once it fails inspection. I think most people will get the good quality stuff, if they know what to get and where to find it.

If you have any sources/suppliers and experience with any specific adhesives, please let me know. I do have a list that I'm working on and that I'm adding data to, as I find it.. I just have other projects right now that are taking up more of my time.

Thanks,

Tessa

would it work out to add a cutaway drawing of some of the more common designs?
also you may want to address the ishue of adheasives. I know superglue is used quite commonly with exceptable resultes. but
gorilla glue seams to work much better for some aplications.[/quote]

[quote="Robert of Canterbury"]How does:

D. Common Concerns and Issues:


2. The following behavior shall be grounds to remove the fighter from the field or to declare them dead for the battle:
a. Any fighter seen or heard calling missile shots for another fighter should immediately be removed from the field.

Mesh with:

H. Calling shots:
7. No missile

***Tessa I had changed some of that yesterday. I missed the second section. I just got finished fixing them, so let me know if that works better. I also combined the 2 areas in the marshal section that mentioned calling shots, into just one. Let me know if you like that part better.

"I think "or seems confused" needs to be struck out.
"Hey dude, that arrow hit you square in the face, that's a kill man"
"you, no calling shots"
"I wasnt calling, I was clarifying,He seemed confused"

***Tessa.. ok I changed the confused part to: if the opposing fighter asks or if they appear to be looking for what hit them.

I think that will work better, since it's usually pretty obvious when the fighter is trying to figure out what hit them.

Thanks for the help.

Tessa

tessathehuntress wrote:

Robert of Canterbury wrote:How does:...

Mesh with:...

Actually, I don't see a problem with that. One addresses screaming accross the field, "Hey you, you're dead. I shot you."

The other implies something more like, "Psst Hey, that was an arrow and somebody just shot you."

Not really the same level of offense. The same people will continue to ignore arrow shots as always and sometimes people won't be able to help saying something. If it's not even an archer and it's not said rudely, should it really be an automatic ejection for the day?

actually I changed this section a bit Duke Gaston.. this is the new wording:

7. No missile combatant may call another fighter “deadâ€Â

Ok, rather than doing separate posts for everything, I'm going to try and respond to the other outstanding questions, all in this post.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
***Tessa good point, I'll add that.

II convetions of Combat.

A) during a hold or during the "rise if you are able" call no archer may load a bow or crossbow unless it was loaded prior to the hold being called.

Needs to be added to stop those who had fired prior to the hold being able to reload unempeded and get a free shot on the lay on.

***Tessa another good point. I cut and pasted most of the limb/target zones from the fighters handbook and I didn't really think about this line. I've deleted #4 from the rules. Thanks.

IV #4
"4. If a wounded limb blocks an otherwise acceptable blow, the blow shall be counted as though the limb were not there."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have concern about the field identifiers. White diamonds on scouts is fine, colors on helms is fine, but beyond that, a lot of us will need a field guide to keep colors and shapes straight. (A few practices ago I reformed with the wrong unit, thank God I only wear blue tape at Pennsic.)

***Tessa Actually, it should be pretty easy. If it's an archer, they will have a pheon (an arrowhead). Red means they are non-contact/proximity kill. white means they are touch kill. Full contact archers will wear nothing. Now if you are in Lochac (australia) they wear plumes, but that won't effect us at our events here.

At most you will see 2 helm markings on the field at the same time. I expect that there will either be touch kill or non-contact/proximity kill archers on the field at the given time. Given the locations of the kingdoms that have those archers, I highly doubt that you will see a mixture of them, even at the major interkingdom events.

It's actually less helm markings.. and only 3 types of archers, rather than 8 or 9 different types that we had before. So it should be simpler. Now all touch-kill archers die the same. All non-contact/proximity kill archers die the same way.. and full contact stays the same. So it should be much simpler on the field. Once we've had some experience with them on the field, I expect everyone will be much happier.

"Also,
the Tennis balls not having holes after 1/1/05 causes me concern."

****Tessa actually, this only applies to javelins, arrows, etc. It does not refer to siege. Siege has it's own rules and I have nothing to do with them. We did debate this at length on the CA marshals list, since currently, it depends on the kingdom as to whether you could or couldn't have a hole or a slot in the tennis balls. Some require it, where others don't allow it. Due to the differences, it also meant that you couldn't use those missiles in another kingdom that had different ones. Once you make that hole you can't undo it.

I checked to see the reasons. Making a hole can help make the tennis ball compress a bit under foot. However, in practice, it really doesn't make much difference. Now when you make a hole, it's much more likely that you will get small rocks, dirt, mud or even water inside the tennis ball. Which will come out of that hole on impact. So between the tennis ball possibly rolling under foot (when we already have rocks, swords, branches, etc on our fields) and getting debris inside, that could come out in someone's eye's.. guess what we took as the preferred risk and which one we didn't want to take that risk with. This was debated at length and it was decided that not having holes was the better choice.

Just FYI..
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
now on unloading the crossbow. This is actually standard practice in a lot of areas. We seem to be starting to get some different practices on what an archer should and shouldn't do, specifically during the hold. So by spelling it out here, the intent was to have everyone do the same thing. Some areas actually want their crossbow archers to un-cock their crossbow, which I don't think is fair or neccessary.

IMO, it is a safety factor to have the archer whether they are using a bow or crossbow to unload their missile. It makes it safer. It also shows the marshal that they know there is a hold on, since sometimes there is confusion and marshals have been shot or near-missed by archers who didn't understand it was a hold.

I actually don't see a problem getting this enforced and following this, since it will be in print. I think it will clear up some of the current problems.. and having a consistent standard for what archers are to do is helpful.

It is a slightly different step from what the rattan fighter do, but not much different than the marshals asking fighters to lay their spears down. Expecting achers to keep their bows/crossbows pointing at the ground the entire time of a hold isn't feasible, especially during one of those 30 minute medical ones or if the marshals are moving them around due to a safety issue.

It only takes a few seconds to take an arrow or bolt off of the bow or crossbow.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

ok on calling shots. I realized I had actually written two different versions, this one is for the fighter section:

3. No missile combatant shall call the results of his shots. I.e. He may not say “you are deadâ€Â

Tessa, I crossposted this to the SCA chivalry group on Yahoo.

Richard Blackmoore

Great. Thanks very much for the help Sir Richard

I'm on a roll right now (fixing and updating the handbook), but once I take a break, I'll be updating the history page. I had my surgery on wednesday, so it kinda threw everything off (time-wise). I wanted to make certain that I got as many opinions and feedback as possible on the handbook, so this took first priority.

Thanks again for forwarding it to the Chiv list.

Tessa

tessathehuntress wrote:---------------------------------------------------------------------------
now on unloading the crossbow. This is actually standard practice in a lot of areas. We seem to be starting to get some different practices on what an archer should and shouldn't do, specifically during the hold. So by spelling it out here, the intent was to have everyone do the same thing. Some areas actually want their crossbow archers to un-cock their crossbow, which I don't think is fair or neccessary.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tessa

Actually I think it would be safer to have crossbowmen uncock their crossbows. The reason behind this is that 'dry firing' a crossbow is the most dangerous thing you can do to it, you stand a good chance of breaking either the string or the lath and if the lath is steel....it gets ugly. Crossbows are finicky things and the longer the hold the greater the chance of an accidental dry fire. At the draw weights of SCA combat crossbows this isnt such a big deal, on the target range it would be safer to have a loaed crossbow fired at an archery target then ask the archer to unload a possibly 250 lb target bow! Just my 2d

Geoffroi

tessathehuntress wrote:what ridiculous engagement rules? Let me know what section are you talking about.

Tessa

On first read I thought archers and marshall's were going to be calling "dead's". If that were so, I'd opt out of CA battles. Heck fire, I was looking into doing some CA myself, but anything but self determened death's would distroy the SCA combat system as we have known it for 15-30 years.

Lucian. I wasn't being anything less than constructive. The way it's going CA archery is dividing itself from the Heavy crowd. Soon, if not careful we'll have a schism like unto fenceing vs heavy, if it's not already in place?

Question:

"Fighters are allowed to attempt to block incoming missile fire with the appropriate implement (i.e. a shield)."

Does this only mean a shield? I often block arrows with my pole arm. Would that be illegal?

Need to agree with each other; one section suggests that shields only can block missile fire, the other section suggests that shields or weapons can block missile fire. I think that weapons should be able to block; it was a period practice for the Japanese, who did not carry shields.

III. 7. (...) Fighters are allowed to attempt to block incoming missile fire with the appropriate implement (i.e. a shield).

III. 13. Combat missiles, including arrows and bolts that strike a fighters shield or weapon are considered blocked and are not "good".

Actually, it's not meant to mean only shields. I had originally mentioned several options, but since a couple of kingdoms only allow shields to block shots, I was told that mentioning swords (or whatever) would cause confusion for them.

I personally took the (i.e. shields) to show one example. If that's not what it does, I'll fix it. Can I get some more opinions on it?

Now IMO, something you shouldn't block shots with would be your hand (I'm not including if you are using a sword with a baskethilt, since that is a bit different), since hands aren't legal targets.

Now something being hit, is not the same thing as blocking with it, so I tried not to get too specific with that, since I think we all understand that.

Thanks,

Tessa

These parts suck:

"...those fighters in plate need to calibrate themselves for missile weapons".

"...No special rules for missile acceptance (i.e. calling plate “proofâ€Â

[quote="Josh_Warren"]These parts suck:

"...those fighters in plate need to calibrate themselves for missile weapons".

"...No special rules for missile acceptance (i.e. calling plate “proofâ€Â

I figured I would check and see if anyone else has more feedback or questions about the new missile combat handbook (draft):

http://www.combat-archery.com/missiledraft

I'm currently working on cleaning up and adding/uploading the diagrams of the different blunts, apds, etc. It's taking a bit longer than I anticipated, but that is prob. largely due to the good drugs they gave me after the surgery making me a bit wozzy.. so I tend to work for a bit, then doze for a bit.. My days are going by pretty quickly.

If I keep on my current schedule, I'll be working on the inspection guidelines and adding the testing procedures/reports this weekend.

So continue to check, since I am making updates and some changes daily. I've actually received very limited feedback so far, much to my surprise. So if you look at it and don't have a strong opinion because you like it or it's "ok", I would love to hear that. Hearing something from people would be good.

Thanks,

Tessa
tessathehuntress@earthlink.net

How closely have you looked at the Lochac CA rules?

Would it be useful for me to forward you the email addy of one of our archery marshalls so you can discuss them?

Wooden shafts are no problem. Each shaft is taped with fibreglass tape. In my experience, I have not see one splinter in a fashion that have or could cause injury. Arrows are inspected after each battle before reuse and they are flexed in such a way, that any that are fractured, are broken and removed from play.

The bows are limited to 30lbs at 28" draw and crossbows are limited due to them being illegal in most Aussies states. 3/4" bird blunts are used.

The only addition to our armour to play with archers is mesh over our bar grilles or eye slots.

All light archers here are proximity kill and, as stated before, wear a plume on their helms. We now have mediums, or heavies that can throw stuff. They are in all respects heavies as far as killing them goes. So we only have two types to worry about.

I won't go into the minutiae, but that sums the major bits.

******
1.       Javelins:

2.    Javelins may be constructed from lengths of 1 and 1/4" inch outer diameter schedule Golf Tube or Siloflex.

3.    The use of Silo-flex, ASTM number D-2239,with a wall thickness of 1/8 inch and a 1 inch inside diameter, is also permitted or any approved equivalent. Look at Appendix C. for more specifics.

4.    No new PVC javelins as of  July 1st, 2004

5.    No PVC Javelins shall be used after July 1st, 2005

6.    Darts are a short version of javelins and follow the same construction standards.

7.    Striking tips shall be constructed according to tourney weapon thrusting tip standards.

8.    The butt end of the shaft must be covered to present a flat and solid surface
*******

Question:
Why have you disallowed PVC javelins? Calontir has been using them for years and have had great success with them.

I can put you in touch with Calontir's creators for the PVC javelins if you wish.

Javelins. I understand.

PVC is one of those things. A number of kingdoms have had problems with them breaking/shattering and causing injury. A number of kingdoms have used them for years without any problems.

What it really comes down to.. PVC can break and shatter. Siloflex if/when it breaks doesn't break into jagged and/or dangerous pieces. It's just a much safer alternative material. Especially since it can deal with weather changes much better, etc.

We debated this on the CA marshals list, for a good bit. I have tried to give people time to switch over, so it won't cause problems or un-due hardship to anyone. Something else that we've been trying to do within the CA community. When there's a change like the PVC Javelins, many of us will happily donate materials and/or finished product (javelins in this case) to anyone who is effected.

I know personally, I have quite a bit of the straight Siloflex that I would happily donate to Calontir, for it to be further distributed to anyone that is effected. I can ship it out or I'll bring it with me to Pennsic. As a matter of fact, I'll be happy to sit down and help your fighters make new javelins at some point (we can work out a good time(s). I may be making it out to Lillies, so I may be able to do it then.

Basically, I know I will (and I know there are others who will as well) be happy to help anyone change over from PVC to Siloflex (you can use golf tube, but in this instance the Siloflex will last longer).

I have had my fill of injuries (ones that we can prevent) and I'm trying to make CA as safe as I reasonably can. There's no argument that Siloflex is the safer material in this instance, so I felt it was wise to start the movement from PVC to Siloflex, now. If I can make it faster for individuals or help them with the adjustment, I'll be happy to do so. I'll post something on my website about it, so the word can get out.

I do think PVC did a decent job, in most kingdoms, but now that we have a safer option, we really should go with it.

My long .02 worth. FWIW, I believe we were all handicaped in the past, since we didn't have the internet or so many SCA people on it. Now if there is a problem, most of us will hear about it within a few days. In the past, kingdoms stayed mostly within their borders, so problems and incidents that happened in kingdom, tended to stay in kingdom. Now we have a CA marshals list (and the marshals list for KEMs) for the KDEM for CA in each kingdom.. so we can and do share information, now.

One last comment. As y'all read the rules, I believe all of you will see things that will cause some adjustment or change within your kingdom. I have tried to use transition times, when I could.. or make the changes a matter of training, rather than something that would or could effect your pocketbook. The goal was to bring the CA rules as close together as I could. One of the major benefits will be less problems and confusion over the CA rules at events, especially inter-kingdom ones. It will take some time to get everyone used to the changes and trained in any that effect them, but I believe it will be well worth it.

I have not tried to make every kingdoms rules the exact same, since that tends to be the "flavor" (for lack of a better term) that each kingdom adds to it's rules. I tried to address the major points, complaints and areas where there is confuson over what the rules are, usually they are much worse at interkingdom events. I'm trying to take the long view and I felt it was better to do a lot of little changes here, now.. then given everyone time to learn them, adjust to them and use them. Then we'll have time for the rules to settle down and we can see how well everything works.

I have tried my best to make certain that the changes are as miniminal as possible to the average fighter, most are mixtures of compromises between different kingdom rules, so while there will be some change, they shouldn't be drastic ones. I figure I'll find out pretty soon how I did.

Let me know if you or if anyone else has any questions. Most of the people in the CA community are pretty helpful, so if anyone is having problems with any of the changes, please let me know and I'll do my best to help you and/or see if I can find someone else closer that can help.

Gunnar Redsson wrote:How closely have you looked at the Lochac CA rules?

Would it be useful for me to forward you the email addy of one of our archery marshalls so you can discuss them?

Wooden shafts are no problem. Each shaft is taped with fibreglass tape. In my experience, I have not see one splinter in a fashion that have or could cause injury. Arrows are inspected after each battle before reuse and they are flexed in such a way, that any that are fractured, are broken and removed from play.

The bows are limited to 30lbs at 28" draw and crossbows are limited due to them being illegal in most Aussies states. 3/4" bird blunts are used.

The only addition to our armour to play with archers is mesh over our bar grilles or eye slots.

All light archers here are proximity kill and, as stated before, wear a plume on their helms. We now have mediums, or heavies that can throw stuff. They are in all respects heavies as far as killing them goes. So we only have two types to worry about.

I won't go into the minutiae, but that sums the major bits.

Ah yes, Lochac. Like the West 'used' to be, screening made all the difference. Then some people groused over having to use screening and the CA rules snowballed into the bofferesque thing they have become. What killed CA for me was when APD's became a Society level issue, and the more the "Society" tries to flex its corporate muscle over the Kingdoms local wisdom the more I think the SCA as a draw for martial fun deteriorates. Mark my words, once one or two of the Kingdoms are large enough to purchase their liability insurance there will be trouble, right here in River City

Geoffroi