[SCA] Rules that need clarifying #2

[jester]

Basket Hilts.

Are basket hilts armor, as would seem to be implied by:

The Marshals Handbook, Edition of 2000 (online)
"VI. ARMOR REQUIREMENTS
A. Armor Construction
5. Hand and Wrist Armor - The outer surfaces of the hand and wrist of both arms must be covered by one or a combination of the following:
a. A metal basket hilt with enough bars or plates to prevent a blow from striking the fingers or the back of the hand."

or are they part of the weapon, as would seem to be implied by:

The Marshals Handbook, Edition of 2000 (online)
"VII. WEAPON STANDARDS
B. Swords
7. Swords shall have a hand guards such as a basket hilt, quillions or equivalent."

If the first is the case, then shouldn't punch-blocking and using your basket to manipulate your opponents shield be illegal?

If the second is the case then shouldn't it be legal to hold tournaments where the basket hilt may be targeted? (In case you are wondering why this would be a good thing it could be used to simulate un-armored combat scenarios.)

[dukelogan]

like many rules in the sca the first is poorly written. a basket is very much part of the weapon since it is attached to it.

your comment on using your basket to manipulate a shield strikes me with curiosity since you can use just about anything to manipulate a shield as long as you dont grapple with your opponent. what are you thinking would be illegal in that case?

regards
logan

[Heairn]

Basket Hilts.

Are basket hilts armor, as would seem to be implied by:

The Marshals Handbook, Edition of 2000 (online)
"VI. ARMOR REQUIREMENTS
A. Armor Construction
5. Hand and Wrist Armor - The outer surfaces of the hand and wrist of both arms must be covered by one or a combination of the following:
a. A metal basket hilt with enough bars or plates to prevent a blow from striking the fingers or the back of the hand."

or are they part of the weapon, as would seem to be implied by:

The Marshals Handbook, Edition of 2000 (online)
"VII. WEAPON STANDARDS
B. Swords
7. Swords shall have a hand guards such as a basket hilt, quillions or equivalent."

If the first is the case, then shouldn't punch-blocking and using your basket to manipulate your opponents shield be illegal?

No..the hand armor is just like the shields (i.e. indestructable) and you *can* use them to manipulate your opponent's shield and weapon. Never hear of shield-hooking?

If the second is the case then shouldn't it be legal to hold tournaments where the basket hilt may be targeted? (In case you are wondering why this would be a good thing it could be used to simulate un-armored combat scenarios.)

Why would you target the baskethilt? It doesn't generate a disablement of the opponent and is a waste of time and energy. In this situation, the basket is like the "indestructable shields" we have. Same thing. You *can* manipulate your opponents basket.. I do it all the time, every time they try to push my shield with their hilt, I use my shield to return the favor. It's weapon on shield contact.... no issue.

Malcolm

[Asbjorn Johansen]

like many rules in the sca the first is poorly written. a basket is very much part of the weapon since it is attached to it.

your comment on using your basket to manipulate a shield strikes me with curiosity since you can use just about anything to manipulate a shield as long as you dont grapple with your opponent. what are you thinking would be illegal in that case?

regards
logan

Not by the current Society EM’s recent ruling on grappling as I read it. If a basket hilt is armour, then it would be treated as part of your body, and intentional contact with a shield would be right out.

3. Wrestling with or grappling the opponent, to include grasping the opponent’s
torso, limbs, shield, or weapon’s striking surface, blade, or head is prohibited.

See the ruling at:

http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/news.html

I’m not saying I agree with it, but given the logic, if it is armour, then you can’t use it to manipulate a shield.

If it’s a part of the weapon then it can be targeted, however the current Society EM has purportedly said no to even experimenting with this, implying that its not part of the weapon but is armour.

Asbjorn

[Heairn]

like many rules in the sca the first is poorly written. a basket is very much part of the weapon since it is attached to it.

your comment on using your basket to manipulate a shield strikes me with curiosity since you can use just about anything to manipulate a shield as long as you dont grapple with your opponent. what are you thinking would be illegal in that case?

regards
logan

Not by the current Society EM’s recent ruling on grappling as I read it. If a basket hilt is armour, then it would be treated as part of your body, and intentional contact with a shield would be right out.

3. Wrestling with or grappling the opponent, to include grasping the opponent’s
torso, limbs, shield, or weapon’s striking surface, blade, or head is prohibited.

See the ruling at:

http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/news.html

I’m not saying I agree with it, but given the logic, if it is armour, then you can’t use it to manipulate a shield.

If it’s a part of the weapon then it can be targeted, however the current Society EM has purportedly said no to even experimenting with this, implying that its not part of the weapon but is armour.

Asbjorn

Actually, you take that out of context. He says "Grappling is any intentional or overt contact of hands/feet/appendages to the other fighter’s person," not their "Armor." This is then ADDED to the thou shalt not "GRASP an opponent's shield..etc."

So.. as I read all that, it says "keep your mitts (not your armor..that's irrelevant.) off of the other person" but I *can* move his shield, so long as it's not "grabbed." Otherwise, this WILL outlaw a shieldhook.

Malcolm

[Asbjorn Johansen]

[quote="Heairn
No..the hand armor is just like the shields (i.e. indestructable) and you *can* use them to manipulate your opponent's shield and weapon. Never hear of shield-hooking?

If the second is the case then shouldn't it be legal to hold tournaments where the basket hilt may be targeted? (In case you are wondering why this would be a good thing it could be used to simulate un-armored combat scenarios.)

Why would you target the baskethilt? It doesn't generate a disablement of the opponent and is a waste of time and energy. In this situation, the basket is like the "indestructable shields" we have. Same thing. You *can* manipulate your opponents basket.. I do it all the time, every time they try to push my shield with their hilt, I use my shield to return the favor. It's weapon on shield contact.... no issue.

Malcolm[/quote]

The basket hilt as a shield is an interesting concept, but it doesn’t match up well with the feedback purportedly given from the current Society EM that you can’t intentionally target them.

As it stands, from common practice, not the rules, you can intentionally block with them.
In some areas they are allowed to be targeted in common practice. For example in a melee a spear may thrust a basket hilt to get past it when its guarding a shieldman’s face. In other areas this practice is considered inappropriate.

If it is a weapon or shield it should be able to be targeted.

If it is armour and you block with it, and your area has a target substitution standard, then you are breaking the rules.

The rules are not clear.

[mrks]

nothing better than a hard snap to a hilt blocker...

followed by a shield hook to the basket hilt...

resulting in bending someone over to lightly tap them where you so desire... the look on their face is priceless.

hehe

edit: your grace all my ti stuff is still on the way back from pennsic. I sent it home with earl amalric who is three hours away.

[Asbjorn Johansen]

like many rules in the sca the first is poorly written. a basket is very much part of the weapon since it is attached to it.

your comment on using your basket to manipulate a shield strikes me with curiosity since you can use just about anything to manipulate a shield as long as you dont grapple with your opponent. what are you thinking would be illegal in that case?

regards
logan

Not by the current Society EM’s recent ruling on grappling as I read it. If a basket hilt is armour, then it would be treated as part of your body, and intentional contact with a shield would be right out.

3. Wrestling with or grappling the opponent, to include grasping the opponent’s
torso, limbs, shield, or weapon’s striking surface, blade, or head is prohibited.

See the ruling at:

http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/news.html

I’m not saying I agree with it, but given the logic, if it is armour, then you can’t use it to manipulate a shield.

If it’s a part of the weapon then it can be targeted, however the current Society EM has purportedly said no to even experimenting with this, implying that its not part of the weapon but is armour.

Asbjorn

Actually, you take that out of context. He says "Grappling is any intentional or overt contact of hands/feet/appendages to the other fighter’s person," not their "Armor." This is then ADDED to the thou shalt not "GRASP an opponent's shield..etc."

So.. as I read all that, it says "keep your mitts (not your armor..that's irrelevant.) off of the other person" but I *can* move his shield, so long as it's not "grabbed." Otherwise, this WILL outlaw a shieldhook.

Malcolm

No I stand by my interpretation (since I was one of the people the rule was addressed to). Look at the statement within the rest of the context of the rules. Armour is always considered part of your "person" or body elsewhere. We tried to pass open handed pushes, elbow pushes, etc. Things that had been acceptable within the standards of the East’s interpretation of grappling before the SEM's ruling. You can't use your body to manipulate anything other then your opponent's weapon now. If a basket hilt is armour, its part of your body and your opponent can't intentionally touch it with his shield, nor can you do it back.

If the basket hilt is armour... that is still the question

[Bedlam]

Wait a minute. Are you saying that now I cannot hip check someone's shield and send them over a hay bale?

[Heairn]

by that interpretation and all that..yes.

Guess the "Champion's" Battles this year that happened at Pennsic were all just one, big Illegal happening.

....
Malcolm

[Asbjorn Johansen]

Lots of things happen that the rules say shouldn't happen.

If your hip check invovles something other then weapon on body contact, then accoridng to the current SEM's ruling, if its not incedental contact its illegal.

[Talan Gwyllt]

To add fuel to the fire...

If the basket hilt is part of the weapon as I suspect it is then you can grab it with a full gauntlet like you would the quilions of a greatsword. You are grabbing the non bladed part of the weapon.

[Bedlam]

Lame. Heck let's see how they can make things even more difficult for non-shield users.

When I fight S&S, sometimes if my opponent closes, I punch the blocking corner of their shield with my basket hilt to blind him. Since I am trying to go to a more authentic kit, I want to make a Turkic saber with a simple quillion. According to the above interpretation, shield punching with the basket would be ok, but not so with the same exact move albeit it with a gauntleted fist holding a sword.

Double Lame.

[InsaneIrish]

Wait a minute. Are you saying that now I cannot hip check someone's shield and send them over a hay bale?

To my knowledge you NEVER could. Just like you can't use a tied up weapon to "throw" your oponent to the ground. Now that doesn't mean it doesn't happen and usually it is considered just part of the game we play. Unless of course you are to blatent in doing it.

To my knowledge as long as you don't GRAB your oponent's shield you can reach out and "punch" it.

The rule is not saying you can't contact the shield it is saying you can't grab and wrench it out of the way with a part of your body that can't be targeted.


Whether basket hilted or gauntleted the hands are Illegal targets and can't be intentionally hit. So, whether or not the basket hilt is sword or armour it is a mute point.

[dukelogan]

everyone take a deep breath.

it is my interpretation of the rules that i can indeed make body to body and/or body to shield contact, as long as i dont grapple, at any time. hip check, elbow to the shield, slapping the basket away with my shield, punching the basket with my basket, etc, etc.

until the society earl marshal specifically addresses that i will continue to read the current standard as saying those actions are acceptable. however, if the current earl marshal deems them to not be then i hope he is replaced with someone not wishing to make this a game of tag. i dont suspect the latter is the case.

regards
logan

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

As to the shield issue:

The word used in the rules is GRASP.... so you can hip check, shoulder bump, shield clash, weapon hook a shield or otherwise manipulate it, as long as you do not grasp it.

[Asbjorn Johansen]

3. Wrestling with or grappling the opponent, to include grasping the opponent’s
torso, limbs, shield, or weapon’s striking surface, blade, or head is prohibited.

This rule came first from the Marshal’s Handbook. I recall it being in prior versions, but I don’t have documentary evidence to back that up.

This rule was fine (well some of us had issues with it and wanted to be able to do experiments around it). Different kingdoms and areas had different interpretations of what grappling meant. In the areas I trained we took it to mean exclusively “graspingâ€Â

[blackbow]

wait just a second here...

If grappling consists of any contact by your body other than incidental with your opponent, then does that mean that I'm not allowed to either A) stand up to (refuse a charge) a charging shieldman with my 2-weapon or B) countercharge said shieldman???

If that's the case, then why, pray tell, is it perfectly acceptable to do the exact same thing with a shield-to-shield contact?\

If this rule is going to stand as written then we're going to have to put restrictions on shieldmen to keep them from simply running any non-shield-equipped fighters down, the way they do now.

[Heairn]

Exactly. What we have here is the result of ruleslawyers.

You know what the intent is.. the EM doesn't want you using unprotected hands to mess around in combat. He considers a basket to be acceptable protection and a gauntlet is not. Add to that, we have here an attempted use to "gray area" the whole grasping thing.

Some folks don't seem to get the idea, and so the rule had to be rewritten. .. and as long as there are those who want to push the gray area, it will continue to happen.

Malcolm

[dukelogan]

if that is the case it is a very sad attempt to write rules. not to mention it further robs the spirit from what sca sport combat should be. a better definition for grappling is all that is needed. this would include, without doubt, taking a gauntleted hand and grasping a shield (as well as any other examples).

more common sense is what is needed, not more rules. of course i had to go so far as to write an additional set of marshallate guidelines to enforce rules already in place regarding modern items on the field. so i guess common sense isnt so common.

regards
logan

[blackbow]

Here's the response from the SEM. And yeah, I started off cranky. LOL

Regards,

Jonathan Blackbow

Jonathan,
Do you need a nap? You seem cranky.
Seriously, chill out. The grappling thing is not meant to make you (or me ) an easy target for shieldmen. Using counter charges with great weapons or poles, hip and body checking while armed that way are perfectly OK by me. I've done it and will continue to do so. I've flipped more than my share of guys off bridges.

What I don't want is excessive wrestling and that's what I believe you get into when you start laying your hands on people/equipment. Or when folks start tripping each other, blah, blah. Or if a pole gets hooked over a head, for example.

A little contact is good thing. So keep on swingin' brother and don't let the Man ( shield or otherwise ) get you down.

And you may quote me.

Robert Glendon of Auk
Society Marshal

Jonathan Blackbow wrote:

Your Excellency: I quote your email from armourarchive.org. I just got done telling the Rapier community about this, so I guess this is timely.
I believe that a common misconception persists about grappling; to wit, it only consists of "grabbing". Now, I know that the Society level rules are not very explicit but I'm about to fix that.
Grappling is any intentional or overt contact of hands/feet/appendages to the other fighter’s person. Pushing, slapping, tripping, knee leverages and falling on, head butting, etc., all apply. Incidental contact, during a charge for example, is not the same thing and is going to happen. Allowances have to be made during Melee/close combat. I am not saying incidental contact will not be made during tourney fighting but the occurrence is low and the differences clearer.

I do not know why, but the Pas Dispensation and the current study of later period fighting techniques have bred a host of confusions. Let me state for the record that no one in the SCA, in any combat form or class, is allowed to grapple.

Having said that, it may interest some to know that I have appointed a committee to study such things as Fechtbuch and other period disciplines. No promises are made but this office is trying to figure out how/if these things can be done or should be done.

Until you hear from your friendly Society Marshal though, ya'll keep your hands to yourself.

Robert Glendon of Auk
Society Earl Marshal wait just a second here... If grappling consists of any contact by your body other than incidental with your opponent, then does that mean that I'm not allowed to either A) stand up to (refuse a charge) a charging shieldman with my 2-weapon or B) countercharge said shieldman??? I see where you say incidental contact during a charge is not counted. Does that mean that if some shieldman charges me on a tournament field while I'm fighting two-sword that I CAN, in fact, hip check or body check him? If that's not the case, then why, pray tell, is it perfectly acceptable to do the exact same thing with a shield-to-shield contact? If this rule is going to stand as written then we're going to have to put restrictions on shieldmen to keep them from simply running any non-shield-equipped fighters down, the way they do now. I started hip checking / body checking people that charged me while I was fighting two sword because I resented the fact that they were essentially hiding behind an impenetrable shield. Regards, Ld. Jonathan Blackbow

[dukelogan]

absolutely!

logan