Martial Art vs Martial Sport

[St. George]

Sure your equations are correct, but balance, and footwork, and reaction to blows based on how "hard" someone swings (whether they are swinging or being struck) plays a large role in how the game si played.

"Controlled" blows generally does not mean "full force" while "full force" does not mean "wild."

I think we are in a terminiology disagreement.

I think most steel fighters don't swing at full force, or anything close, controlled or not. I think they do what most people call half speed.

Alaric

[Vitus von Atzinger]

I am trying to explain that in the Middle Ages, fighting with arms of peace in armour had two primary goals- to prove your skill with weapons and to prove that you were willing to get hit.
In our situation, there are certain techniques we would have to consider Outrance, because they may injure you to such an extent that the type of injury you would recieve would interfere with your work, and your ability to pay the bills and feed your kids. Those who seek after that next level of combat should form another group, because most people are not willing to take the risks just to prove that they are so much tougher *still*. All SCA combatants are tough bastards- most people think we are crazy.
The SCA already offers basically what most deeds of arms between fully-armoured combatants offered in the Middle Ages- the opportunity to look like a fighting noble, the opportunity to show skill with weapons that were used by the nobility, and the opportunity to take a beating or give a beating without worrying about serious injury or death.
As far as what opportunities for spiritual growth SCA combat offers or whatever...that is up to many other aspects of our Game. I have spoken of those other aspects til I am blue in the face- see the last 10,000 of my posts.

[Saint-Sever]

It is absolutely true that the numerous bruises, occasional brown-outs, rare broken bones, cracked teeth and gallons of sweat that has poured out of me in tourney with weapons of peace would be considered very knightly exercise by the knights of the Middle Ages. If you examine the risks and the types of injuries that were common in every other type of combat *other than Outrance encounters*, you will see that SCA combat is indeed medieval chivalric sport/art. It is a martial art because it teaches you to HIT people really hard with weapons, while teaching you how to avoid being hit. It is sport because it creates the type of bash, crash and dash that medieval nobles expected in their own tournament encounters....done to display skill and the willingness to be bashed in the spirit of good fun. Very rough fun.
Outrance encounters were fights where other -far more dangerous- techniques were expected. These are the types of techniques that Bob Charron can teach you. These are the types of techniques that the other WMA groups are learning about. However, for most deeds of arms, behourds and foot combat in the lists, people expected to be hit hard because they were interested in showing a willingness to be hit hard, to recieve those huge bruises, risk having broken bones and the other things that happened when two fully armoured people wailed away at each other in encounters that were understand by all involved to be for the fun of it, or to prove that they were not afraid of those risks that the average person would run like hell from. That is different than a judicial duel to the death, or a combat where it is agreed there would be no-holds-barred. These occasional encounters where a no-holds-barred situation was agreed upon- they made BIG news. They were like mini battles. People died. In Plaisance fights people died by accident, and it was always looked upon as a sad thing, because *getting killed wasn't the point- proving you were skilled and tough WAS the point*.
Would the average person -even the average "martial arts" practitioner, be interested in the types of beatings we give each other? Hell no. SCA combat is very similar in that it is looking to create the same limits that tourney combat was seeking to create. This is why jousting with sharp lances is always mentioned- because people jousted with rebated lances all the time--- for fun and to prove they were skilled and tough.

Damn, that was concise.

What he said, with knobs on.

Michael

[Duncanthemonster]

I'll take one too...
with brass trim please.



Well Said, as always, Sir Vitus.
Well Said.

[Gaston de Vieuxchamps]

This thread really went downhill

If all we did was training to mock-beat each other, it felt like sport. If we stopped and talked philosophy, chivalry, zen whatever, THAT is when it crosses over into Martial Art.

That's pretty much exactly what I was trying to say a few dozen posts ago. Why does this thread about sport vs art seem to want to turn into realistic vs non-realistic?

UFC is a sport, but it's pretty realistic. Aikido is an art, but it's pretty abstract. Boxing is a sport that's highly stylized, Juijitsu (usually) is an art but it's an aweful; lot like real fighting. One has nothing to do with the other.

Since this has degenerated into a dick swinging contest (featuring some prominent dicks ), I'll throw in a story of my own.

A few years ago I was just starting to get into the new "fectbook movement" and was browsing www.thehaca.com quite a bit. The subject came up at Gulf Wars and Duke Anton said, "Oh, those guys" I got very excited for some info since all I knew about was from the website, I asked all at once if he knew anything more, if he had ever met them in person, if he thought they were full of it, was it worth the effort, did they have a clue?

He answered all my questions with one short sentence, "Worst ass kicking I ever got!" I thought he might be kidding at first but he gave me a very serious look.

Gaston

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Ass kicking? They beat him black and blue? They humiliated him with technique? Without further context, I can't understand what he was truly getting at.

[Hentai Guy]

Anything where the outcome is death.
The forms of fighting, whereever they come from, where ment to damage people.

I disagree entirely...I haven't read all the posts, so I don't know if my points have already been brought up...regardless, I want to say them myself so I can at least pretend I'm being original and dynamic

First of all, if you want to break it down to utter technicality...I offer you Miriam Webster definition of the term "Martial Art":

Main Entry: martial art
Function: noun
: any of several arts of combat and self-defense (as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport


So, by techincal definition, sport martial arts are still applicable as martial arts.

Lets now break it down by word...

Main Entry: mar·tial
Pronunciation: 'mär-sh&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin martialis of Mars, from Mart-, Mars
1 : of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior
2 : relating to an army or to military life
3 : experienced in or inclined to war : WARLIKE
- mar·tial·ly /-sh&-lE/ adverb

Of or relating to war or warriors...note that.

Main Entry: art
Pronunciation: 'ärt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin art-, ars -- more at ARM
1 : skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the art of making friends>
2 a : a branch of learning: (1) : one of the humanities (2) plural : LIBERAL ARTS b archaic : LEARNING, SCHOLARSHIP
3 : an occupation requiring knowledge or skill <the art of organ building>
4 a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced b (1) : FINE ARTS (2) : one of the fine arts (3) : a graphic art
5 a archaic : a skillful plan b : the quality or state of being artful
6 : decorative or illustrative elements in printed matter

Skill acquired from experience, study or observation...a branch of learning...creative use of skill...the quality or state of being artful...

Thus far killing, maiming, hurting, or even actual fighting are not a requirement...and are, at most, implied only by the conotations of the word warrior (and even that word can simply mean "one who is engaged is some form of struggle or conflict," which can broadly be applied to just about everyone on the face of the planet and beyond).

Martial Arts are not simply a way to wage war, or a way to dissuade attack...they are tools for which one can build a better self. We are all warriors, though the weapons we wield are vast and diverse. Some wield the sword or the gun, some wield the pen or the chalk board or the paint brush, many wield words and thoughts and ideas...we are all in a struggle, with others or with ourselves, and thus are all warriors. It matters little if not even a single punch is thrown.

[Reinhard]

I thought I posted a good point, but it got lost in the flame out.

Here's the crayon version:

SCA stick fighting has rules that make it safe, (still martial art)

Techniques were developed that utilised the artificial nature of the rules (now martial sport)

[Duncanthemonster]

I thought I posted a good point, but it got lost in the flame out.

Here's the crayon version:

SCA stick fighting has rules that make it safe, (still martial art)

Techniques were developed that utilised the artificial nature of the rules (now martial sport)

Very true Reinhard....
This is where my POV has kinda shifted to because of this thread.
Yeah...ya heard me right...I have rethought my position, and shifted it somewhat based upon disourse here on this thread.
Holy crap....I CAN READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gaston de Vieuxchamps]

Ass kicking? They beat him black and blue? They humiliated him with technique? Without further context, I can't understand what he was truly getting at.

I can only say what I was told, any additional information would have to come from him.

Gaston

PS-Would "humiliated him with technique" vs "black and blue" really make any difference in your mind in the context of the current discussion?

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Yes.