How many people DO NOT fight from their knees

[Murdock]

No i'm not being positive. I'm being real.

If you do make that scarifice (aside from having to explain it over and over and over. And being told how dumb it is over and over and over)

You will end up not playing in the simple fact that you will loose quickly and end up siting out early.

There are places that the opportunity for "period feats of arms" are virtually non existant. So you have to play in the modern style lists if you want to play at all.

You either play whats there or you sit on the sideline.

Hell you introdouce weapons other than sword and shield as the requirements for a list and people's heads almost explode.

[Asbjorn Johansen]

Just out of curiosity, for those who do not fight from their knees, because its "ahistorical" or "looks silly" Do you also conceed the fight when struck in the arm?

just curious,
Ulrich

Generally yes,

[Ceddie]

I'm with you Murdock, sometimes you gotta playball. I wish that we could change it faster but at least we are trying to affect a change, untill then, you can say, "I won't do it" from the sideline all you want, you're still on the sideline and not in the fight.

No i'm not being positive. I'm being real.

If you do make that scarifice (aside from having to explain it over and over and over. And being told how dumb it is over and over and over)

You will end up not playing in the simple fact that you will loose quickly and end up siting out early.

There are places that the opportunity for "period feats of arms" are virtually non existant. So you have to play in the modern style lists if you want to play at all.

You either play whats there or you sit on the sideline.

Hell you introdouce weapons other than sword and shield as the requirements for a list and people's heads almost explode.

[LeeC]

Gentlemen there is enough room in the SCA for each of the standpoints I have seen from SCA members here, why not show respect for them each?

No one has proposed anything that impinges upon anyone but the person who makes the choice.

Please forgive my sad memory but I am fairly certain I have read of at least two period tourney chronicles that mention someone having their thigh ran through in rebatted tourney and continuing on. Please forgive my lack of documentation from here at work.

Also what are we considering our weapons to be? In the Middle Ages artificial rules existed for some rebatted forms just as in the SCA.

So there we have two different things to ponder, and then there is the clear third....not fighting on your knees. Which to me often represents just what most of the gentlemen here are conveying. Whether they are required to concede the fight or not, the injury excludes them from continuing on in the combat. Which no one should ever denigrate.

So if my memory is not totally faulty then we have precedent for:

1. Continuing to fight in a tourney with even grave injuries done to the thigh.

2. Artificial rules that compensate for not fighting with eged steel.

3. Regardless of any and all rules conceding a fight if wounded to a limb due to personal incapcitation.

Are we not all accomodated?

That said, I do have trouble seeing someone with a serious leg wound dropping and twisting ang gyrating with great vigor for long periods, or hopping on one foot. But unless we declare all such wounds to be round ending, or all counted blows then there are not many options for simulating injuries to the extremities that are not incapacitating.

*shrugs*

[Trevor]

OK-I gotta share this.

Last Memorial Day, we had an Arthurian Quest (the tale of Sir Gareth and the Red Knight). Various bad guys lined the trail through the woods, but it was a 3 counted blow victory standard for all of the questers and most of the bad guys.

The only bad guys that didn't adhere to this standard was the green knight, who only accepted a single blow to the head, and the Black Knight.

The Black knight's helmet and surcoat were taken directly from Monty Python (it was my only Python-ish move, the rest was from period literature). The Black knight did not take any blows to the helmet or the body. However, he did take and act out (SCA style) blows to the arms and legs.

I don't know if anyone caught the delicious irony, but I did set it up to poke fun at our standards. Who knew that an absurd Monty Python skit, of all things, would mirror our game so well?

BTW-we're doing an Arthurian event again this year on Memorial day (May 29). Quest for the holy Grail-should be a hoot.

[Noe]

It's interesting how many different reasons people have for disliking fighting from there knees. Some people find it silly looking; others find it painful, still yet others find that acting out wounds altogether to be undignified.

Myself, I have some sympathy for all of these viewpoints; however, one concern that I have always had is that the knee fighting system does not always effectively achieve its intended purpose: to put the "wounded" party at a disadvantage. This flaw is not inherent in the system itself, but results from the restrictions placed upon a fighter who is attacking a legged opponent. You cannot corkscrew, you cannot overrun, and you cannot even get too close. Furthermore, with the system as it stands, the wounded fighter now no longer has to defend his/her lower half.

As I have mentioned before, the best indication that there is a flaw in the system is that you have fighters who say something like "I win most of my fights from my knees." Now imagine a real fighter saying some like like "Yeah, I fight better with my kneecap chopped off." It's ridiculous, and I always feel a bit embarrassed for the fighter who makes such a statement. Although it is a skill, it is a skill that is based on an imperfection in the combat model, rather than on authentic martial skill. It's just tweaking the system.

I would mind fightin from my knees a little less if the SCA did away with the special protections that the fighter on his knees has. The person on his knees is supposed to be at a disadvantage; by giving him extra protection, we invalidate the reason for the system. I rather suspect that we would have an easier time convincing people to go with alternative systems (standing leg wounds, counted blows, what have you) if this were the case.

(Incidently, Freiman the minstrel -- back before the two of us had met -- once replied to my view of kneeling to model leg wounds by stating that the people who railed the most against kneeling combat were the one's who couldn't do it well. We've since had a chance to talk, and I hope by now it is apparent that my primary concern is with improving our ability to simulate combat so that we might improve ourselves as fighters, not to change the system to compensate for a flaw in my own skill. Besides, I have so many flaws that to compensate for them all there would have to be a special "Noe" rule requiring all opponents to immediately yield.)

[Brian de Lorne]

Out of curiosity, where in the rules does it say you can't get to close? When someone goes to their knees, around here we back off, ask if they're comfortable, when they say yes, we come in and get all up on them. Use the advantage you've earned. I'm just curious if this is actually against any rules. I thought I'd read through all of the rules out there, but I don't recall seeing anything to this effect.

[Cathal O'Ruarc]

Here in the Cleftlands, a strike to the leg does not stop combat. A legged opponent is still swinging on the way down, and the "legger" had better be prepared. Typically, the one now standing either continues to attack, or backs off to consider taking the point of honour. And yes, the standing fighter can move as close as possible, even to the point of standing between the knees of the legged fighter. A good option if you can throw and defend against a good wrap shot.

Since wrap shots are above my skill level (in order to avoid injury), I stay away.