Mythbusters request made - arrows / bolts / armor
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Russ Mitchell
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Richard Blackmoore
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[quote="Sir Gaston"]Hey anybody know who killed Kennedy?
quote]
Recent studies show that John Kerry, Owen and the Tuchux were primarily responsible, though Dark Victory Armoury and the SCA BOD were involved in funding and cover up operations.
quote]
Recent studies show that John Kerry, Owen and the Tuchux were primarily responsible, though Dark Victory Armoury and the SCA BOD were involved in funding and cover up operations.
Is the SCA a better place for having you in it? If not, what are you doing there?
Russ,
Haven't you done some research into the timing and distance of a cavalry charge? I'm wondering how this fits in tactically, if one considers a sheaf of 24 the archer's "battle pack" of ammo.
Smythe says 1/3 of the arrows (8 of 24) should be flight arrows. He also gives ranges for flight arrows as 20 score (400 yards) up to 24 score yards (480). He says war arrows should travel 12 score (240 yards).
This would seem to suggest that an enemy cavalry formation would have to form up 500 yards away. Moving forward at a trot (8 mph?) the archer would need about 40-45 seconds to loose his flights before the cavalry closed to about 240 yards. "The Tactical Use of the Three Arms (1865)" suggests cavalry charges should begin from about 260 yards, steadily increasing speed (maneuvering gallop = 12mph?); else, the horses will be exhausted before or at impact. This would leave the archer another 16 "war" arrows to fire as the horses closed a similar distance at a greater speed, plus leaving a small reserve if a melee insued.
Sounds like a math word problem. Who was good at figuring out when the two trains collide?
Haven't you done some research into the timing and distance of a cavalry charge? I'm wondering how this fits in tactically, if one considers a sheaf of 24 the archer's "battle pack" of ammo.
Smythe says 1/3 of the arrows (8 of 24) should be flight arrows. He also gives ranges for flight arrows as 20 score (400 yards) up to 24 score yards (480). He says war arrows should travel 12 score (240 yards).
This would seem to suggest that an enemy cavalry formation would have to form up 500 yards away. Moving forward at a trot (8 mph?) the archer would need about 40-45 seconds to loose his flights before the cavalry closed to about 240 yards. "The Tactical Use of the Three Arms (1865)" suggests cavalry charges should begin from about 260 yards, steadily increasing speed (maneuvering gallop = 12mph?); else, the horses will be exhausted before or at impact. This would leave the archer another 16 "war" arrows to fire as the horses closed a similar distance at a greater speed, plus leaving a small reserve if a melee insued.
Sounds like a math word problem. Who was good at figuring out when the two trains collide?
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Russ Mitchell
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I didn't do the research: the gents at Historic Enterprises looked into their speed at the charge. (Horses are not toys, and I can't justify keeping one just for my research purposes). You might drop them a line. Otherwise, Chef may know.
The trick is, it depends, Ernst.
Are the archers behind a secure palisade, like the Ottoman archers at Nicopolis? The Mareschal's order to dismount and fight on foot rather than facing a coward's death from arrows suggests that some of what you're thinking may matter.
Are the cavalrymen stupid enough to charge a palisade? Well, in 1396, yes...
Are the archers stupid enough to stand behind a NON-SECURE palisade or on that kind of slope, knowing that they're dead as doorknobs should even a quarter of the charging contingent make it through their fire? (Imagine getting slammed by a horse at a rodeo. Now imagine the slamming parts are cased in hard metal. Makes the NFL look like tiddlywinks)
If I recall correctly, as I've slept many times since then, and the nature of my research went in a slightly different direction, the gents said a full-up charge would take about fifteen seconds. If you take the standard longbowman's rate of fire (12 per minute)... there's no WAY those archers are going to break a charge with only three arrows in the air, and the last one as hasty as it gets. Even the really good archers I know in Budapest only shoot an arrow a second when they're firing into a mass and don't have to aim, and my absolute best, with a lightweight bow, is 3 arrows in 8 seconds. If I were to practice more regularly (which ought to become an option soon, now that I've revamped the range in my back yard), I could get that up to a better speed... but you're still not looking at good odds.
Add to this, that flight arrows are pretty much designed solely for harassment or fire at unarmored figures. They're not going to have much in the way of momentum left at the end of their flight... especially western arrows, with their relatively large fletchings. The number of those harassing arrows that does anything meaningful is going to be very small.
So it's a word problem... but at least for me, the setup to the word problem is much more interesting than the math itself. I really feel for the SCA guys who have to craft some kind of coherent rules out of what is really a VERY complex set of questions...
The trick is, it depends, Ernst.
Are the archers behind a secure palisade, like the Ottoman archers at Nicopolis? The Mareschal's order to dismount and fight on foot rather than facing a coward's death from arrows suggests that some of what you're thinking may matter.
Are the cavalrymen stupid enough to charge a palisade? Well, in 1396, yes...
Are the archers stupid enough to stand behind a NON-SECURE palisade or on that kind of slope, knowing that they're dead as doorknobs should even a quarter of the charging contingent make it through their fire? (Imagine getting slammed by a horse at a rodeo. Now imagine the slamming parts are cased in hard metal. Makes the NFL look like tiddlywinks)
If I recall correctly, as I've slept many times since then, and the nature of my research went in a slightly different direction, the gents said a full-up charge would take about fifteen seconds. If you take the standard longbowman's rate of fire (12 per minute)... there's no WAY those archers are going to break a charge with only three arrows in the air, and the last one as hasty as it gets. Even the really good archers I know in Budapest only shoot an arrow a second when they're firing into a mass and don't have to aim, and my absolute best, with a lightweight bow, is 3 arrows in 8 seconds. If I were to practice more regularly (which ought to become an option soon, now that I've revamped the range in my back yard), I could get that up to a better speed... but you're still not looking at good odds.
Add to this, that flight arrows are pretty much designed solely for harassment or fire at unarmored figures. They're not going to have much in the way of momentum left at the end of their flight... especially western arrows, with their relatively large fletchings. The number of those harassing arrows that does anything meaningful is going to be very small.
So it's a word problem... but at least for me, the setup to the word problem is much more interesting than the math itself. I really feel for the SCA guys who have to craft some kind of coherent rules out of what is really a VERY complex set of questions...