The Armour Archive

I had a pair of fingered gauntlets fail armor inspection at harvest moon because the metal doesnt touch the weapon. Heres the meridies armor standards

7. Hand and Wrist Armor:

a. The outer surfaces of the hands and wrists of both arms must be covered by one or a combination of the following:

i. Gauntlets of heavy leather lined with closed cell foam or heavy padding. A hockey glove, well constructed and in good repair, is considered the equivalent.

ii. A basket hilt made of rigid material with enough bars or plates to prevent a blow from striking the fingers or the back of the hand. If a basket hilt is used, supplemental protection (usually in the form of a half-gauntlet of metal or heavy leather backed with foam) is required to cover the back of the hand and wrist, including the lowest joint of the thumb.

iii. A gauntlet made of rigid plates, either lined with padding or closed cell foam, or designed to transfer potentially injurious impact to the surfaces being grasped.

iv. A shield basket. Note that the protected areas must conform to the same requirements as outlined in V.A.7.a.ii above.

b. The steel used in the basket hilt or in the gauntlets must not cause injury to the user, the opponent, or weapons (i.e. no projections or sharp edges). All welds and rivets on the basket hilt or gauntlets must be intact.

So, my padded fingered gauntlets(16 gauge steel, using strips of a mouse pad as padding) would fall under category iii. Nowhere does it say the metal of the gauntlet must come into contact with the weapon. Where the hell do these marshals get thier armor standards from? The known world handbook printed in the 1970s?

Your kidding right?

Read Item iii again.

ii. A gauntlet made of rigid plates, either lined with padding or closed cell foam, or designed to transfer potentially injurious impact to the surfaces being grasped.

Frankly "mouse pad" hardly qualifies as padding. And is a very weak attempt at Closed cell foam. And if the inspecting marshal didn't see the "foam", and the gauntlets do not ground out, I can see how they would be bounced.

However, you could make an arguement for letter of the law, which you pass.
But you fail in the spirt of the Law, which is simply "We don't want you to hurt yourself."

Your Kingdoms given method of inspection makes me wonder how you got tagged.

e. Hands and Wrists: Check the gauntlet and/or basket hilt. Look to see if the gauntlet will pinch the hand if it is hit. Check for sharp edges or missing rivets, or other signs that the equipment is falling apart. Check to see if the basket hilt has openings in it large enough to easily permit a sword to strike the hand.

"Yep he's got gauntlets. Nope they are not broken. Nope they are not gonna cut anyone. You pass. NEXT!"

There seem to be two kinds of marshals. The by the book ones and the ones who are marshalling from the top of their heads.
Too often I have seen "Cosmetic Armour" slip pass the marshals. "yep he had on a gorget." Yes but, it was made from a nylon seatbelt and had no padding. Or, on the other hand, "I won't pass your steel gorget cause you only have 3/8th closed cell foam not a 1/2' of close cell foam."

Show the marshal that the armour works. That is all they really should be looking for. Let someone smack your finger gauntlets and show the marshal that they work as advertised. (If you have not tested them yet maybe you should.)

Drachus wrote:I had a pair of fingered gauntlets fail armor inspection at harvest moon because the metal doesnt touch the weapon. Heres the meridies armor standards

7. Hand and Wrist Armor:

a. The outer surfaces of the hands and wrists of both arms must be covered by one or a combination of the following:

i. Gauntlets of heavy leather lined with closed cell foam or heavy padding. A hockey glove, well constructed and in good repair, is considered the equivalent.

ii. A basket hilt made of rigid material with enough bars or plates to prevent a blow from striking the fingers or the back of the hand. If a basket hilt is used, supplemental protection (usually in the form of a half-gauntlet of metal or heavy leather backed with foam) is required to cover the back of the hand and wrist, including the lowest joint of the thumb.

iii. A gauntlet made of rigid plates, either lined with padding or closed cell foam, or designed to transfer potentially injurious impact to the surfaces being grasped.

iv. A shield basket. Note that the protected areas must conform to the same requirements as outlined in V.A.7.a.ii above.

b. The steel used in the basket hilt or in the gauntlets must not cause injury to the user, the opponent, or weapons (i.e. no projections or sharp edges). All welds and rivets on the basket hilt or gauntlets must be intact.

So, my padded fingered gauntlets(16 gauge steel, using strips of a mouse pad as padding) would fall under category iii. Nowhere does it say the metal of the gauntlet must come into contact with the weapon. Where the hell do these marshals get thier armor standards from? The known world handbook printed in the 1970s?

Who made the gauntlets and who was the inspecting marshal?

Lord Magnus Black wrote:

Drachus wrote:So, my padded fingered gauntlets(16 gauge steel, using strips of a mouse pad as padding) would fall under category iii. Nowhere does it say the metal of the gauntlet must come into contact with the weapon. Where the hell do these marshals get thier armor standards from? The known world handbook printed in the 1970s?

Who made the gauntlets and who was the inspecting marshal?

I would be interested to know that too, but the truth is, I have pretty much been told that "stick to stick" is the was the way that gauntlets have to be in order to be considered "transferring the force to the surface grasped".

It really bugs me to get bounced on hand protection. I mean, breaking a finger sucks, but it isn't life threatening, and it doesn't even nessessarily put you out of fighting for the day.

Your hand swells up like a balloon, and hurts like hell, but you can still fight.

But the stick to stick thing isn't new in Meridies. It was being used there when I was a marshal five years ago.

freiman

Lewis Moore made my gauntlets. I padded them myself

http://members.aol.com/knightsarmoury/k ... ry_001.htm

Sebastion, are you speaking from experience or supposition? I have USED the gauntlets EXTENSIVELY. Never a broken bone. Before I padded them my knuckle would get cracked by a rivet but not ever since I padded them with the mouse pad(which is MORE than sufficient padding, I wish it werent so rigid, and hope it will break in from using it a lot). Frankly, you can hit my gauntlets as hard as you can with any legal weapon and probably not even bruise my hand. It MIGHT warp the finger plates.

I wont get into who the marshal was here, this isnt a forum to start a personal battle. I am addressing how the rules can be so misinterpreted that a piece of PADDED STEEL ARMOR can be failed while goddamn hockey gloves are allowed(youi see a rigid surface touching the weapon on those to transfer any force?hell no. My gauntlets are just as padded and far more rigid). This particular marshal probably has it set in his head that he will fail all fingered gauntlets, ever.

He even asked me if I had a hocket glove I could use! What a great attempt at authenticity. (I had steel half gauntlets with a bymyhand 28'' aluminum round shield, a sword with a basket before I even put these on, he failed the half gauntlets, but allowed someone else to use a center grip heater with half gauntlets. WTF is that about?)

Sebastion, are you speaking from experience or supposition? I have USED the gauntlets EXTENSIVELY. Never a broken bone. Before I padded them my knuckle would get cracked by a rivet but not ever since I padded them with the mouse pad(which is MORE than sufficient padding, I wish it werent so rigid, and hope it will break in from using it a lot). Frankly, you can hit my gauntlets as hard as you can with any legal weapon and probably not even bruise my hand. It MIGHT warp the finger plates.

Well I thought I was speaking on experience, untill you mentioned the foam was rigid. To me mouse pad is the stuff that is about 1/8" to 3/16" thick. Kinda floppy stuff. I have never seen a mouse pad that could be called rigid, unless it had that plastic sheet glued to one side.

How did this marshal determine that the guantlets did not ground out?

And why did this person fail your demi?

They are required to tell you, you know. It is starting to sound like you and this marshal are in a pissing contest.

Anytime that type of thing happens, if you feel your gear is safe, the first words out of your mouth should be... "Thank you for your opinion, but I would like to appeal to the Marshal-in-Charge"

Sebastian wrote: ...Anytime that type of thing happens, if you feel your gear is safe, the first words out of your mouth should be... "Thank you for your opinion, but I would like to appeal to the Marshal-in-Charge"

Go to the top, if you can - your Kingdom Earl Marshal. If he says they're OK, ask him to put it in writing for you! The way those rules are written, your gauntlets are highly questionable, even though they probably offer much better protection than hockey gloves. Hopefully, your KEM will consider re-wording the rules to make this type of hand protection more clearly acceptable. If not, he may be willing to write a dispensation for you to carry.

Since your rules do allow for padding other than blue camping mats, the mousepad should not be a problem. I've had very good experience with 1/4" mousepad replacing thicker foam, and still getting excellent protection from it.

Thanks. I'll look into the KEM thing, thats sounds like a reasonable solution.

Check with the KEM and SEM. They've passed before.

iii. A gauntlet made of rigid plates, either lined with padding or closed cell foam, or designed to transfer potentially injurious impact to the surfaces being grasped.

What ambiguous about that? He's got it covered, as far as I can see (no expereince here, just going by what the rule actually says). His gauntlet is made of rigid plates, and it's padded. IN that case, transfer of force to the surface being grasped isn't required by that rule.

<shrug>

I guess this is why I'm nervous about ysing finger gaunts... I'm not too worried about protection, but I am worried about dropping some cash or spending lots of time on em and not getting to use them.

Strongbow
[/quote]

Show them to Artos then have him talk to the Local Marshal about them if he says they are OK. My local marshal was unhappy with my pole axe. (It was thought that clackers couldn't be used on two handed weapons) I told him that the KEM was already aware of it and said it was legal. If he liked he could contact a marshal from a neighboring group about it. After that he let it on the field with no argument. Marshals HATE paperwork. If it unusual or outside the norm of their experiance they will fail it. I don't like it and your right it makes no sense but thats the way it is. Sometimes you have to go the next level up. I myself have seen these gauntlets. A couple local guys have them and we tried them out WITHOUT padding. Without a good HARD blow stings some but that is all. No more worse than hockey gloves. If it had padding in them I sure it would have been A1 if they were reconstructed properly. I like thos gauntlets and have considered butying some and slightly modifing them to fit my hand a little better. Heck scale gauntlates would be legal if padded as they should be. All a hockey glove is is padding and I and many others fought in those for years and someof us still do.

freiman the minstrel wrote:[quote="Lord Magnus BlackIt really bugs me to get bounced on hand protection. I mean, breaking a finger sucks, but it isn't life threatening, and it doesn't even nessessarily put you out of fighting for the day.

Your hand swells up like a balloon, and hurts like hell, but you can still fight.

Sorry, Freiman, I will have to disagree with you there.

In 1982, I suffered a partial glove amputation of the ring finger on the right hand, breaking the middle, ring and pinkie fingers on the same hand, with a 1" compression split down the pinkie. One plastic surgeon, serious massive anesthetic, lots of antibiotics, some pretty dang impressive plastic surgery and I won't even tell you how many thousands of dollars later, and thankfully my fingers still work. They even saved the nailbed and you can't see that the finger is a little "off" unless you look real close. And what was this from? A bastard sword shot.

Life-threatening? No. But I was both out of fighting and seriously limited at work and school for about four months. I have a more or less permanent loss of sensation in the ring finger. Breaks through the knuckle and consequent infection can cause permanent disability in the joints of the hand, and it is frightenly easy to do.

Broinnfinn

....

Incidentally - the following is DIRECTLY from the Society Armor standards. Not Meridies, Society-wide.

5. Hand and Wrist Armor:
The outer surfaces of the hand and wrist of both arms must be covered by one or a combination of the following:

a. A metal basket hilt with enough bars or plates to prevent a blow from striking the fingers or the back of the hand. If a basket hilt is used, a vambrace or partial gauntlet shall cover the remaining portions of the hand and wrist.

b. A gauntlet made of rigid plates; either lined with padding or closed cell foam, or designed to transfer potentially injurious impact to the surfaces being grasped.

c. A gauntlet of heavy leather lined with closed cell foam or heavy padding. (Note: A hockey glove is considered to be the equivalent, but looks blatantly modern, and their use is discouraged.)

d. A shield with a shield basket or equivalent. (Note: a shield alone is NOT sufficient, since it covers only the back of the hand but not the fingers or thumb.)

e. Street hockey gloves are NOT equivalent. Street hockey gloves may be used in tandem with a demi-gauntlet and basket hilt. Street hockey gloves may also be used behind a shield in tandem with a shield basket.


The Meridian rules, except for the part about not having sharp edges to hurt you (Duh, I know, but you would be amazed what I see on inspection), are mainly a rehash of Society.

Broinnfinn

Drachus -


I just thought about it, I've kinda been out of my mind lately on meds for my back. If those are the same gauntlets that you had at fighter practice, and you haven't put proper padding in them, then thats why they were bounced. You don't have to have the metal wrapping all the way down to the weapon (like to transfer the blow) but you do still have to have good padding. I don't think those had enough padding the last time I saw them.

Did you add more padding like we discussed?

In Service,
Aidan

Aren't Lewis Moore/Knight's Armoury finger gauntlets designed with the plates resting on the rattan?

A friend of mine owns a set, and they seem to meet Rule 5b just fine, without modification.

Josh_Warren wrote:Sounds nasty, broin.

Did you suffer that injury as a result of trauma incurred in SCA combat?

Yep - like I said in my post - bastard sword shot to the hand. Got it in practice.

Broinnfinn

Just an observation here, but it's an observation based on my personal experience. A few years ago a few of us went to an SCA event back in Pittsburgh. One of our guys didnt wear much by way of body armor. In fact his idea of body armor was a chain mail baldric. Say what you want, with our group if that's what you wanna do, it's your funeral. We're big boys, ya know? Anyway, instead of telling our guy that his armor didnt pass they made him duct tape a piece of open cell foam to his sternum. No, you dont have to read that again, it's right. now, take also into consideration this marshall wasnt a fighter.
The message this sent was that SCA people dont give a FUCK if you're safe or protected. They like to see people jump through their hoops. I've seen this example repeated a number of times over the years so it isnt just my imagination. Sounds like this is the BS you ran across.

Templar Bob/De Tyre wrote:Aren't Lewis Moore/Knight's Armoury finger gauntlets designed with the plates resting on the rattan?

A friend of mine owns a set, and they seem to meet Rule 5b just fine, without modification.

Hi T-bob,

His old ones weren't. The new ones are. He told me that the new ones don't really need padding at all if they fit well. If they're too big, he suggests adding a little padding to avoid slap-type stinging injuries.

Strongbow

Aidan Cambel wrote:Drachus -


I just thought about it, I've kinda been out of my mind lately on meds for my back. If those are the same gauntlets that you had at fighter practice, and you haven't put proper padding in them, then thats why they were bounced. You don't have to have the metal wrapping all the way down to the weapon (like to transfer the blow) but you do still have to have good padding. I don't think those had enough padding the last time I saw them.

Did you add more padding like we discussed?

In Service,
Aidan

Yes. I cut up my old TN Volunteers mousepad I had in storage. Its about the thickest mouse pad I've seen. After adding padding I tried them out, one of the plates got warped when I hit somthing too hard with them, nothing a simple wack with a hammer wont fix, but my hand was undamaged. The only thing is the padding is so rigid its some effort to close my hand. I hope they break in some more, or my hand will just get stronger and I wont notice. Oh I scrubbed some of the rust off the gauntlets with sandpaper, next time you see them they should be all shiney again.

What pisses me off is I explained to the guy that they are padded. He then inspected them, pressed the fingers, seemed a little curious that they did indeed have padding hidden in them, then his eyes lit up before he explained the metal touching the weapon thing. I think he just wanted a reason to fail me. Guess I'll have to authorize some other time. I've been going to fighter practice for over 6 months now and I still havent had a chance to authorize anywhere because nobody with that authority lives around here

Sorry Dude, this sounds like an issue of if you were a somebody you could have gotten the gauntlets passed. They look fine to me. Find a different Marshall or bring them to the King (or Queen) and have them override the marshall's call.

Animal, we all know that Marshall's who have never fought rarely have a clue about what actually happens on the field (hey- I was even at Tuchuk camp one night and I didn't run into you dammit- maybe we'll meet next year;))

Alaric

"I still havent had a chance to authorize anywhere because nobody with that authority lives around here"


Oh we have a few that live in town they just haven't shown up in years.

Just like the majority of the fighters on our rolls.

The guantlets should have passes, if Lex's pass and mine pass and Aidan's(ect ect) pass then his should have passed.

I'm also no fan of broken fingers, if i thought they were a danger he would'nt be weareing them.

just a quick note as I have been the mic before. its a suck ass job.



as a marshal I have had to bounce reigning kings for not having there auth card.

as the mic a kem or sem needs to beable to show me how the questionable piece is safe. and meets the requirments. as being the marshal in charge even with the go a head from the king or someone else in athority its still my ass in the frying pan.
a note from the kem or sem or regional marshal can point me in the right direction. but whats to say its the same equipment or there has not been some modifcation scence the inspection.

thats why they have both the fighters number and the inspecting marshals number on the stickers at pennsic.

I have sceen people try and sneek all kinds of stuff past inspection point.
some will drag there knight along to try and persuade there oppinion over the mic.

it sucks but I have sceen it done more then once.

be patient ask for a second oppinion and if still not satisfied you can take the actions of the marshal in question to the next level.

Like hockey gloves are safer....

Vitus wrote:Like hockey gloves are safer....

They're not safer, they just make you look cooler !~!

From the people who brought you "The Road Warrior" and "Blood of Heros"

I think it might be a combination of mis-interpretation of the rules, innsufficient padding, and a personality comflict.

Marshalling in the Society is hard work. And to do it effectively you must read and know how to interperate the rules. Unfortunately some marshals have never interperated correctly or have become lax in keeping up with the current trends in armour.

However it is a two way street. Since Marshalling is ultimately all about interpretation, it is usually better to error on the side or caution. If the rule says padding is needed then perhaps cutting up a mouse pad and calling that padding is viewed by the marshal as more of an attempt to squeak by instead of comply with the rules.

I do agree with the above in that you could/should have appealed the decision to the MIC or KEM or CROWN if you didn't agree with it.

Marshalling is not the place for someone to "flex their muscle" infact is a place for someone to only act aggressively if absolutely necassary.

Animal:
It sounds like your "ducktape on the sternum" story is a perfect example of why I do NOT think non authorized fighters should be marshals. They may know the letter of the law but not the intent. From what you described as your friends armour I would have bounced him for other reasons, but ducktape padding on your sternum is weird. To my knowledge sternum protection is not required but incouraged society wide.

Did you have a copy of the rules with you? I suggest to all fighters that they carry a copy of the Society and Kingdom rules with them in their armor bag. I think it should be required for Marshals (actually for officers at all levels). The number of participants we have who don't know or understand the rules is, in my opinion, shocking until you consider how bad the marshallate, in my opinion and in general, is about communicating.

From what you have said it seems that your gauntlets should pass. The rule states that gauntlets have to meet ONE of TWO standards. You don't meet the metal to rattan standard, but you believe that you meet the padding standard. Show the marshal the rule and ask him to re-inspect the gauntlets. If they fail as gauntlets, ask him to inspect them as demi-gauntlets (for use with a center-grip shield, for instance). Then get the gauntlets re-inspected at a higher level at your first opportunity.

OK, here's my two cents.

First of all, I agree that any padded finger gauntlet should be at least as protective as any hockey glove. So if hockey gloves are legal, then padded finger gauntlets - even ones that do not touch the weapon, should be legal.

However, I would not trust my fingers to either one.

The only way I would trust a finger gauntlet for SCA combat is if each finger lame and gadling arced over each finger and contacted the weapon haft on either side of the finger. And even then I might be leary. For example, what if your finger somehow comes partially out from under a lame, and then the lame is struck, pinching your finger between the lame and the weapon haft? It's like a minature guillotine.

Personally, I would never use finger gauntlets without a basket hilt. My livelyhood revolves around using a computer. And fingers are the way we interface with computers. I can't afford to be without them.

Steve

Here's a link to Lewis Moore's current finger gaunt design:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1552&item=2276550953&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Looks like the lames wrap around the finger and touch the grip. the knuckle gadlings are undushed and are in cotant with the finger lames to effectively distribute impact.

Like I said, no expereince at all with these kinds of gaunts, but there ya go.

Strongbow

Drachus,
Speaking as a local group marshal here in Meridies, may I suggest you contact the KEM about it? His contact info is in the back of Popular Chivalry.
My personal understanding is that padding is required if the metal does not make contact with the rattan but without seeing them in personal I hesitate to make a judgement call. The marshal ruled as he thought best at the time I'm and sure.

I have seen a pair of the Lewis Moore finger gauntlets and without padding they would not be legal as Aidan said. Additionally the pair I saw would not fit me in a manner that was safe because of size.

Anyway, I suggest you contact the Kingdom Earl Marshal and ask for a second opinion.
Sincerely,
Brandr

There was nobody else marshalling at the event. There were only like 5-6 fighters present. So nobody to appeal the decision too.

The gauntlets are padded! I could punch a wall with them and not feel anything. Even while gripping a sword. There is no way these are not legal. I invite anyone to inspect them, use them, and tell me otherwise.

Murdock is gonna help me figure this out. If this continues with other events I'd sooner ditch rattan combat and just use wasters to do WMA/ LH stuff instead of spending money on hockey gloves.

Approach you KEM and get a written approval.

It will be a bit of a pain now, but it sounds like it will save you trouble latter.

Don't give up just because someone local may not understand the rules. (assuming your description of the gauntlets is correct they sound like they pass the society minimum).

Drachus -

Calm down. The thing is, these type of gauntlets have not been ok'ed for very long, and at the events that I have fought in mine, or Lex has fought in his, there was the KEM there. For YEARS the rule was - they didn't pass. Most people remember that, and err on the side of caution. I'm no longer a member of the KM boards, but I doubt there has been a mass communication to all of the marshal's and proper training on how to determine whats legal and whats not.

Keep in mind, marshals are ultimately responsible for safety on the field. If someone is injured, they are the ones that report it to the KEM. There is no intermediary. And there is LOTS of paperwork. And if its because the fighter was fighting in what ends up to be determined as faulty gear, the marshal of the field is the one responsible. He has to answer for it. He will most likely lose his ability to marshal, and could possibly even lose his right to fight for a period of time. This is a lot to put on the line for a piece of equipment that has been back and forth and you may not truly know where it stands now.

This was a small event, and I don't know who the marshal was, but chances are, he was erring on the side of caution. Thats his job. It was not a personal attack against you.

I wish I could help you get authorized, but there is nothing I can do. Heck I can't even armour up right now until my back gets better...

If you go to gatalop the last weekend of the month, I'm fairly certain you can authorize there.

In Service,
Aidan

Unless Jimmy has left the office Sir James is the current marshal of the shire..

http://www.net-connection.com/knights/james.htm

Is this the person who downchecked your stuff?