Challenge of the Heart

[James B.]

However, I was getting error messages when I clicked on thumbnails for the larger versions. Not all by any means, just some. You may want to check that out.

Thanks Ursus I see the issue. Will be corrected shortly.

[James B.]

The issues are fixed. For some reason my HTML editor decided to capitalize some of the extensions to .JPG when they were .jpg. Oh well, I ran a find replace and all is good for now.

[BdeB]

Great pictures everyone. Tho it occurs to be that this event should have been called "Challange of the Heat" instead. It dropped me after the fighting was over...

[James B.]

Time to install that AC unit in your helm BdeB

[Skutai]

So is that someone getting kicked, or someone trying to trip another fighter?

As an Atlantian that's probably sharing the battlefield with the offending participant I'd like to know.

[UrsusofAnglesey]

So is that someone getting kicked, or someone trying to trip another fighter?

As an Atlantian that's probably sharing the battlefield with the offending participant I'd like to know.

Trying to give it the most generous interpretation possible, and as one who has studied that particular photo, I believe all he was trying to do was kick his opponent's shield out of the way and swing a blow under his leg. Creative? Yes. Honorable/chivalrous? That's a difficult question.

It is a potentially unsafe move, IMHO, since he stands the chance of kicking his opponent in the face grille if he misses, so I, as a retired fighter, could never imagine doing it. However, each fighter (or marshal, if they see it), must make their own interpretation.

Ursus

[Skutai]

Thanks Ursus. That was very diplomatic.

[MalcolmdeMoffat]

I would be more worried about target substitution by doing that manuver.
with one's foot that high wouldnt' that make everything below the knee a legal target area?
I wear greaves and soon sabatons also but I still wouldn't want someone swing rattan at my ankles and feet.

[Ringlancer]

I would be more worried about target substitution by doing that manuver.
with one's foot that high wouldnt' that make everything below the knee a legal target area?
I wear greaves and soon sabatons also but I still wouldn't want someone swing rattan at my ankles and feet.

Heck with ankles and feet! With a move like that, it leaves the base of your cup exposed!

[]I)ongal]

I would like to thank everyone who made our trip to Atlantia so outstanding. The hospitality we were shown was amazing (except for the heat, and I blame BdB...)

That shield-kicking maneuver used to be pretty popular in Ansteorra, but has never been considered legal in Calontir. It's funny, I was there, and don't remember that part at all.

[Nissan Maxima]

It is illegal to even touch your opponents sheild with your leg society wide.

[Kevin]

It is illegal to even touch your opponents sheild with your leg society wide.

By the letter of the law, perhaps. I wonder what the distinction would be for someone shorter than I (or someone grounding their shield) receiving a charge from me in say, a bridge battle. I'm certain I've hit my knee on someone's shield as I've tried to charge past. Certainly, I'm not striking with my knee, but I'm sure the contact has happened.

(I know that this is completely off topic.)

[Dagonet]

It is illegal to even touch your opponents sheild with your leg society wide.

Could you please cite the specific rule that says this?

[James B.]

Sir Dagonet

Here is what was posted under another thread:

3.6 Section VI - Conventions of Combat

3.6.1.10.4 Striking, pushing, or pressing an opponent's shield with a hand, weapon, or shield is allowed.

[BdeB]

(except for the heat, and I blame BdB...)

...that Damn Cuan!!!

[Dagonet]

Sir Dagonet

Here is what was posted under another thread:

3.6 Section VI - Conventions of Combat

3.6.1.10.4 Striking, pushing, or pressing an opponent's shield with a hand, weapon, or shield is allowed.

This does not expressly prohibit lifting the shield with the leg. If we are saying that "because it is not specifically named as allowed, it is disallowed" that arguement is speculative with no real basis other than personal opinion and interpretation. Even further into the obscure edges of this passage would be found an interpretation of "touching" an opponents shield with your leg, or any part of your body for that matter. You are allowed to touch your opponents body with your shield, not strike, but touch. Why then would you not be able to touch the shield with your body? Grappling is one issue, but is that really what this is? I would call it shield manipulation, which is entirely different. Can I touch my opponents shield with my shield? Can I when im on a train? In the rain? Im not trying to be snarky, but there is a line where grappling is, and I do not believe this action to be close.

grap·ple ( P ) Pronunciation Key (grpl)

A struggle or contest in which the participants attempt to clutch or grip each other.
. grap·pled, grap·pling, grap·ples
v. tr.
To seize and hold, as with a grapple.
To seize firmly, as with the hands
(From Dictionary.com)

[James B.]

Spirit of the law vs. letter of the law. While that does not out right ban kicking the shield as we are speaking of it does seem to imply it.

[Dagonet]

sorry for the edit after your post, James.

What is the difference between a kick and a lift with the foot? Which is this?

[Dagonet]

also, what is the difference between a kick and a three step charge? Both will deliver a force to it's target. Is it simply a matter of perception where kicking is somehow bad but a shoulder check is acceptable?

[Skutai]

Society rules prohibit grappling, but do they specifically prohibit nerve strikes? If I strike lightly, but still manage to cause my opponent to permanently lose the use of his arm, is that considered "excessive force?"

I imagine publishing a list of things that are allowed is quite a bit more manageable than cataloging the infinite variety of things that are prohibited.

[Dagonet]

If you strike them with your sword, then I suppose it's too bad for them. If you strike them with your shield, that would fall under striking with the shield being prohibited. In either case, I don't think the analogy applies. I see the point that you are trying to make, but I believe that it falls a bit short. Unsafe behavior is unsafe behavior and is not allowed. How is lifting a shield with your foot unsafe?

I am thuroughly unconvinced.

[DELETEMYACCOUNT]

also, what is the difference between a kick and a three step charge? Both will deliver a force to it's target. Is it simply a matter of perception where kicking is somehow bad but a shoulder check is acceptable?

It's the same thing that makes a 6 foot long sword legal but a 7 foot unpadded polearm is wrong.
This isnt a slam, but the one thing I've hated the most about the SCA for the past 20 or so years is the inconsistency. Piddly shit like this is what I mean. Just silly. I totally understand the common sense rules that they for some reason have to enforce, but stuff like this doesnt seem to make sense.

[Dagonet]

im with ya Animal. Ive fought at nearly every level of combat in the SCA over the last nine years and this new hair up someone's ass is suddenly a LAW? Not just a law, but an IMPLIED law...great. Im gonna go take up knitting or some shit where I can live a little.

[Nissan Maxima]

Don't get me wrong. With like minded friends I love to play rough. I have punched prince darius in the face once or twice and recieved similar kindness in return. I have also been yelled at enough to know where the edges of the rules are and if I shield lifted with my foot with the lack of subtlety illustrated in the picture we are discussing I would be getting talked to. Therefore I recomend increased subtlety or alternate technique. Or relaxing about it so we can all elbow each other in the neck and much hilarity will ensue.

[Dagonet]

Thanks for your recomendations!

Feel free to elbow me in the neck anytime you like, to be followed by a short trip off the field for a long time. As well, feel free to try and lift my shield with your foot any time you like. If you actually hit me with it, good for you. If not, oh well. See, the difference in your obviously purposefully rediculous comparison is that one action is legal and the other is not, so comparing them really doesn't serve any purpose, now does it?

[Halvgrimr]

Unto Your Excellancy Baron Hamish MacLeod,
A fine and true account of the fighting upon the day, alas you were not able to catch the name of the swordsman who completed Calontir's Triad. His name is Lord Mathieu Chartrain, a good man and able bodied squire to His Grace, Duke Donngal Eriksson of Calontir. And would attest that he is also a right and true gentleman of quality:
http://squires.atlantia.sca.org/chartrain.html

--Actually thats HIS LORDSHIP Mathieu!

Not only is His Lordship my squire bother but he is a fellow Huscarl of Calontir!

I ask that you treat him as such by giving him the bruises worthy of that title;)

Halv
sorry he couldnt make it;(

[Nissan Maxima]

Dagonet,
I am really not trying to be more of a smartass then usual. My point is that I do not believe that either of these moves are legal. (elbow-neck, shield-foot)

If I did either, I guarantee that the fight would be stopped and bad things would happen to my card.

And in terms of combat between us using these conventions, they have to be agreed on between both combatants as they are outside of the normal rules, just like counted blows fights.

[Dagonet]

I am going to get actual clarifiaction on this rule, because this is silly.

[Brian de Lorne]

The spirit of the law is only truly known to he who writes said law. A law written such as this leaves things totally up to the personal interpretation of each and every person who reads it. Why do you think most mundane laws are so long and drawn out? To eliminate variety in interpretation. Close the loopholes if you will.

This law in no way, shape, or form prohibits the use of the leg to lift the shield. It simply states that striking, pushing, or pressing an opponent's shield with a hand, weapon, or shield is allowed. Doesn't say anything about legs and contact with the shield.

Where I think the argument really lies is whether or not this move is honorable and chivalrous. It's fun to use in practice, I use it and have had it used on me. But my local fighters and I all agree (I believe) that at practice is where it should stay.

[Dagonet]

Oh, I think the move is rediculously silly. That does not make it illegal, unsafe, or unchivalrous...for general consumption. I really wish people wouldn't do it, but so long as they are within the rules they are free to do as they please.

[Nissan Maxima]

I propose an experiment. I will pull this silly piece of crap move on someone at the next event I go to. (I hope I don't fall on my ass). I will report here on the reaction I recieve.

[James B.]

My main issue is not moving the shield with the leg or foot as much as lifting the leg into a position to give no legal target.

[Kevin]

Oh, I think the move is rediculously silly. That does not make it illegal, unsafe, or unchivalrous...for general consumption. I really wish people wouldn't do it, but so long as they are within the rules they are free to do as they please.

Dagonet, if you do not agree that a foot or leg to the shield is implicitly illegal, then when next we meet, at lay on I'm throwing a sidekick directly to the center of your shield. If you move out of it, I'll try a roundhouse. If you hit me in the lower leg or the foot, I don't have to call it.

After all, the rules don't say I can't.

[Broadway]

when next we meet, at lay on I'm throwing a sidekick directly to the center of your shield

Wouldn't that unneccessarily expose your thigh to a shot?

[Brian de Lorne]

Oh, I think the move is rediculously silly. That does not make it illegal, unsafe, or unchivalrous...for general consumption. I really wish people wouldn't do it, but so long as they are within the rules they are free to do as they please.

Dagonet, if you do not agree that a foot or leg to the shield is implicitly illegal, then when next we meet, at lay on I'm throwing a sidekick directly to the center of your shield. If you move out of it, I'll try a roundhouse. If you hit me in the lower leg or the foot, I don't have to call it.

After all, the rules don't say I can't.

He never said you should do it. He's saying that the law doesn't say you can't do it.

Besides, having seen this move quite a few times, if you execute it so poorly as to kick someone in the face, you probably shouldn't be on the field anyway. The most unsafe aspects of this move are the top of the legged opponents shield hitting him in the helmet, or him getting stepped on if the attacker steps in wrong. It's no more unsafe than most of what we do.

That and getting hit in the armpit sometimes really stings.

But we all do agree, it shouldn't be done.