shield flex

Donngal · Post by **Donngal** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:43 pm

Here is a picture from crown tourney in march 2004. Its between me and Duke Sir Mathias. I couldn't believe this when I saw it. The shield still has its shape. Its t-6 7075.
Donngal

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/buchan ... .dir=/973c

Christophe de Frisselle · Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:37 pm

If you'd have curved the shield, it wouldn't have done that. Did the shot get through? 7075, great stuff.

Donngal · Post by **Donngal** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:20 pm

the shield had and still does have a curve in it.

That particular shot didn't land, but one latter did.

Donngal

AllenJ · Post by **AllenJ** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:54 pm

That and remember its always better to displace a blow as opposed to trying to stop it entirely. Less stress on you and the shield as well as opens your opponent up for your counter.

Gaston de Vieuxchamps · Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:50 am

Since (as time permits) I'm trying to learn and to write about fighting I have a technical question:

What kind of blow was that? I mean do you have a name for that shot and/or what are it's mechanics.

AllenJ · Post by **AllenJ** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:22 am

Alot of the technical names and terms depend on the blade type as well as the region where you are. IE - Germans and Italians obviously call the same blow different things. Its kind of hard to tell exactly how his hand is oriented but I assume hes attempting the standard SCA 'head wrap'. This isnt really a historicaly documented cut. There are some similar ones, but not really with sword and heater. There is a sword and buckler (as well as longsword and messer) technique called a Zwerch (Ã¢â‚¬Å“Thwart BlowÃ¢â‚¬Â

Donngal · Post by **Donngal** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:44 am

What kind of blow was that? I mean do you have a name for that shot and/or what are it's mechanics.[/quote]

Judging by where his basket is and hand postion I'm pretty sure it was a flat. Basically a chop to the head.

Donngal

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:39 am

AllenJ wrote:Alot of the technical names and terms depend on the blade type as well as the region where you are. IE - Germans and Italians obviously call the same blow different things. Its kind of hard to tell exactly how his hand is oriented but I assume hes attempting the standard SCA 'head wrap'. This isnt really a historicaly documented cut.

I would have to disagree with the "wrap" termanoligy. I would call that shot an onside flat "snap" shot to the head. Simply roll the hips, extend your sword arm and rotate the palm of your hand to the "outside" of your body making the lead edge of the sword strike the opponent in the temple.

A "Wrap" shot uses the back edge of a double edged sword. A wrap shot starts the same way with the role of the hips and extend of the arm and rotating of the palm. But, at the last second you pull your hips back and role your palm back that your palm is facing the ground. That snap flips the sword from striking with the lead edge to striking with the back edge. This shot usually is imployed to get around the edge of a large sheild or to "kill" by hitting the back of the body by "wrapping" the sword around the opponent. Hence the term Wrap shot.

Although we may be talking about the same thing just from different regions, like you said in your previous post.

Johannes · Post by **Johannes** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:52 am

It is a flat snap, a flat trajectory leading edge shot with a slight shoulder roll for extra power. The shield in question is slightly light, but that's the reason people value 7075 T6, it can be moved that much and still return to its original curve without cracking. I personally don't like a shield that can be bent that much, so I use a thicker 6061.

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:49 pm

And yet I cannot use my plastic shield anymore -it sure never bent like that!

D. Sebastian · Post by **D. Sebastian** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:25 pm

Yeah, I can see it being an on-side snap and he is rebounding and about to throw the off-side return.

When I first looked, it seemed like a back-blade (as if he was throwing on-side, off-side, 1-2-1-2 combo) and threw in a back blade on one of the 1's to get over the angle of the shield.

Gaston de Vieuxchamps · Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:48 pm

Thanks for the help with the technique guys, but I think I would need video to really get what I'm after.

His hand position is almost exactly like some of the drawings in I33 and other texts which so many interpreters seem to discount as some sort of artisitc convention but which I think is an intentional depiction. If we in the SCA use a blow that looks a lot like it and has demonstrated power (one of the arguments against the hand position) then this might provide insight into the historical techniques. In order for it to be useful though, I really need accurate details.

Gaston

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:31 pm

And yet I cannot use my plastic shield anymore -it sure never bent like that! Just an Idea, but what if you glued balsa wood to it? At what point does it cease to be a wooden shield with plastic re-enforcements and start being a plastic shield with wooden accents?

-+G

Donngal · Post by **Donngal** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:12 am

[quote="Gaston de Vieuxchamps"]Thanks for the help with the technique guys, but I think I would need video to really get what I'm after.

I have this whole ight on dvd video. I could probably send it to you or have a friend do it if that would help.

Donngal

AllenJ · Post by **AllenJ** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:39 am

I think that in order to make the connection apply to what is being practiced and what was historically done- you need to be able to get as close as you can. The physical dynamics of I.33 sword and buckler techinque compared with stick-fighting on your knees with door shields are two very different animals. To even get close I'd think you would have to at least trade in the monolith shields for propper bucklers and ditch the round clubs for something with at least some semblance of an edge. At the very least, getting rid of the basket hilts and get a regular arming sword hilt. Then you'd be in much better a position to compare it to historical techniques.

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:52 pm

AllenJ wrote: There are some similar ones, but not really with sword and heater.

They finally discovered a sword and heater fechtbook????
Tell me more!

-D

AllenJ · Post by **AllenJ** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:31 am

I think you are being funny - but Im not sure?

No there is no known 'fechtbuch' describing sword and heater. The only things we have to go on is things like illuminated manuscripts in which the vast majority of the blows illustrated are very fendente/ vom tag/ zornhau -ish. I was stating that there seems to be no historical evidence (thus no 'technical term') for an SCA snap hit/ head wrap or the later period correct zwerchhau from what we have, depicting sword and heater use.