Martial Art vs Martial Sport

[dukelogan]

i did read what you said. i commented on the fact that not having to block your lower leg made you feel lazy. im suggesting that blocking your lower leg should be the least of your worries. fighting good sca fighters would convince you of that. for example, i will never target your lower legs. i probably will not target your legs at all. hell, just for grins i will target only one side of your helm. lets go further, lets put three little pieces of duct tape on your helm, you chose their location. and i only target those. do you doubt that i could hit them, often, hard, often, etc.? nobody would. thats what i am talking about. it is that kind of fight that drives the game upward.

i also love the game of the new guy all wide eyed and ramped up. the guy that thinks that beating the crap out of my shield is the way to valhalla. but that is for the new fighter not one that has dealt with his body arguing with him that its time to get up and go to work.

animal i never suggested insult, that was a guilty conscience on your part and well deserved, i only suggested that you strive to fight better fighters. i assume that is your wish or so it seems by your own words. of course, i find your words to be confusing at times. regardless of that you seem to trust in, or behold, the same spirit of the warrior elite that i strive for. as such, we are on the same path regardless of which of us sucks worse at communication. well, for the moment that is.

regards
logan

Instead of insulting the SCA fighters that I fight with, go back and reread what I said logan. I said that not having to block my lower legs makes me feel lazy. The SCA fighters that I deal with around here tend to be very good fighters. With skills and honor to match. Even the newer ones seem to be on track for the most part. It's a good time.

[Animal]

You find my words confusing? Sound them out. It might help. Look, your post came off as offensive. Thats the response it got. I'd think you'd be used to that by now.
Three pieces of duct tape huh. Yah, I doubt it.
Thing is logan, you might BE gods gift to rattan fighting but when you type you come off like an asshole. Only YOU can change that. You might care, you might not. But eventually you'll hear the laughter.
Just sayin.

[dukelogan]

yes, i do find your words confusing. at times you sound like a reasonable adult interested in many of the same things i am. other times you spout out some little tough guys rebel against all odds bullshit. you wear two masks and i loathe that. if you wish to be a belligerent bully please feel free. but if you wish to be the other then kill him off and carry on. i would rather deal with one and not tolerate the other.

the three pieces of duct tape, dont doubt it. it could be one and i would still have no issue. as much as you might hate it i am very good at this game so deal with it. just sayin........

and, i am in no way a god at this rattan fighting. that title is von dresdans and i hate him for it. if i could be that good i would be closer to my goal, but im not. so, i will just hate him.

by the way, you decided i came across as an asshole. i do not try to sugar coat things, nor, will i ever try to be pc. if you think you can offer some example in which i have not spoken my mind and spoken it clearly please indicate it.

but the laughter i will never hear. those that offer it offer it only in the darkness much like cockroaches huddle by scat for their midnight snacks. laughter is the cry of jackals. if someone has argument with my words they have but three choices. they may counter them in direct and intended anger. they may bring that rage and all the emotion that they can. they may also act as mature persons and bring their disagreements to light with intelligent discourse. then we may debate.

they may choose to ignore and not comment on my words. as such they have no position to offer and should remain in silence.

they also may choose to listen and think. think about what the words mean and not decide for themselves what they wish the words to mean. you yourself said "look, your post came off as offensive". that is really sad as there was no emotion in my post. there was no attack. yet you allowed your emotions to become offended. i dont get offended so i really dont know what that is like. i can recognize it but i can not understand it. i only hope that you do.

regards
logan

You find my words confusing? Sound them out. It might help. Look, your post came off as offensive. Thats the response it got. I'd think you'd be used to that by now.
Three pieces of duct tape huh. Yah, I doubt it.
Thing is logan, you might BE gods gift to rattan fighting but when you type you come off like an asshole. Only YOU can change that. You might care, you might not. But eventually you'll hear the laughter.
Just sayin.

[Animal]

logan you may or may not be good at this game. I personally could give a fuck. I honestly have nothing but contempt for you at this point and have finally reached the point where I just dont hear you now. You fart with your mouth logan, and the laughter you dont hear echoes about you from everyone I talk to about you. See, I asked around. I really tried to get a sense, maybe it was the fact that there is no inflection on line and mis-understandings happen easily. But no, you're an asshole. Ask around. I did.
I'm done. You arent worth typing at, talking to, thinking about.
Whatever.

[dukelogan]

thanks for supporting what i said.

if you ever wish to engage in direct, intelligent, and candid discourse, please let me know. i would like to. until then you are free to feel however you wish. or, if you ever wish to actually contend anything i have ever said, again, please do so. to date you have not. im cool with that and im cool with any debate that may come from something i have opined.

i really couldnt care less about a few peoples opinions they have shared with you. really, im not in this world to play hero nor to be everyones friend. again, deal with what i have said and what i have argued. you have never done that. public opinion is so juvenile that i would think it beneath you.

you asked around...... holy hell thats funny. i havent asked around about you but the consensus is always the same. big mouthed, loud mouthed, bully boy, wanna be bad ass, blah blah blah. that is all i have ever heard about you. funny thing is, i am the only one in that circle that defends you time and time again.

look, i only speak my mind. i do not hide things, i do not try to sugarcoat them up for anyone. now if you have some argument that is mature and reasoned and that is directly relevant to something i have ever said i would love to hear it. i know you wont but i thought i would ask.

by the way animal, welcome to the sca. in the sca you will have to do as i suggest as that is the nature of the game. its the sca, not the tuchux. if you dont like that go pound sand. it matters not to me. if you ever get around to getting me some tuchux event info i will show up and i will be happy to teach you how a guest acts at his hosts event. meanwhile, deal with the reality that this is my game, not yours. if you would ever attempt to deal with something i have said directly i would be happy to discuss it. i actually believe that you could change my mind on a few things as i sense a warrior elite spirit in you. but until you drop the tough guy bullshit it will be hard for me to learn from you.

by the way, if email is hard to deal with (and i know it is) try calling me at home. 704-532-1566

logan

logan you may or may not be good at this game. I personally could give a fuck. I honestly have nothing but contempt for you at this point and have finally reached the point where I just dont hear you now. You fart with your mouth logan, and the laughter you dont hear echoes about you from everyone I talk to about you. See, I asked around. I really tried to get a sense, maybe it was the fact that there is no inflection on line and mis-understandings happen easily. But no, you're an asshole. Ask around. I did.
I'm done. You arent worth typing at, talking to, thinking about.
Whatever.

[Rod Walker]

the metal guys all pull shots and i cant get behind that. i understand the reason (fuck getting killed) for it but it is all play fighting at that point. so its not my cup of bruises.

regards
logan

Is this some sort of mantra that those in the SCA have to chant until they belive it above all else?

If we fight in full plate harnesses (not some form of scadian sports armour) have full body targetting, allow grappeling and half swording and strike hard and fast, how is that play fighting and apparently something less compared to what the SCA do?

Besides, Super Duke or not, you all still fight exclusively on foot. Peasants

It's not as if, like true knights, you test yourselves in the ultimate test of skill and courage, the joust. No blocking, no dodging. Just sit up straight and take the hit.

[dukelogan]

is this an image from some full contact jousting thing i got not long ago? some over commercialized thing with some women that tilted and the crowd counted the turns? i lost the damned info i had on it and i watched a bunch of video. the jousting looked bad ass. i was amped up and impressed. anyone that has that url please post is so i can capture the video again.

if anyone doubts that mostly full contact jousting can happen, does happen, and is cool as hell, please drop me a line. the stuff i saw was very cool

by the way there fella, the picture you posted shows no metal combat, nor does it show any blunt weapons combat. i think i have the video that picture came from and i would be happy to stand on the ground with my weapon (steel or grass) in hand. knights did it in the sca period and i would be happy to in real life.



logan

the metal guys all pull shots and i cant get behind that. i understand the reason (fuck getting killed) for it but it is all play fighting at that point. so its not my cup of bruises.

regards
logan

Is this some sort of mantra that those in the SCA have to chant until they belive it above all else?

If we fight in full plate harnesses (not some form of scadian sports armour) have full body targetting, allow grappeling and half swording and strike hard and fast, how is that play fighting and apparently something less compared to what the SCA do?

Besides, Super Duke or not, you all still fight exclusively on foot. Peasants

It's not as if, like true knights, you test yourselves in the ultimate test of skill and courage, the joust. No blocking, no dodging. Just sit up straight and take the hit.

[Rod Walker]

That's me in the black harness coming towards the camera and that is Ripper Moore heading away. I don't remember htting the ground. I came too 15 minutes later sitting on my horse. Not Good!!!

that mostly full contact jousting

Mostly full contact!!!! I can't see how it could possibly get any "more' full contact than that!!! It is a solid piece of 1 1/4 inch thick timber.

by the way there fella, the picture you posted shows no metal combat, nor does it show any blunt weapons combat.

Of course not, it's a joust.

i would be happy to stand on the ground with my weapon (steel or grass)

I met a chap who thought that way once. Was 100% sure that he could stand his ground as I charged in and he could easily take me or the horse out. He armoured up and used a waster and stood ready and I started my charge. He didn't realise that the sight of a charging horse was so frightening to start with. He also didn't realise that a well trained horse, even at the charge, can side step so quickly. He made his attack, missed and my strike (also with a waster), knocked him cold.

Ive been doing this for 15 years. Trust me, I can take you

[earnest carruthers]

alaric
"Sounds like your system is a lot of BS."

Firstly it is not 'my' system, I was questioning your statement that you guys would beat such and such guys given certain conditions. And like it or not some of those compromises means that the systems can only be compared when the set up is pretty much the same which kind of makes a realistic comparison a bit watered down.

"Right now it feels like you are setting up straw man defenses so that a cross cultural evaluation can't occur. "

If rattan fighting is full force then obviously steel fighting can rarely be unless both opponents are fully harnessed that is a key point surely when making 'comparisons'. The converse of that of course is the steel guys do the same as you and hit full force and then suddenly it all changes the other way, which I guess would not be desirable nor be beneficial.

"The only "real" part I am suggesting getting rid of death. If a sword thrust to the face results in someone dying, then lets not use it. "

I used the inverted commas to denote a context not an advocation of doing killing blows and noted that whilst SCA does seem to allow thrusts to the face vast majority of steel fighting in UK does not, another aspect which would need to be addressed as the steel fighters would more often than not be unprepared to defend against a blow they do not receive.

How would you address the issues of:
rattan full contact vs steel users who don't do full contact (majority)
no leg hits
metal users don't do face thrusts or much thrusting at all
speed of metal vs rattan/wood whatever is much slower (again out of necessity)
And if doing say 15th century England or France you can pretty much rule out using shields.

The nature of the style is dictated by the weapon used in this case, otherwise why is rattan full contact and steel not?

A heck of a lot of compromises wouldn't you agree?

I am trying to point out the that your call on beating such and such is based on levelling a playing field to the point where both are fighting the same way for the reasons of safety and gauging success/outcome so a true comparison is extremely difficult to prove. You would win purely because the limits on your system are not the same as in the other.

Secondly you seem to think I am saying one is better than the other that is your interpretation and unfortunately far from reality, if you read back I was questioning your initial argument not making a judgement one way or the other in fact, a key phrase I used pretty much said earlier on was that it sounded like reenactment fighting with steel weapons was much the same in principle as the SCA way ie having clearly defined target areas and shots etc, shame if you felt that was judgemental.

Hence my scepticism as I have been in a similar situation and am now starting WMA and see that there are vast differences of approach even if the ends are the same, ie to make a palpable hit on a target area. If I made a feint at a typical reenactor metal fighter he may or may not react safely to either block or avoid etc even though the end hit may well be safe and not even anywhere near full contact which is a minor point as most UK metal fighting is far from full contact as that is limited to set pieces, something I do not actually practice nor want to.

I am surprised at the defensiveness that this discussion has triggered, there really is no need considering it is about comparisons and I don't recall anyone actually slagging off the SCA fighting style or system, but if people make claims then it is fair to be challenged otherwise why post them?


You really want to compare cross cultures stand in a field with as much armour as you like regardless of fighting systems and accept that say a good hit or numbers of to the chest or head is a telling hit/wound whatever or leg or arm and then charge across an open field to archers who only have bows and blunt arrows. Now that would be interesting and quick fight wouldn't it?



"you decide to grapple and, well welcome to my backyard. "

meaning what precisely?

[dukelogan]

i would be happy to stand on the ground with my weapon (steel or grass)

I met a chap who thought that way once. Was 100% sure that he could stand his ground as I charged in and he could easily take me or the horse out. He armoured up and used a waster and stood ready and I started my charge. He didn't realise that the sight of a charging horse was so frightening to start with. He also didn't realise that a well trained horse, even at the charge, can side step so quickly. He made his attack, missed and my strike (also with a waster), knocked him cold.

Ive been doing this for 15 years. Trust me, I can take you

yeah i didnt take into account the charging horse and the effect it might have on the person being charged. that very well might change things.

that is, i believe, the same video i saw since i remember that name "ripper moore". very impressive video.

regards
logan

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Great story, Rod!

Animal...I know it sounds like bullshit, but Logan has indeed said good things about you in places you would never, ever believe. There are many other things I wish I could say here, but they would not be believed or my motives would be suspected.
However, one thing does ring true to me, and that is this- at SCA events only those people who are -in spirit- in the SCA should be participating. I can't understand why anyone would want to be an outsider/outlaw type and then try to participate in a combat system where victory is awarded as a token of respect and affection by the opponent. It escapes me, and I will avoid all events where I detect the poisoning of the basic value system that we use to define worthiness and honor.

[Animal]

Hi Vitus. let me see if I can word this in a manner that will clarify this for you since it seems your question is genuine.
**keep in mind I'm not speaking in an official capacity, just my own opinions***
Armoured rattan combat is a common denominator between the SCA and Tuchux. One can approach armoured rattan combat from 360 degrees, depending on your own experiences and personal tastes. Using the SCA as an example, you have hundreds of years of cultures and people to draw from . This not only gives you a multitude of inspirations but a multitude of pitfalls as well. You're gonna have people that like this culture but not that, this armor but not that. This weapons style, and not that. Personal taste and experience will dictate a lot of that, but you also will get a prevailing attitude sometuimes that some people just go with wihtout thought. When such a group finds itself the dominant group in a certain SCA region, attitudes become customs and eventually customs become laws. That doesnt mean they're right. Or necessary. It also tends to lead to the exclusion of those that dont happen to espouse those same views and tastes. So the groups that love Viking culture, or Celtic culture, or Persian, Moorish, etc. etc. get pushed to the side. Yet these people have the same passion for their portrayal and their research as those that follow alopng the groove of the dominant group. More in fact, because it's NOT the popular thing. Yet you see entire households like Yamakamanari, the Japanese, the Silver Horde, Mongol, and lots of other groups that are all having a great time doing their thing. See, they're in the spirit of the SCA. Just not YOUR spirit of the SCA. And when I see you and others like you saying what essentially boils down to:"Why dont you want to be like us?" I just think of those groups, some of whom I have personal experience of and found them to be some good damn people, having a good time being themselves and enjoying their hobby and wonder why you arent more like them.
Speaking from my perspective as a Tuchuk, I started out many years ago going to as many SCA events as Tuchux events. More fighter practices, because y'all were the only ones organized. I made great lifelong friends among the SCA. People I looked up to. Nissan for example. His household, Clovensheild treated me as a friend when I was a drunked stupid assed immature child. They gave me credit for the potential I had and waited till I grew into it. I love those guys. They exemplify the spirit of the SCA. One aspect of it. Apparently not YOUR aspect of it.
You have no personal experience of me so I'm not taking your inquirey personally. But I will speak plainly to you and tell you for certain that I am a man of honor and I conduct myself as such. I live by the codes I was taught as a warrior and I teach them to those that come behind me. Among my people I am every bit as much of a knight as you are to yours, with all the responsibilities that entails. I try very hard to live that hononr as I'm sure you do. However it's not the same as yours. Similar but not the same. It's the same game, just played from a different perspective. Every bit as worthy as yours, just not, apparently, to your tastes.
It's a wide world, and rather than seeking to narrow it to my circumstances I'd rather broaden them to meet each challenge as it arises to the very best of my ability. This doesnt mean going out of my way to be some sort of 'spoiler' for your game. If that were the case I wouldnt have been personally asked to come to SCA workouts before Pennsic last year to help authorize new SCA fighters. In the spirit of this game we all play I went and did my best to teach them, then help them authorize safely so that we could all go to the war and play.
Your misconceptions are doing you disservice so I've tried honestly to alleviate some of them for you.Hope it helped.

[St. George]

I think there is a vital miscommunication going on here. I am going to seriously dork out in the analogy I am about to use, but please bare with me.

The rules/conception of the SCA can be seen one of two ways:

1) Some people see the SCA a basic ruleset that anyone can take and use as an overlay for any basic recreation group that uses stick fighting- this can be from European, to Japanese, to fantasy lands. The basic rules and support apparatus of the SCA provide for social structure, enjoyable combat, and all the other things needed to run this type of group. For these people, the SCA is a melting pot of cultures and groups, where varying traditions all intermingle and coexist. For these people, they cannot understand why certain groups would want to exclude them, or why they might get looked upon poorly for not playing the part of a Medieval European warrior.

2) For others, the SCA is a ruleset for a Medieval European recreation group which gets corrupted/bastardized to fit other recreation groups needs often to the detriment of what the SCA is trying to accomplish. This can also mean that other groups take the rules and run with them (or create a ruleset of their own that is similar yet compatibile with the SCA). These people cannot understand for the life of them, why anyone would come into the SCA with it's clear set of rules and time period, and do anything outside of it. They also cannot understand why such behaviors or groups are tolerated within the SCA, or why people would come into this "football game" looking to play "basketball."

Honor, fighting abilities/limitations of systems, and other stuff aside (I don't think anyone is questioning them) the issue with the SCA is one of overacceptance, and lack of self policing. Personally, I think people are too willing to let crap slide (crappy armor, crappy attitudes, crappy portrayals of medieval european stuff), and not ballsy enough to just walk up to someone and say, "your armor looks like shit, you can't fight today." Which I will agree is a crappy thing to do, but someone has to draw a line somewhere, someday I think. I also can't say that I am an angel- I went through a period of black leather armor, looking like a road warrior extra, largely because someone who I respected had convinced me that it was ok, and that it was appropriate for the SCA. It wasn't appropriate, and he was wrong.

I hope this helps explain some stuff.

Alaric

[earnest carruthers]

Doesn't answer my question, shame as it was getting interesting I will leave you to your SCA 'thing' as that is more important that any external 'thing' comparison or not.

ciao.

[St. George]

"Sounds like your system is a lot of BS."

Firstly it is not 'my' system, I was questioning your statement that you guys would beat such and such guys given certain conditions. And like it or not some of those compromises means that the systems can only be compared when the set up is pretty much the same which kind of makes a realistic comparison a bit watered down.

I am talking about whatever system it is that you use, and I was saying that my guys would beat your guys using your conditions. I only recommended compromises to make everyone happy.

"Right now it feels like you are setting up straw man defenses so that a cross cultural evaluation can't occur. "

If rattan fighting is full force then obviously steel fighting can rarely be unless both opponents are fully harnessed that is a key point surely when making 'comparisons'. The converse of that of course is the steel guys do the same as you and hit full force and then suddenly it all changes the other way, which I guess would not be desirable nor be beneficial.

Your statement does not make sense to me, please extrapolate. Either what you do is or is not full force. Is it? Or do you have to pull shots. Further, from the sound of several of your later comments, it seems that you all limit yourselves to certain types of shots that might or might not be acceptable, i.e. face thrusts.

"The only "real" part I am suggesting getting rid of death. If a sword thrust to the face results in someone dying, then lets not use it. "

I used the inverted commas to denote a context not an advocation of doing killing blows and noted that whilst SCA does seem to allow thrusts to the face vast majority of steel fighting in UK does not, another aspect which would need to be addressed as the steel fighters would more often than not be unprepared to defend against a blow they do not receive.

If you all do not allow face thrusts, then how can you even remotely say that you are doing something that even approaches "real combat?" Sounds like you are back tracking. I am sure that "my guys" would be happy to not face thrusts, so your boys wouldn't have to worry about it.

How would you address the issues of:
rattan full contact vs steel users who don't do full contact (majority)
no leg hits
metal users don't do face thrusts or much thrusting at all
speed of metal vs rattan/wood whatever is much slower (again out of necessity)
And if doing say 15th century England or France you can pretty much rule out using shields.

I would say that the steel users who don't do full contact are playing a game even more akin to dancing than fighting. I would say that trying to do the moves in a dance book at half speed or soemthing is fun, but it isn't dancing, or in this case fighting, for real. It also is no better a recreation of the "real thing" than SCA fighting is. It would be like pitting a bunch of guys who really knew kung fu against a bunch of Tai Chi guys...

Who doesn't do leg hits? The SCA doesn't do lower leg hits, but I am sure could be convinced to not throw any at all, and they wouldn't mind.

I would say that metal users who don't do thrusts are not really fighting for real. I would also say that they might be re-creating something akin to blunted and rebated sword fighting, but I would have to see how they perform. Again, I am sure that SCA practioners could easily adapt to a "non-thrusting" environment.

Are you saying metal is slower than wood? Or the reverse? or that metal guys choose to throw shots slower? I am confused, please clarify.

Pick the period, I don't think guys in the SCA mind fighting without shields. I prefer shields work, but am very comfortable with a bastard or long sword in my hands, as are most of my friends.

The nature of the style is dictated by the weapon used in this case, otherwise why is rattan full contact and steel not?

Because steel can easily kill people. I guess what you have to ask is why do you use steel and not something else? What is more important the look of the weapon or its ability to be safe and perform like a real weapon? I prefer the latter. It makes fighting more fun for me to be able to swing at full speed, and not have to pull shots all the time.

A heck of a lot of compromises wouldn't you agree?

No, I don't. At first I thought that you all might be the ones compromising your positions/style, but it appears that the SCA would be giving up more in order to play with your guys. I don't think that we would mind.

I am trying to point out the that your call on beating such and such is based on levelling a playing field to the point where both are fighting the same way for the reasons of safety and gauging success/outcome so a true comparison is extremely difficult to prove. You would win purely because the limits on your system are not the same as in the other.

it sounds like the system you practice is the one with the limits. I am sure that the SCA could add those inhibitors onto their system to make an even playing field.

Secondly you seem to think I am saying one is better than the other that is your interpretation and unfortunately far from reality, if you read back I was questioning your initial argument not making a judgement one way or the other in fact, a key phrase I used pretty much said earlier on was that it sounded like reenactment fighting with steel weapons was much the same in principle as the SCA way ie having clearly defined target areas and shots etc, shame if you felt that was judgemental.

I don't recall that- sorry I'll have to go back and re-read all the posts.

Hence my scepticism as I have been in a similar situation and am now starting WMA and see that there are vast differences of approach even if the ends are the same, ie to make a palpable hit on a target area. If I made a feint at a typical reenactor metal fighter he may or may not react safely to either block or avoid etc even though the end hit may well be safe and not even anywhere near full contact which is a minor point as most UK metal fighting is far from full contact as that is limited to set pieces, something I do not actually practice nor want to.

From some of your earlier comments, you and the style you practice got lumped in with many of the practioners of European martial arts, which from this latest series of comments, it does not sound like you are a practioner of.

You really want to compare cross cultures stand in a field with as much armour as you like regardless of fighting systems and accept that say a good hit or numbers of to the chest or head is a telling hit/wound whatever or leg or arm and then charge across an open field to archers who only have bows and blunt arrows. Now that would be interesting and quick fight wouldn't it?

No it wouldn't. It would be as dull and pointless as Combat Archery makes most of the battles it is made a part of in the SCA. It wouldnt' really prove anything either other than x number of archers would be able to rain down y number of arrows on one guy in a certain amount of time. Ever seen the movie HERO? It wouldn't prove anything that happened in reality.

"you decide to grapple and, well welcome to my backyard. "

meaning what precisely?

Meaning that some practioners of Western Martial Arts grapple, and he was welcoming them to try it, because he is an expert grappler, and isn't worried about it. Many Western Martial Arts practioners feel that the non-grappling aspect of SCA combat makes it a poor recreation and unrealistic martial art. Many SCA practioners find that the added element of grappling only takes a few minutes to add into your sense awareness and repertoire of thigns to do- epecially when you are useed to grappling in another martial art form.

Alaric

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Well presented. Many thanks.

[Flosi]

Ok, I am going to give my two pennies worth about this.

I think that, from what I have seen so far, the comparison between steel work and SCA fighting is an invalid one. The reason for this is one of the contexts.

As far as I understand SCA events are open to the SCA and are not public displays, meaning that all combat done there is done with the primary motivation of getting the good strike and winning the bout. When someone gets skilled they can make it look good, but to a most newbies that would be a secondary consideration over winning.

Re-enactment is more based around the public display and making it look good for the crowd. Showmanship and safety are tought first, the winning fights comes in later. A lot of blows are measured by lethal character rather than force, and if it looks like it would have done a lot of damage you should react accordingly. It is as much as form of acting as a combat technique. Certainly there are groups and fighters that like to take it to another level, but at any events the goal is the same. In reference to this you can see a lot of re-enactors are also registered as film extras and the like.

This is a very over simplified view of it of course, and I am sure that many re-enactors could hold their own in SCA combat in the same manner that many SCA members could do well in re-enactment. WMA is not something I can comment on as I have no experience, in case anyone is wondering about my ommision.



As far as the original topic goes, I beleive SCA falls under the catagory of a martial sport, as it was created specifically with intentions to be used as a sport and the training is based on striking to score rather than learning weak points, etc. I believe re-enactment can come under many headings depending on the group, ranging from martial art to those that try to demonstrate historical techniques at full contact in full armour, through being a martial sport almost to the stage of being amature dramatics. WMA, focusing on the historic uses of the sword as a weapon and how to do damage with it, is a martial art.

[Kel Rekuta]

Any good practioner of any martial art/sport can defeat someone who is only mediocre at their chosen form, as there is no holy grail of martial arts (other than Shinanju).

Alaric

That is the best comment I've read in this thread. I agree very strongly.
The art of Sinanju is the "true" martial art - all others are mere shadows.

FWIW, I couldn't care less whether SCA heavy combat or HWMA are true martial arts. I'd like to know if any of your hypothetical Dukes are interested in historical techniques based on period resources so they can contribute to the educational aspect of the SCA's corporate mission. Or do they just want to continue to dominate their particular game?

The top sticks in the SCA have the most potential to develop and widely disseminate current historical information, at the same high level as any practioner of an art or science wearing a Laurel badge. Why don't they do so? One has, to tremendous effect. A few more could do wonders....

[Kel Rekuta]

[quote="dukelogan"]

the major difference here is that sca sport combat is full force (except for those two kingdoms..... ) non choreographed contest and the rest are not.
I get a laugh out of this every time I see it. I played with sticks a long time and marshalled a long time, too. Anybody that hit full force i.e. too hard, got the cold shoulder from most fighters and risked having their card pulled. Admittedly, the level of acceptable force escalated significantly over the 23 years I played. I presume it continues to do so as I hear about 12 gauge helms becoming a necessity in some areas. Whatever.

I presume that you can crease 14 gauge at will, as most top stick fighters could when I played. Do you? Do you hit some playmates harder than others because you know they can take it or worse, require it? Can you hit them hard enough to knock them down? It was my experience that top sticks typically could. I wasn't a top notch fighter and I could. Don't give me this full force crap. I'll agree with full contact, though.

save the tuchux who have a really cool system of full body targeting, and some grappling. im sure there are others out there i simply do not know those.

Clearly.

anyway, coming from a real martial art (boxing)



and evolving into another real martial art (nbh mma submission) i can tell you that none of this compares to anything realistic as far as real combat is concerned. so how bout we only deal with the reality that is our own specific combat system and let some of the wind out of our chests?

Done.

and please, dont anyone suggest im a sissy for that or anything. ill fight whatever you think is cool. no worries from me there. i just think that we all have our own ways of playing at combat and thats cool. comparing them is something that can be done. making them compete against one another is also possible. it makes no sense to do so though. no matter what you think your martial training is, ground and pound wins the day (unless you get knocked out on your way in, but thats why i started as a boxer )

overall i think the tuchux have the best combat system in place for our similar (although totally different) games. i think full body targeting and grappling is the way to go. as far as animal feeling lazy fighting sca fighters goes..... find some that can fight. but regardless, i admire their culture when it comes to sport fighting.

Sounds like you are a perfect candidate to study the historical martial arts of Western Europe. You are a successful practitioner of an historically themed martial activity. Your skills should transfer very well. Oh, wait a minute, here it comes....

the metal guys all pull shots and i cant get behind that. i understand the reason (fuck getting killed) for it but it is all play fighting at that point. so its not my cup of bruises.

regards
logan

I never saw you at AEMMA training sessions nor at any public event or demonstration we provided. Nor have you trained with our brothers at the Ottawa Medieval Sword Guild. They would have commented on a visit from someone with your obvious experience and heartfelt opinions.

Clearly, you have never seen us in action or you wouldn't have such a mistaken and uninformed view of our activities. We don't get killed because:

Swords don't cut plate and rivetted mail harness, especially rebated swords.

Armoured opponents don't have to stand toe to toe and whack the snot out of each other. Its kind of loud and really messes up harness. Not much more effect than that.

A thrust to an area not covered in plate ends a fight pretty fast.

Grappling happens when you run out of weapons or ways to use them. It isn't the be all and end all of armoured combat. Just another set of technique for close quarters combat.

Victory conditions can be counted blows thrown or received. It can be submission. It can be, just like SCA or Tuchux rules, acceptance that a real weapon would have done you had your defense failed the same way.

Whatever you might think about whomever you've seen play with rebated steel, assuming you have seen it and not gotten your info through the rumour mill, it doesn't apply to all the metal guys.

Oh, here's your soapbox back. Thanks.

[Duncanthemonster]

This is sooooooooo not where I hoped this would go.
I really liked the start...I was acutaly hearing some differing ideas on the topic, which where leading to my rethinking/expanding of my original POV(which was my intent, not just for me but for everyone).

It's really not as fun as it was.
I wanted to try and see the activity of SCA Combat with new eyes...not slide into the often trod ground of 'my way is the best, LH pull shots, I can kick your teeth in, our way is the right way discourse.
Not what I hoped for at all.
I ain't got it right. I ain't perfect. I don't know shit.
I don't often post here, simply because I am new at the SCA, and fail to have the background knowledge to put forth like most folks.
I figured a way to change that would be to ask questions, and exaimine the answers. To expand my understanding of the subject at hand with the help of more experinced folks.
I hope maybe it still will.

[Reinhard]

My experience track is:
Olympic style fencing (piste)>SCA>Stoccatta style silver (a little bit)> Liechtenauer (a tiny bit)

(I'm not going to buy into the East/West Best bickering, shame guys!)

I was sure that the SCA was a martial art when I went to Stoccatta and started to learn Silver, Silver is a martial art in that it is a sword fighting style that was successfully used in life and death and Liechtenauer was used for centuries in a like sense.

I think the SCA and Olympic Fence are Martial Sports, even though OF is a lineal descendant of Liechtenauer (Vor und Nact/Right of Way and so on).

My reasoning is as so:
Both OF and SCA have incorporated sensible safety rules, and both sports have then progressed into something else in adopting methods that utilised the articiality of these restrictions. I applaud that most people can play both OF and SCA safely, it is that both styles now use winning shots (OF flick shots in electric, SCA snaps in grappling range, SCA invulnerable shields) that make them sports.
If the SCA was a martial art, you would not be permitted to snap or wrap and engage your opponent at grappling range where the vast majority of SCA shots are delivered. There would be a range restriction to show that 'within this range you'd be grabbed-and-stabbed'. Also, the shield which is obviously unrealistic in SCA combat, it works perfectly but in reality would not be as protective as the assumed armour, is a good safety device and they are quite difficult to make good ones which I fully understand the implementation of.

This is why I went to two handed weapons exclusively, because the range usage here is more accurate and the shield is not used.

If the SCA had stayed static when these and other articialities were implemented it would be a martial art, but it has grown and progressed into the fun sport we play. I see skilled martial artists amd skill martial sports(wo)men, I have the same respect for both.

[dukelogan]

sure, ill bite.....

the major difference here is that sca sport combat is full force (except for those two kingdoms..... ) non choreographed contest and the rest are not.
I get a laugh out of this every time I see it. I played with sticks a long time and marshalled a long time, too. Anybody that hit full force i.e. too hard,

that is a silly assumption. me hitting someone full force is not the same as a small women hitting someone full force nor is it the same as someone like duke davin hitting full force. you simply can not make such a blanket statement.

got the cold shoulder from most fighters and risked having their card pulled. Admittedly, the level of acceptable force escalated significantly over the 23 years I played. I presume it continues to do so as I hear about 12 gauge helms becoming a necessity in some areas. Whatever.

the dismissive "whatever" seems to indicate that you think that hitting hard, or being able to dent 12ga steel is bad. force levels have increased over the last 13 years i have been engaged in sca sport combat and that is a good thing. technique has improved as has the armor. it is what happens in any sport. the sca is no different. and since it is not a game of tag it only makes sense that it too will improve in those respects.

I presume that you can crease 14 gauge at will, as most top stick fighters could when I played.

yes

Do you?

sometimes. 12ga is harder but it too dents.

Do you hit some playmates harder than others because you know they can take it or worse, require it?

i follow the rules. the rules say that it is not up to me to judge the force of the blow i deliver. since i assume that every opponant i face is someone of good character i do my best and i will increase the force of my shots until something ends our contest. i never call my opponants blows and i loathe the idea that anyone has even the most remote idea of how hard a shot landed that did not land on them. its silly and it tends to be the battle cry for those lacking skill. this system is the biggest flaw in the sca sport combat system. but it is the one that makes it the most special. i wouldnt mind seeing sca sport combat go to a submission fight. that would get rid of the whinning and the unsupportable chest thumping. but that is not why i got into the sport and i like it the way it is.


Can you hit them hard enough to knock them down?

yes. and?

It was my experience that top sticks typically could. I wasn't a top notch fighter and I could. Don't give me this full force crap. I'll agree with full contact, though.

i will continue to refer to sca sport combat as a full force sport because it is. we do not have rules against it and the system itself demands it. sorry, that wont change just because you think its crap.

save the tuchux who have a really cool system of full body targeting, and some grappling. im sure there are others out there i simply do not know those.

Clearly.

anyway, coming from a real martial art (boxing)



and evolving into another real martial art (nbh mma submission) i can tell you that none of this compares to anything realistic as far as real combat is concerned. so how bout we only deal with the reality that is our own specific combat system and let some of the wind out of our chests?

Done.

and please, dont anyone suggest im a sissy for that or anything. ill fight whatever you think is cool. no worries from me there. i just think that we all have our own ways of playing at combat and thats cool. comparing them is something that can be done. making them compete against one another is also possible. it makes no sense to do so though. no matter what you think your martial training is, ground and pound wins the day (unless you get knocked out on your way in, but thats why i started as a boxer )

overall i think the tuchux have the best combat system in place for our similar (although totally different) games. i think full body targeting and grappling is the way to go. as far as animal feeling lazy fighting sca fighters goes..... find some that can fight. but regardless, i admire their culture when it comes to sport fighting.

Sounds like you are a perfect candidate to study the historical martial arts of Western Europe. You are a successful practitioner of an historically themed martial activity. Your skills should transfer very well. Oh, wait a minute, here it comes....

the metal guys all pull shots and i cant get behind that. i understand the reason (fuck getting killed) for it but it is all play fighting at that point. so its not my cup of bruises.

regards
logan

I never saw you at AEMMA training sessions nor at any public event or demonstration we provided. Nor have you trained with our brothers at the Ottawa Medieval Sword Guild. They would have commented on a visit from someone with your obvious experience and heartfelt opinions.

Clearly, you have never seen us in action or you wouldn't have such a mistaken and uninformed view of our activities. We don't get killed because:

i have seen video from dozens of metal clubs. like i said in my original post, there may be some that i dont know about. you know, the part where you inserted another snide comment.......

Swords don't cut plate and rivetted mail harness, especially rebated swords.

doesnt seem to dent it much either from what ive seen. if the swing was hard i dont see how the armor could hold up that well. i hit 14 and 12ga steel legs and arms with rattan and it dents. not always of course, but it does. i couldnt imagine how bad it would be if i hit it with a real weapon. i have fought sidesword and i have a great respect for the damage a blade can do. but to suggest that you guys are throwing really hard shots seems less then genuine. unless you simply do not know how to hit hard and you are thrwoing your best. i think that there is a great deal of admiration available for most combat systems. i just dont think that a direct comparison can be made as you suggest.

Armoured opponents don't have to stand toe to toe and whack the snot out of each other. Its kind of loud and really messes up harness. Not much more effect than that.

what if they like to stand close and fight? sounds to me like another aspect of your system that discourages contest. not saying that for any reason other than to support my suggestion that you are not going at it with the same intent as we are. again, im cool with that, its just not gig.

A thrust to an area not covered in plate ends a fight pretty fast.

Grappling happens when you run out of weapons or ways to use them. It isn't the be all and end all of armoured combat. Just another set of technique for close quarters combat.

the biggest disappointment in sca sport combat is our lack of grappling. i can understand why we dont do it but it removes so much of the reality of combat. not that sca sport combat is anything close to reality when it comes down to it, it does have rules. im curious though, when you guys grapple do you do so until submission?

Victory conditions can be counted blows thrown or received. It can be submission. It can be, just like SCA or Tuchux rules, acceptance that a real weapon would have done you had your defense failed the same way.

sounds cool

Whatever you might think about whomever you've seen play with rebated steel, assuming you have seen it and not gotten your info through the rumour mill, it doesn't apply to all the metal guys.

yeah, i mentioned that in my original post. you made a snide comment about it but offered nothing in return. so to date i still have not seen this group of metal guys that hit one another with the amount of force that would indicate full force steel fighting. the closest i have seen is a series of videos that i received that is held inside a gym of some kind. the video/audio quality is poor so its hard to make out the sounds as the crowd yells the contestants names often.

anyway, in the final match there is a guy with a great helm and red tabard fighting a guy in a bascinet and red and white quarted tabard. they are fighting with single swords in their right hands and nothing in their left hands. they close a few times and one or the other head butts his opponent. i like it so much i kept that one fight. the rest were cool but not worth the hard drive space to save.

the great helm takes a number of blows and does show some damage. the guy in it seemed to get beaten most of the time from the other guy. and, some of the blows looked hard and well thrown. but hey all were much slower than what i see in the sca. with all that in mind and all of the other things i have seen of metal groups i based my opinion on that and commented accordingly. not a soapbox, just one mans observation.

regards
logan

Oh, here's your soapbox back. Thanks.

[Rod Walker]

Just because someone can swing really fast and hit really, really hard with a piece of rattan doesn't mean that that technique will translate to using a real (rebated) sword.

Using a real sword isn't all about swinging it as fast and hitting as hard as you can with it.

what if they like to stand close and fight? sounds to me like another aspect of your system that discourages contest. not saying that for any reason other than to support my suggestion that you are not going at it with the same intent as we are. again, im cool with that, its just not gig.

Why would you want to stand toe to toe and just swing at each other???? I have seen SCA fights doing this and can never understand why you do it. Doesn't anyone know how to pass??? If you get into the toe to toe situation you either pass into/out off or off to one side or the other, or you go to half sword.
Having been in a few street fights, standing toe to toe and slugging it out is a gaurenteed way to end up just as beat up as the other guy.

SCA style fighting works well within the ruleset set up for it, why try to make it something it isn't?

As for SCA fighting being a martial art. You have rules, techniques, gradings etc. Seems to fit the criteria of just about every other martial art out there.

[Sir Daniel]

on topic:

Something just occured to me. Of all the fighting styles I've done, some felt like sport and some felt like art. What made the difference? the training that happend off the mat/field. The philosophy.

If all we did was training to mock-beat each other, it felt like sport. If we stopped and talked philosophy, chivalry, zen whatever, THAT is when it crosses over into Martial Art.

Off topic:

I just though of an improvment that would be kind of cool. What if Knights only (in the SCA) were allowed to go to 'advanced fighting' similar to what the tuchux use? Full body targeting, armour as worn, punching and kicking, maybe even some amount of grappling? There could be standard fighting and then advanced. Basically you only allow the advanced stuff to the Chivalry to make sure that only experts in the standard style can optionally practice the no-holds barred stuff.

It's just a thought.

Or you all could come up for Ragnarok...

[dukelogan]

the off topic:

that is so simple i wonder why no one has mentioned it before. i think its a great idea daniel. i would later my kit a little for those contests because i lack lower shin protection. i dont see why we cant allow that, all it would take is some minor rules adjustments (basically permissions). and, i bet, the contest would be much better. you should bring it up on the sca chiv list.

regards
logan

on topic:

Something just occured to me. Of all the fighting styles I've done, some felt like sport and some felt like art. What made the difference? the training that happend off the mat/field. The philosophy.

If all we did was training to mock-beat each other, it felt like sport. If we stopped and talked philosophy, chivalry, zen whatever, THAT is when it crosses over into Martial Art.

Off topic:

I just though of an improvment that would be kind of cool. What if Knights only (in the SCA) were allowed to go to 'advanced fighting' similar to what the tuchux use? Full body targeting, armour as worn, punching and kicking, maybe even some amount of grappling? There could be standard fighting and then advanced. Basically you only allow the advanced stuff to the Chivalry to make sure that only experts in the standard style can optionally practice the no-holds barred stuff.

It's just a thought.

Or you all could come up for Ragnarok...

[jester]

the off topic:

that is so simple i wonder why no one has mentioned it before. i think its a great idea daniel. i would later my kit a little for those contests because i lack lower shin protection. i dont see why we cant allow that, all it would take is some minor rules adjustments (basically permissions). and, i bet, the contest would be much better. you should bring it up on the sca chiv list.

regards
logan

on topic:

Something just occured to me. Of all the fighting styles I've done, some felt like sport and some felt like art. What made the difference? the training that happend off the mat/field. The philosophy.

If all we did was training to mock-beat each other, it felt like sport. If we stopped and talked philosophy, chivalry, zen whatever, THAT is when it crosses over into Martial Art.

Off topic:

I just though of an improvment that would be kind of cool. What if Knights only (in the SCA) were allowed to go to 'advanced fighting' similar to what the tuchux use? Full body targeting, armour as worn, punching and kicking, maybe even some amount of grappling? There could be standard fighting and then advanced. Basically you only allow the advanced stuff to the Chivalry to make sure that only experts in the standard style can optionally practice the no-holds barred stuff.

It's just a thought.

Or you all could come up for Ragnarok...

It has been mentioned before. But not by anyone with a 'name. I suggested modular rules that would allow for advanced authorizations several years ago (on this forum and on a fighting dedicated forum in the Outlands) and people thought it was the ruin of the game. I should hasten to add that the idea was not originally mine, I cribbed it from someone else and put my own mark on the idea, and I was writing even more poorly than I do now (if that can be believed).

Similarly we have people voicing strong objections to some of the optional rule proposals being discussed on this board right now. You want to grapple? People are getting up in arms about allowing open-hand pushes. And the feedback I have gotten from the Society level members of the marshalate is that they'll consider the ideas, but they probably won't do anything with them.

If you really want to grapple and such in the SCA rule-set I can tell you how to do it. It will make you very unpopular with the marshalate since it's really weaseling the rules, but it's very arguable legal (although probably not manly enough).

[Nissan Maxima]

For obvious reasons (such as not being on the chivalry track) I think the idea of restricting this kind of fun to the chivalry is wrong. I think something like the halfsword experiment where you send an e-mail to the earl marshall to ask if you can play, and then just ask your opponent (who has also sent in his e-mail) if you can leg sweep him and stomp him in the face.

I play this kind of game with my buddies, hell, Duke Darius ( who kneed me in the face) and I used to do it a decade ago. It is big fun.

[jester]

the major difference here is that sca sport combat is full force (except for those two kingdoms..... ) non choreographed contest and the rest are not.
[b]I get a laugh out of this every time I see it. I played with sticks a long time and marshalled a long time, too. Anybody that hit full force i.e. too hard,

that is a silly assumption. me hitting someone full force is not the same as a small women hitting someone full force nor is it the same as someone like duke davin hitting full force. you simply can not make such a blanket statement.

Kel does have a point here, I think. We talk about the SCA being full force, but then we have an excessive force rule. Granted, someone like myself can safely flail away at full force and not get close to breaking the excessive force guidelines while Duke Logan has to exercise control to avoid hurting people. But looking at this logically the excessive force rule is a pretty good argument against claiming full force.

Then there is the question of technique. I've been over this before, but I'll do it again. Swordfighting and stick fighting place different emphasis upon blows. A blow with the sword has perpendicular force (impact) and tangential force (shearing). SCA combat has zero use for shearing and has developed a very effective mechanism for creating impact force. Some (big word there, all groups are the same) rebated metal groups attempting to use historically accurate techniques are generating less impact, but they are including shearing. The evidence I have heard about seems to indicate that the shearing is a very important component.

So, when folks in the SCA look at rebated metal fighting they perceive less impact and conclude that the metal fighters are 'playing a game of tag'. And some of the metal groups are. But not all.

[jester]

For obvious reasons (such as not being on the chivalry track) I think the idea of restricting this kind of fun to the chivalry is wrong. I think something like the halfsword experiment where you send an e-mail to the earl marshall to ask if you can play, and then just ask your opponent (who has also sent in his e-mail) if you can leg sweep him and stomp him in the face.

I play this kind of game with my buddies, hell, Duke Darius ( who kneed me in the face) and I used to do it a decade ago. It is big fun.

I agree. It should be based on demonstrated skill levels. And while a white belt is a good indicator of skill levels, it's not a guarantee.

[dukelogan]

Just because someone can swing really fast and hit really, really hard with a piece of rattan doesn't mean that that technique will translate to using a real (rebated) sword.

doesnt mean it wont either. i know it will because i know i can swing a rebated steel sword really fast and really hard, with a lot of accuracy. so i know for a fact it doesnt proclude it.

Using a real sword isn't all about swinging it as fast and hitting as hard as you can with it.

i never suggest that. all i said was from the footage i have seen of steel fighting it is obvious the shots are not being thrown as fast as they could be, or the fighters thrwoing blows all lack the skill to do so. that, in my opinion, shows a remarkable difference between the two systems. om not knocking one over the other only stating what seems obvious.

what if they like to stand close and fight? sounds to me like another aspect of your system that discourages contest. not saying that for any reason other than to support my suggestion that you are not going at it with the same intent as we are. again, im cool with that, its just not gig.

Why would you want to stand toe to toe and just swing at each other????

why not?

I have seen SCA fights doing this and can never understand why you do it.

sloppy retreat gets people beaten all the time. personally i like to snipe people at range as they close or when they think they are out of my range. i do pretty well under those conditions. i also have a ton of options when im belly to belly with my opponant and do fiarly well up close. what is it about fighting in close that you have trouble understanding? have you ever fought sca? that might be the answer.

Doesn't anyone know how to pass???

in sca sport combat you are allowed one hit on a passing opponant and as many as you want as long as you stay within your weapons range of him. so passing will usually get you beaten in single combat. so its not so much not "knowing" how to pass but rather not needing to.

If you get into the toe to toe situation you either pass into/out off or off to one side or the other, or you go to half sword.

or simply throw a nice combo and finish the fight

Having been in a few street fights, standing toe to toe and slugging it out is a gaurenteed way to end up just as beat up as the other guy.

well, that depends on your skill set. as a boxer and a knowledgable grappler i strongly disagree both in theory and in expirence. i know a few muay thai guys that would disagree more strongly than i.

SCA style fighting works well within the ruleset set up for it, why try to make it something it isn't?

i never did so im not sure to whom you are addressing your comments to

As for SCA fighting being a martial art. You have rules, techniques, gradings etc. Seems to fit the criteria of just about every other martial art out there.

i agree

[Vitus von Atzinger]

It is absolutely true that the numerous bruises, occasional brown-outs, rare broken bones, cracked teeth and gallons of sweat that has poured out of me in tourney with weapons of peace would be considered very knightly exercise by the knights of the Middle Ages. If you examine the risks and the types of injuries that were common in every other type of combat *other than Outrance encounters*, you will see that SCA combat is indeed medieval chivalric sport/art. It is a martial art because it teaches you to HIT people really hard with weapons, while teaching you how to avoid being hit. It is sport because it creates the type of bash, crash and dash that medieval nobles expected in their own tournament encounters....done to display skill and the willingness to be bashed in the spirit of good fun. Very rough fun.
Outrance encounters were fights where other -far more dangerous- techniques were expected. These are the types of techniques that Bob Charron can teach you. These are the types of techniques that the other WMA groups are learning about. However, for most deeds of arms, behourds and foot combat in the lists, people expected to be hit hard because they were interested in showing a willingness to be hit hard, to recieve those huge bruises, risk having broken bones and the other things that happened when two fully armoured people wailed away at each other in encounters that were understand by all involved to be for the fun of it, or to prove that they were not afraid of those risks that the average person would run like hell from. That is different than a judicial duel to the death, or a combat where it is agreed there would be no-holds-barred. These occasional encounters where a no-holds-barred situation was agreed upon- they made BIG news. They were like mini battles. People died. In Plaisance fights people died by accident, and it was always looked upon as a sad thing, because *getting killed wasn't the point- proving you were skilled and tough WAS the point*.
Would the average person -even the average "martial arts" practitioner, be interested in the types of beatings we give each other? Hell no. SCA combat is very similar in that it is looking to create the same limits that tourney combat was seeking to create. This is why jousting with sharp lances is always mentioned- because people jousted with rebated lances all the time--- for fun and to prove they were skilled and tough.

[St. George]

the major difference here is that sca sport combat is full force (except for those two kingdoms..... ) non choreographed contest and the rest are not.
[b]I get a laugh out of this every time I see it. I played with sticks a long time and marshalled a long time, too. Anybody that hit full force i.e. too hard,

Kel does have a point here, I think. We talk about the SCA being full force, but then we have an excessive force rule. Granted, someone like myself can safely flail away at full force and not get close to breaking the excessive force guidelines while Duke Logan has to exercise control to avoid hurting people. But looking at this logically the excessive force rule is a pretty good argument against claiming full force.

No, I disagree.

I can hit very hard, not nearly as hard as Logan, but I am told often enough that I hit "too hard." My point, however, is that I can hit A LOT HARDER. I think when people say full force, they mean (controlled) full force. Any fool can come out and swing a lot harder than we are, but he'll probably get hit two or thrree times before his firstblow comes through.

Alaric

[Tim Merritt]

No, I’m not on a membership drive.

Yes, I rarely post, and a high percentage of my posts reference them.

There are a few organizations with very similar focus, but I believe that the Association for Renaissance Martial Arts is on target. I just skimmed over a few of their essays, and I think a look-over, even by you veterans who have already read them, may add to the subject discussion.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/DefofHS.htm

http://www.thearma.org/essays/MartialAr ... tSport.htm

http://www.thearma.org/essays/reen.htm

http://www.thearma.org/essays/breakrules.htm

http://www.thearma.org/essays/core_assumptions.html

[Sinister_Theo]

Sir Vitus,

So essentially SCA fighting is a medium for proving you can "take it". If you don't feel the need to prove yourself and are of good character, does SCA fighting offer anything, cardiovascular workout aside?

Theoderic

[jester]

the major difference here is that sca sport combat is full force (except for those two kingdoms..... ) non choreographed contest and the rest are not.
[b]I get a laugh out of this every time I see it. I played with sticks a long time and marshalled a long time, too. Anybody that hit full force i.e. too hard,

Kel does have a point here, I think. We talk about the SCA being full force, but then we have an excessive force rule. Granted, someone like myself can safely flail away at full force and not get close to breaking the excessive force guidelines while Duke Logan has to exercise control to avoid hurting people. But looking at this logically the excessive force rule is a pretty good argument against claiming full force.

No, I disagree.

I can hit very hard, not nearly as hard as Logan, but I am told often enough that I hit "too hard." My point, however, is that I can hit A LOT HARDER. I think when people say full force, they mean (controlled) full force. Any fool can come out and swing a lot harder than we are, but he'll probably get hit two or thrree times before his firstblow comes through.

Alaric

I think that was my point, Your Grace. People trying rebated steel combat and don't get hit with the level of impact force that they expect and they conclude that it is a game of tag. This fails to take into account the difference between cutting with a sword and smashing with a stick. The rebated steel fighters might be swinging (controlled) full force, but folks with SCA experience might not realize this.

Full force in the SCA does not equal full force in rebated steel BECAUSE they are using different force application models. SCA = 0% shear + 100% impact vs (some) rebated steel/aluminum = >0% shear + <100% impact.