The Armour Archive

A few friends and myself are trying to start a group, and we have decided to go with boffer combat. what kind of armour standards should we use?

Grendal

I suggest you look at Dagorhir. I think their rules are the best for boffer fighting.

mike b

I find it odd that a group with such strict standards for period materials, and construction techniques that are almost SCA legal (16 ga and so forth) are fighting boffer.
It seems a waste to me. I mean why put that much money/time into steel plate or maille if you're only gonna hit it with a pool noodle?

Hi, Grendal. I joined Dagorhir several months ago.

You don't need armor for boffer combat. Dagorhir doesn't require it, but people wearing it get an advantage under the rules system as far as being able to disregard certain hits. To offset this advantage, their armor is required to be of heavy materials, such as thick leather or steel (no aluminum). So, they can take more blows, but their armor slows them down.

What kind of boffer weapons are you using and how hard do you hit with them? The harder you hit, the sturdier and safer the weapons should be. Pool noodles are fine if you're tapping, but they probably won't last long if you're hitting forcefully.

You might find the Dagorhir weapons standards and designs more useful than the armor standards. Our weapons are required and designed to be safe for solidly hitting an unarmored person. They're made of multiple layers of closed-cell foam over a PVC or fiberglass rod.

I believe SCA has boffer combat for people under 18. If they use armor, then you should check their armor standards.

Hope this is helpful.

Mac Thamhais wrote:I find it odd that a group with such strict standards for period materials, and construction techniques that are almost SCA legal (16 ga and so forth) are fighting boffer.
It seems a waste to me. I mean why put that much money/time into steel plate or maille if you're only gonna hit it with a pool noodle?

Armor is optional in Dagorhir.

It's suprisingly fun to melee in just garb. That battles are fast and furious, and there is no LARPy element to the combat rules. SCA fighters crossing over may find it comfortably familiar.

My only beef is with people who form an opinion of it without having done it.

Depending on where one lives, Belegarth may be a better option. My advice is to check both websites to determine who has an active practice near where you live.

Only Dagorhir and Belegarth that I know of are straight-up combat games. All the other boffer LARPs are more LARPy and less combat sport.

You can check out www.ordoprocinctus.com . We are somewhere in between boffer and pure rattan.

Mac Thamhais wrote:I find it odd that a group with such strict standards for period materials, and construction techniques that are almost SCA legal (16 ga and so forth) are fighting boffer.
It seems a waste to me. I mean why put that much money/time into steel plate or maille if you're only gonna hit it with a pool noodle?

Different philosophies. SCA 'pads' the fighter. Dagorhir 'pads' the weapon. Each makes trade-offs. Dagorhir decided long ago that if someone wanted to have the advantages offered by armor then they should have real armor and not stuff that just looks like armor.

Dagorhir targets everything below the neck. They allow grappling. Because armor is not required they can pick up weapons and be fighting in less time than it takes folks in the SCA to put their helmet on. Dagorhir doesn't pretend to be an organization that does historical research and they are quite clear on why they fight. They had combat archery when the SCA was still trying to decide if women could fight.

My post recieved at leats two replies, and now the matter makes much more sense.
I was unaware that the armour was optional, and also that the wearing of it was designed to represent the actual impairment of mobility.
I retract my comments, and offer thanks to those who enlightened me.

our weapons are sch40 1/2 pvc covered in closed cell foam with duck tape around that. We will be hitting full force but not hard enough to kill someone.
we are just trying to make sure we are adiquatley protected so that everyone goes home without broken bones or nothing more than just a bruse. We have already decided on helmets, padded gloves, and cups at a minnimum. I am considering kidney protection but i'm not sure if it is nessesary.

grendal

grendal wrote:our weapons are sch40 1/2 pvc covered in closed cell foam with duck tape around that. We will be hitting full force but not hard enough to kill someone.
grendal

LOL, never heard a boffer fighter refer to their weapon as being able to kill someone

grendal wrote:our weapons are sch40 1/2 pvc covered in closed cell foam with duck tape around that. We will be hitting full force but not hard enough to kill someone.
we are just trying to make sure we are adiquatley protected so that everyone goes home without broken bones or nothing more than just a bruse. We have already decided on helmets, padded gloves, and cups at a minnimum. I am considering kidney protection but i'm not sure if it is nessesary.

grendal

I would recommend going with fiberglass rather than PVC. The fiberglass (bicycle flag style) is a little more expensive but it lasts much longer and it doesn't break the way that PVC does. You'll also be able to get weapons that don't look like clubs.

I would suggest going with some sort of helmet in your fighting I think it will give you a more realistic fight than not targeting the head.

Kylan

Grendal, Dagorhir veterans tell me that lots of duct tape on the outside of a weapon makes it stiffer and makes it hit harder. If you'll be wearing helmets and body armor, that may not be a problem. If you want armor to be optional, then you may want to minimize the use of tape on the striking surfaces of the weapons.

MacThamais, thank you for your graciousness in admitting error.

Does anybody here play with that group out of Quebec?
WHat rules fo they use. From what I have seen on their site their collective standards are quite high. Which is just marvelous. It seems to me that if the entry level for combat is effectively the unarmoured peasant, then you will get fewer people wearing MadMax retreads and calling it medieval armour. Of course this particualr group is obviously fantasy based, but they look like they are having a blast.
Here is the link.
I speak no french so it all looks greek to me.
http://www.bicolline.org/

I will have to remember to use less duck tape then. Tanks to all for your input.

almost forgot, If I was to make armour what guage of steel should I use at the minnimum?

Grendal

16 in dagorhir standards, steel or equiv, aluminum and modern materials are no dice... which unfortunately leaves lamellar pretty much out:(

I'll be working on convincing some local realms to allow 20g SS that I got from WMA (there are some people that crossover from Dagorhir to SCA you know ) But that would only be admissible for local rules on a case by case basis.

If you'd like it a little more advanced...

All metal must be penny round or rolled so there's no sharp edges. No metal elbow or knee cops... and nobody is going to want to punch block hard gauntlets either.

Keep in mind unarmored or lesser armored combatants may grapple you, you aren't going to want any sharp protrusions or nifty gaps to get fingers stuck into... Bargrills are out for helms for that reason...

Dagorhir's insane requirement that metal armour be no thinner than 16ga is just plain stupid. I've gotten into some nasty slugfests over on their national message board over this very issue. They seem to have done absolutely no research on historical armour thicknesses before instituting the rule, and just made assumptions about the weight based on their own biased, childish, RPG-induced notions as to what real armour should weigh.

I can't decide whether or not the "Old Guard" who runs the organization really and truly does believe that real armour was at least the equivalent of 16ga, or if they just don't want to change the long-standing rule out of shee hard-headedness...

I would recommend going with fiberglass rather than PVC.

where do you find this fiberglass? i cant find any thats less 'whippy' than conduit.

Back in the day we used to "rescue" golf flags for this purpose...

Mac Thamhais wrote:I find it odd that a group with such strict standards for period materials, and construction techniques that are almost SCA legal (16 ga and so forth) are fighting boffer.
It seems a waste to me. I mean why put that much money/time into steel plate or maille if you're only gonna hit it with a pool noodle?

My understanding of the minimum age (18 yrs) for SCA rattan and rapier combat is that it has to do with the notion that whacking minors with heavy clubs or poking at them with steel swords constitutes "child abuse" in many states. (Never mind olympic fencing - that's deemed to be grandfathered in, with supposedly long history of rigorous standards for training and supervision by responsible experts, yadda-yadda-yaddah.)

If Dagorhir has a low (or no) minimum age requirement, perhaps the same reasoning applies?

Galfrid wrote:where do you find this fiberglass? i cant find any thats less 'whippy' than conduit.

Have you checked out fibreglass tension bars? These are bars that are 5/8" wide by 1/4" thick, and the thin edges are rounded. They are used in chain link fences at the ends of the run to clamp the mesh to the posts, and not allow the mesh to sag. I've seen them in 4 and 5 foot lengths, green, grey, or white. About 1 or 2 bucks apiece at your local "Rome Depot" hardware store, in the section for (so to speak) fencing.
In Canada, they have them at Kent Building Supplies as well.

From http://www.geotekinc.com/fibermax.html - a closeup view, the skinny vertical bar:
[img]http://www.geotekinc.com/art/fibmax.jpg[/img]
They're about as whippy as an epee or thin schlager blade, but only side-to-side.

I just happened to have one on hand because I plan to cut one in half to make an SCA crossbow prod. A double layer of 24" long bars gives about 50 pounds of pull at a 12" draw.

Why not use rattan as the core? I bought some 3/4" rattan and it works great! It will not break like PVC and it flexs nicely to accept the blow. (instead of breaking your arm)

Hew:

Dagorhir has a minimum age requirement of 16 for national events. Local groups vary, some having 15 as the minimum for participation in battles. Some groups, like mine, allow younger kids at practices (but not battles) if their parent signs a waiver.

The age minimum is there because it is a full-contact sport (except for head shots), albeit with foam weapons. People knock other people over with their padded shields, or accidentally collide. It's felt (as far as I know) that younger kids run a higher risk of getting hurt because they're generally smaller and lighter. I'm small and light, too, but I'm an adult who can assume the risk.

WHy would that leave out lamellar?

The Lost Celt wrote:16 in dagorhir standards, steel or equiv, aluminum and modern materials are no dice... which unfortunately leaves lamellar pretty much out:(

I'll be working on convincing some local realms to allow 20g SS that I got from WMA (there are some people that crossover from Dagorhir to SCA you know ) But that would only be admissible for local rules on a case by case basis.

If you'd like it a little more advanced...

All metal must be penny round or rolled so there's no sharp edges. No metal elbow or knee cops... and nobody is going to want to punch block hard gauntlets either.

Keep in mind unarmored or lesser armored combatants may grapple you, you aren't going to want any sharp protrusions or nifty gaps to get fingers stuck into... Bargrills are out for helms for that reason...

Lamellar (or any armour in which the metal pieces overlap to any significant degree, for that matter...) would be stupidly, inaccurately, and unnecessarily heavy if made of 16 gauge steel lamellae.

Hey grendel, I started up a group in Washington State about 2 years ago now. We were unsatisfied with what the SCA had to offer (no disrespect, love hanging out at sca events, just not my thing for combat). On the other hand, i really didnt want to swing fun noodle at people in groups like amtgard or dagorhir. The alternative we created is between the two groups, we use modified shinais and solid core boffers and swing at id say 80-90% of full strength. We have no armor requirments, except helmets or chain and padded coif in large melees. Armour reacts as it should, it protects from certain blows and impacts. IF you want to check it out our site is www.athair.org

On the matter of lamellar, leather lamellar, especially in Japanese form, is legal and popular in Dagorhir. I've also seen someone with metal lamellar, but the lamellae didn't seem to overlap by much.

I like the ring of fire!!!!
I'm gonna have to suggest we try that one out!

Ultra cool dude!

I agree with you Turalyon Gilnea. I have already come up with some rules and armour requirements (almos no armour at all). I didn't like the SCA because I'm a poor man and alot of my friends are, so we can't afford armour. But we also wanted something safe that people 12 and up can enjoy. I will have to visit your site and see how things are run. perhaps I will follow the same rules you have.

Grendal.

Olaf Haraldson wrote:WHy would that leave out lamellar?

I'm sorry, I should have worded that differently I suppose, but Josh pretty much summed it up here:

Josh Warren wrote:Lamellar (or any armour in which the metal pieces overlap to any significant degree, for that matter...) would be stupidly, inaccurately, and unnecessarily heavy if made of 16 gauge steel lamellae.

There is nothing wrong with lamellar and like others pointed out leather lamellar is rather popular... I myself have some rivited scale using lamellar plates.

Gonna raise a point here...

I find it odd that a group with such strict standards for period materials, and construction techniques that are almost SCA legal (16 ga and so forth) are fighting boffer.
It seems a waste to me. I mean why put that much money/time into steel plate or maille if you're only gonna hit it with a pool noodle?

*Grin* That's a lot like saying why bother wearing a steel SCA kit when you could just buy plastic eh? It all boils down to aesthetics I guess, and a sense pride. Since steel offers no additional benefit over leather armor we sort of get a cookie cutter thing going on here for purely competitive reasons, and then there's the handful that don't care if we win or lose we just want to look good doing it

Most people in Dagorhirrim who are wearing steel currently are probably using it in SCA too... A few of us are just irked because we can't use our expensive steel kit to a dag related event and we wanna look like badasses

Thanks Sir Victor its was a blast fighting in the ring, we had a bunch of drummers bringing up a nice beat to go along with it =), Grendel EMail me at LordTuralyon@athair.org or IM me on TuralyonGilnea with AIM.