The Armour Archive

Hey all. I have been fighting in the SCA since '98 and with rebated steel for about a year now, though I don't do either with much regularity. Did a steel event in August, three day's fighting, and noticed my elbow hurt afterwards. Next event was in October, two days fighting, same thing. Then in January I went to an SCA practice, and partook of only two hours of combat (perhaps twenty bouts?). The next day, I noticed the pain in my elbow again, this time it lingered for a few days.

Went to the doctor today, who told me it was tennis elbow- ice it, take Ibuprofen, and it'll pass. I explained to him that months had passed between fighting sessions, he looked concerned, but didn't change his mind- just said to buy a tennis elbow tensure bandage. He showed me a couple exercises, putting my palm flat on a tabletop and pushing down, putting my palms together in front of my chest & pushing them against each other.

So, it's obviouly an issue of poor technique- someone who fights as little as I do shouldn't be layed up with an injured elbow. I'm going to address the technique thing with some of the local fighters. But regarding the doc's diagnosis- do you guys buy it? As in, should I just start carrying an icepack, gobbling Advil and keep fighting, whether the elbow hurts or not? Sounds like a very stupid idea, but that's what the doctor told me!

This is half a question, half a bitch, I think TTYL

~Wil

My suggestion for the tenis elbow:

1) If you really want to fight than you may need to get one of those arm wraps that helps support the tendons near the elbow. This will help with the physical discomfort while fighting. Otherwise giving your body a couple of weeks off to heal is what I had to do to get rid of the tendnoitis.

2) Technique wise make sure you are using your hips and whole body when you throw the shot not just the arm. My tennis elbow got bad when my technique got sloppy. Also watch the wrap shots that hyperextension and the break over of the arm as you go from "holding the bowl of soup" to "dumping it on the guy's head" is hard on the elbow.

3) Use pain killers judicisouly remember they are covering up the pain and decreasing inflammation but they are not healing the injury.

For myself the rest and cleaner technique really helped.

Hope this helps

Kylan

Sounds like your doctor is dead on. Ice, rest, alleve (longer lasting than Ibu) and then stretching. Get a Dyna-band and do some stretching exercises each day. Go get PT if it gets bad enough.

Don't lean on the elbow, either, but that's a hard habit to break.

Alejandro, tendonitis sufferer since 2004

tendonitis on the elbow sucks. What I did and am still doing was I started with anti-inflammatory not pain killers. reduce the swelling and the healing can start. mask the pain and you will continue to damage yourself. then get a strap that goes around the forearm for the compression. Next I got a cortisone shot followed by limited use for about 2 weeks. now come the really proactive step...STRETCH!!! A LOT!!!! Increase the muscle flexibility and you will decrease the stress on the joint.
Best of luck.

I've had three different types of elbow injury in the SCA, two of them are different forms of RSI (repetitve strain injury), the other was from getting hit on the funny bone through a gap in my armor.

It's important to distinguish between tennis and golf elbow - even though many experts accidentally call both of them tennis elbow, so make sure you know which you have. That said, I know that I've personally had pain on the inside (medial?) of my elbow near the surface. This form of tendonitis came from throwing my shots too hard, extending my elbow a little too far, and trying to rapidly extend then contract my elbow (ie: throw a shot and then pull it back). That hurt.

Now I have a pain on the outside of my elbow between the large center point of the elbow and the lower point. If I EVER straighten my arm it hurts like crazy - even if I'm just walking around. Both injuries were chronic over the course of at least a year.

Needless to say, I'm going to make some physiotherapy appointments!

Use your other hand for wanking off?

Actually, I have had the same problem with my left elbow from when I was delivering mail. 10 - 12 hours a day reaching behind me for packages that averaged less than 5 lbs., and grabbing here and there for letters. It still hurts after 5 months. (Fortunately I am right-handed! ) Joint damage takes forever to heal, especially as you get older.

Wil,

Damon ended up getting laser physio on the scar tissue on his elbow. Poof. New elbow.

Before this he couldn;t fight AT ALL with a broadsword righthanded.

Everyone else has good advice here. Ice after fighting is one of the keys, it lets the tendons realize they have time to heal properly instead of needing to build scar tissue.

Tony

Are you working out between these practices? If not, and you only fight once every 2-3 months, then this is going to be a constant problem for you. Your body is going to complain about the physical abuse if it is not conditioned to deal with it. If you don't do pell work or exercise, make sure you wrap your elbow when you do fight. Also, try taking Ibuprofen before practice rather than after. That way it is starting to work before you start swinging. Then just pay attention to the type of shots that you throw and hopefully you will be ok.

Uric

i had a similar problem with my elbow when i played baseball as a kid, i snapped my arm to throw hard rather than commit my whole body to it. When i taught myself to throw differently, the pain stopped.

So, because of that, i really think this is a technique issue more than anything. Trying to pull shots, stop and change direction etc are always going to put a lot of stress on joints and what holds them together. If you attack, you need to follow through or connect in order to release that energy some how, pulling back will just strain you.

i know you dont want to die by over committing a missed shot, but if you move properly, you should be able to defend yourself against counter attack while you regain another stance. (think lichtenauers longsword technique, all attacks are a defense etc)

Other than that, like any sport, train train train! you need to develop strength along with technique, or you will injure yourself.


hope it starts feeling better soon


Sal

i had a similar problem with my elbow when i played baseball as a kid, i snapped my arm to throw hard rather than commit my whole body to it. When i taught myself to throw differently, the pain stopped.

So, because of that, i really think this is a technique issue more than anything. Trying to pull shots, stop and change direction etc are always going to put a lot of stress on joints and what holds them together. If you attack, you need to follow through or connect in order to release that energy some how, pulling back will just strain you.

i know you dont want to die by over committing a missed shot, but if you move properly, you should be able to defend yourself against counter attack while you regain another stance. (think lichtenauers longsword technique, all attacks are a defense etc)

Other than that, like any sport, train train train! you need to develop strength along with technique, or you will injure yourself.


hope it starts feeling better soon


Sal

Baron Alejandro wrote:Don't lean on the elbow, either, but that's a hard habit to break.

Alejandro, tendonitis sufferer since 2004

*Cathal frowns as he realizes that's exactly what he is doing while reading this post.*

Cathal O'Ruarc wrote:

Baron Alejandro wrote:Don't lean on the elbow, either, but that's a hard habit to break.

Alejandro, tendonitis sufferer since 2004

*Cathal frowns as he realizes that's exactly what he is doing while reading this post.*

Yeah, it's a big problem for me too! I have to constantly keep myself from doing it!

Marsh Grendel wrote:2) Technique wise make sure you are using your hips and whole body when you throw the shot not just the arm. My tennis elbow got bad when my technique got sloppy. Also watch the wrap shots that hyperextension and the break over of the arm as you go from "holding the bowl of soup" to "dumping it on the guy's head" is hard on the elbow.

This is definetly an issue- when I first started fighting, I always made a deliberate effort to use my whole body. When I found out I could generate sufficient force just swinging my arm, I got lazy, and I'd say half the shots I throw are flat-footed, with no hips or legs.

Baron Alejandro wrote:Don't lean on the elbow, either, but that's a hard habit to break.

You know, I actually sleep with my elbow bent & my head resting on it, and have noticed some discomfort in the mornings...

Ewan wrote:Wil,

Damon ended up getting laser physio on the scar tissue on his elbow. Poof. New elbow.

Before this he couldn;t fight AT ALL with a broadsword righthanded.

Everyone else has good advice here. Ice after fighting is one of the keys, it lets the tendons realize they have time to heal properly instead of needing to build scar tissue.

Tony

Thanks Tony... Damon/Gunther is one of the people I've been thinking about for the last couple weeks... I didn't know he'd undergone any surgery, so I kept hearing people say "Gunther hurt his elbow, he can't fight anymore" and then I'd see or hear about him fighting at all these tournaments.

Salios wrote: i really think this is a technique issue more than anything. Trying to pull shots, stop and change direction etc are always going to put a lot of stress on joints and what holds them together. If you attack, you need to follow through or connect in order to release that energy some how, pulling back will just strain you.

Sal

I really think you're onto something here! The steel fighting we do is unarmoured, with the blows pulled and turned flat. Thinking about it, a lot of the more experienced guys use a lot of thrusts & draw cuts along with their strikes. I fight more with an emphasis on flat strikes- but since you can't safely power through the corners of shields, weapon blocks etc, I throw a lot of shots which are on funny angles, change direction, and are fast, but pulled at the last minute. Basically trying to work around shields without just pounding them out of the way. I've sort of suspected my poor steel technique is part of the issue, and already made up my mind that this year's steel fighting is going to be two-handed spear ONLY. Locally, the scene is just too new for me to get really good instruction on technique.

So improve technique, practice & exercise, ice, painkillers, and a bandage. Thanks guys, this has been very interesting so far.

~Wil

Hey Wil

My elbow has been bothering me for about 2 years now too. Sounds to me like your Doc is bang on. I had a good talk with mine and here is some of the things he said.

-Tennis elbow isn't long term debilitating. You can continue to aggravate it worse and worse and eventually you won't be able to use it but if you rest it for long enough, it will heal.

-Ice and stretching is the stuff. You can get strap-on ice packs to put on as soon as you are done fighting and they help a lot. Stretching is just a good idea in general but very helpful specifically for this.

-Tennis elbow is actually partially a wrist issue. That is where the other end of the tendon goes. Make sure to stretch the wrist too.

-Tennis racquets have padded handles to try to reduce tennis elbow. Maybe our swords should too.

Now for mine, I have tried cortizone shots into the elbow. This is all good and if it gets bad, I would do that. I would expect that yours isn't that bad yet. The cortizone makes your elbow better within a week or two to the point of throwing shots with no problems. I have had 3 now over the past 6 months. I am fighting sword and shield again with a lot less pain. I fight every week but can't do twice a week yet. It is holding up pretty well. I am icing it every time I fight now and it isn't slowing my game down anymore.

Rest- if it is an option, it would probably work. I tried using every other weapon to try to rest it and had marginal success. I found that spears were better but not great. When it was the worst, all I could use was punching axes.

If the cortizone starts to not work, I will go in for the ultrasound and laser therapy that Damon had. It isn't a surgery but instead is done with a penetrating sound or light beam. I beleive that the issue is that we make little rips in the muscle. As I understand it, these little rips scar over before they heal. If we rip them again before they are done healing, we tear the scar tissue. Then the body starts building more scar tissue on top of the existing scar tissue. Since scar tissue isn't very flexible, it becomes easy to tear and then we have a chronic problem. The ultrasound and lasers break down that scar tissue and encourage muscle growth. The cortizone is just a steroid that makes all tissue grow faster so it isn't as focused.

Damon's elbow was bad to the point of shifting gears with his left arm by reaching across the steering column. It was the laser that made all the difference there and he is back to 100%. And fighting better than he has in years.

So I would continue to fight if I was you. Pain just hurts. Take the anti-inflammatories and be happy that you aren't doing any long term damage. I am with you on the sleeping on it thing. I am very aware of how I sleep now.

A good exercise:

Take a piece of rattan about 3' long. Tie a string to the middle. The string should reach down to the floor. On the other end, tie a bottle of water. Hold your elbows next to your body with your forearms pointing straight out and keep them straight. Roll the stick using only your wrists to bring the bottle up to the stick. Then slowly start rolling the other way until the bottle has gone back down to the floor and back up. Then reverse direction again. Do this for about 5 minutes. Use a bottle that holds enough water that you really want to quit after about 3 minutes.

Hrogn

Tennis racquets have padded handles to try to reduce tennis elbow. Maybe our swords should too.

tho not sca swords. most of the weapons we use have the same padding as racqets. and we hardly ever hurt or arms.

i allways hurt my legs. : /

but as we are in very little armour its probibly because i dive around alot.

I took a hard shot on the elbow last June. It inflamed the tendons (bones were all fine), and I pretty much didn't use it for about 3 months to give it sufficient time to heal. From what I understood, that was a short time period compared to what it takes many people. If you do have such an injury, each use sets-back the healing you accomplished in between.

After a month or two, consider alternating between heat and ice. Check with your doctor or a sports therapist before adding heat though; if your injury isn't ready for heat, heat could make it worse.

Cortisone shot. Right into the elbow. Hurts like crazy, but in about 48 hours you will be pain free.

Been there. Done that. Got the doctor's bill.

BEDLAM

Yeah, but depending on the nature of the actual injury, cortizone might not be enough.

I know from whence I speak...I'm just coming back to SCA fighting after a hiatus of 8 years, during which (while playing golf, I think, although the exact nature of the injury isn't clear) I developed a chronic elbow pain. Six months of cortizone treatments and no success, after which my orthopod decided that surgery was the best course.

He was right...when he got in there, it turned out to be a "shattered" tendon. Not "torn," but actually "shattered." It took two surgeries to repair (one in April, one in September). I just started fighting again last month, following weeks of stretching and strength therapy. Fortunately it's in my shield arm, but (despite the fact that I continue to exercise it with the regimen recommended by my physical therapist) the strength is very slow to come back. My current goal is to build up my strength enough to actually make it through the battles this year at Pennsic, not to mention a full fight practice...

The key is to learn to "listen" to your elbow. I disagree with others who have posted here suggesting that you "pre-medicate." Masking your pain before the fact seems a congenitally bad idea to me: How do you know when you're pushing yourself too far? And read the bottles on that over-the-counter stuff: It's generally not recommended for long-term, frequent use.

For now, I fight for as long as I can. But when the shield arm goes limp, or I'm unable to control it properly because it's tired, I stop fighting. May not be fun, but neither were the two surgeries...

sounds like your using to much arm not wnough body to throw your shots.