The Armour Archive

Duncanthemonster wrote:I would do it 3 times a week if I could find the time/money/kitchen pass.

Fearghus wrote:I'll agree that SCA fighting is more "sporty" than other martial endeavors, but to say that unless you are locked in mortal combat, you're not doing a martial art is just silly.
If what you are doing has applications to the real use of weapons, be fists or knives, you are practicing a martial art. If you look at 19th century French cane fighting techniques, many SCA strikes directly correspond to the strikes shown. Since cane fighting was one of the ways a 19th cent gentleman was expected to defend himself, does that not make the techniques martial arts?
SCA combat is what it is. I like the free form aspect of it. Given some simple parameters, I can do what I want. I'd like a little more shield contact and body to body contact, but I can live with it the way it is.

Dagonet wrote:all the activities beind described as sports are sports. More importantly though they are a form of training for real combat, though perhaps styalized a bit. Just because someone has never used what they practice to kill someone does not make them less of a practitioner. The power does not come from killing someone but rather from knowing how...or more importantly in knowing how to avoid having to.

ME>>
That is my Point....sport is sport...even based on an Art. I will agree with you on every point you make here.
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By your logic though, saying that anything that results in death is a martial art, a bar room brawl could be a martial art...or going and getting your gun out of your glove box and shooting someone is a martial art. If I shoot him, he dies, and im a martial artist? That just doesn't jive to me.

ME>>

No...I mostly agree with you again. The result is not the key. The result you train for is. A Soldier in the US Army is a Martial Artist. A Paintballer is a Martial Sports Player. They have similar skilsets, and one can tranfer to the other...the focus and mindset are the key.
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Examine strip fencing for a moment. It is very much a sport. It is very much styled to the rules. Those rules were initially created to teach the use of a sword. To say that now, in the year 2005, a strip fencer couldn't apply his abilities to a real weapon and use it to efectively and efficiently dispose of someone is just silly.
ME<<
Agreed...a strip fencer is highly skilled(defently more so than I)because he is highly trained...but could he win against someone who as equally trained not to win strip fenceing, but to survive a real sword fight for their life?
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Though SCA fighting was not designed to be training for real sword combat, the game we play is not a new one...at all. I feel confident that after my 8 years of heavy fighting that if I were placed in a life threating situation and I had a real sword, or even a stick, I would be able to meet that situation properly.
ME<<
Again...so might a paintballer in a firefight...if they could acutal shoot a person dead. That is the hard part. the Army trains it's troops on a man shaped moving target, not a bullseye....ever wonder why?
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In a real fight the winner is the one that deaded the other...in practice/play/game/sport the winner is the one that beat the other...in a way that in real life the loser would have died. Before it is said I know that armor standards and blow convention are not the most realistic....blah blah blah. Point being, the purely physical aspects of SCA combat, much like many other eastern martial arts, have application in real fighting scenerios.
ME<<
Agree...not the physical I am saying make it a sport.
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All of this completely neglects the internal aspects of the activity.
ME>>
No..I disagree here..that is my point. The internal aspects are, to me, the defining differences.
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Sir Guy wrote:ahem........being one of the knights in the area (Japan) Aaron speaks of.

I would say that Sir Rob and myself fight for more then just to win. I will not speak for my brother however I fight for different things at different times....My King, the smile of the ladies favor I am wearing, the crowd, to teach, the honor of facing someone on the field and besting them in either single combat or war, many other reasons as well. The shear joy I get from all if the above. But hey, I am a knight and that is what knights do.

I see it as both an Art and a Sport.

With Repsect,

Sir Guy

<<But, that being said there is both sport and art in SCA heavy fighting. I fight for my lady and the crowd, and frankly I’m putting on a show…so I’m a Martial Artist. My local KSCAs fight to win, so they fight in a Martial Sport. We’re both in the same ring, with different objectives, but it’s still fun. >>

Sir Guy wrote:ahem........being one of the knights in the area (Japan) Aaron speaks of.

cadogan wrote:Sure, we fight with rattan sticks, but if you were jumped in an alley and snatched up a peice of pipe or a broken 2X4, wouldn't the training you receive in the SCA benefit you as much as someone who trained in TKD?

SCA fighting is a martial art. Look at the words that make up the term: (dictionary.com)

Martial:
1. Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
2. Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
3. Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.

Art: (relevent definitions)
1. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
2. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.
3. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.

Now, considering the above, how do we apply it? Since we choose NOT to kill each other, we have devised a "sport" to best apply what we have learned and to drive up our skill and technique against live opponents. This is true in TKD as well as SCA.

Sport:
1. Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
2. A particular form of this activity.
3. An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.

So, in short, what do we and others not in the SCA see in the lists? A sport based on a martial art. What do you practice on your pell at home? A martial art.

Dagonet wrote:Personally, I take a bit more pride in my activity. If you do not believe that there is form, technique, strategy and style to be applied in SCA combat then you are fooling yourself. If anyone believes these things do not exist in SCA combat they have not examined the activity closely enough.

Duncanthemonster wrote:Anything where the outcome is death.
The forms of fighting, whereever they come from, where ment to damage people. When you spar in any form...it's a game.
A game Based on a Martial Art...not the art it's self.
let me try and make that more clear.
lets say there was the Anceint Art of Ku-Fu-Ka...a graceful, yet brutal way of turning people into chuncky salsa used in the XXth century in Uberfarastain by local fisherman....now a days, the only folks who know anything about it meet at strip malls and swat at each other with padded fish.
The have judges, a rule makeing body, and a ranking system.
They hold twice yearly competions where the person who best swats all commers with a padded fish wins a bowl of pickled eggs.


Is that a Martial Art? I see it as a sport based on a Martial Art...but it's a sport now.
Can it be reto-fitted from sport to Art? Yup...as soon as fish are once agian the ultimite weapon. Can the practicioers of the modern sport claim to understand what those wise fisherman knew? In a distant no life or death way...sure. Truly...nope.
Does a guy who has never served in the Military, and been in an acutal firefight know what it is like...because he's played HALO? or paintball?
Paintball is very similar to small unit fireteam action....but it ain't "for real"
Done both...not the same thing...similar in many respects, but not the same.
Make any sense?

James B. wrote:
Any knight in the SCA can so kick my ass in the SCA but if I handed you a metal suit of armor and a rebatted sword and take away "kill/wound" rules the SCA plays by I have the advantage.