Challenge of the Heart

[Tascius]

This blow seems to be getting a huge amount of attention. Fine, lets not make a rule or try to imply a rule from it.
I think nothing unsafe has happened here. Please Please do not take away from the sport by adding more rules that can be twisted by more of the same rules bending we see as it is.
I once ran into a fighter in the West kingdom who defended himself by a guard position that but his forearm over his head such that the left side of his helm was protected by his sword, his helm top by the forearm and his right side by his bicep. When I hit his arm I was told that intentionally hitting an arm was considered unchivalrous in the West Kingdom. His arm framed his head like a picture frame. I informed him "Sorry good Sir but it was not my intention to hit your arm, I was aiming for your head." The point of the story is this fighter had developed a stance based upon the idea of arm hunting being considered unchiv. in his kingdom. He had substituted a "Cheesy" target for a legitamate one (by the conventions of his area, by no means do I consider a arm strike cheesy).

If safety is not an issue lets leave well enough alone. As to target substitution, the lifting leg is under a shield, not really a safety issue. If the leg is hit then it should be taken even if below the knee as the fighter had placed the target in a area normally safe to hit, no new rule needed.

Tascius

[jester]

Sir Dagonet

Here is what was posted under another thread:

3.6 Section VI - Conventions of Combat

3.6.1.10.4 Striking, pushing, or pressing an opponent's shield with a hand, weapon, or shield is allowed.

This rule contradicts Society level rulings on the matter (and it wouldn't be the first time that Atlantian rules governing combat did so).

http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/com ... ndbook.pdf
IV. THE USE OF WEAPONS AND SHIELDS
3. Wrestling with or grappling the opponent, to include grasping the opponent’s torso, limbs, shield, or weapon’s striking surface, blade, or head is prohibited.

The SEM clarified this rule on August 4, 2003.

I just got done telling the Rapier community about this, so I guess this is timely.

I believe that a common misconception persists about grappling; to wit, it only consists of "grabbing". Now, I know that the Society level rules are not very explicit but I'm about to fix that.

Grappling is any intentional or overt contact of hands/feet/appendages to the other fighter’s person. Pushing, slapping, tripping, knee leverages and falling on, head butting, etc., all apply. Incidental contact, during a charge for example, is not the same thing and is going to happen.

So the grappling rule prohibits grappling the opponent's person (to include his shield) and the clarification makes it clear that grappling is any intentional contact with the hands or, more germane to this particular instance, the feet or appendages.

Sorry, that fighter executed a clever, safe, and historically documented technique. But it ain't legal.

Just as an aside, there is no target substitution rule at the Society level. That is a custom that some kingdoms have chosen to make law. My kingdom does not have a law to this effect but we tend to follow the custom (or did when I was still actively fighting).

[Kevin]

Tash, I respectfully disagree. I think that the loophole that exists in lifting/kicking an opponent's shield while he's legged is the same loophole that allows me to use eastern martial arts kicks against an opponent's shield.

I think the rule should be amended to say that "other methods of contacting an opponent's shield are phohibited".

What "should" or "shouldn't" be done appears to have no sway over some fighters (reference the photo) and apparently honor can't always be counted on to do the right thing. I hate having to legislate chivalry myself, but where it can be done subtly, we might as well. Especially if Sir Falcone thinks this was an "honest mistake", we should use the vehicle of the conventions of combat to instruct newer fighters who don't want to be dishonorable by a similar mistake.

[Kevin]

3.6 Section VI - Conventions of Combat

3.6.1.10.4 Striking, pushing, or pressing an opponent's shield with a hand, weapon, or shield is allowed.

This rule contradicts Society level rulings on the matter (and it wouldn't be the first time that Atlantian rules governing combat did so).

http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/com ... ndbook.pdf
IV. THE USE OF WEAPONS AND SHIELDS
3. Wrestling with or grappling the opponent, to include grasping the opponent’s torso, limbs, shield, or weapon’s striking surface, blade, or head is prohibited.

The SEM clarified this rule on August 4, 2003.

I just got done telling the Rapier community about this, so I guess this is timely.

I believe that a common misconception persists about grappling; to wit, it only consists of "grabbing". Now, I know that the Society level rules are not very explicit but I'm about to fix that.

Grappling is any intentional or overt contact of hands/feet/appendages to the other fighter’s person. Pushing, slapping, tripping, knee leverages and falling on, head butting, etc., all apply. Incidental contact, during a charge for example, is not the same thing and is going to happen.

So the grappling rule prohibits grappling the opponent's person (to include his shield) and the clarification makes it clear that grappling is any intentional contact with the hands or, more germane to this particular instance, the feet or appendages.

Ah, the wonders of the English language. The marshalls make a clear distinction between a person's shield and their person. So grasping a shield is not legal - Atlantia agrees with that. Overt contact on a shield is not grappling - the SM's clarification addressed the person, not the shield. Atlantia spells out what may be done with the shield as opposed to the person - pushing, pressing, striking.

Sorry, that fighter executed a clever, safe, and historically documented technique. But it ain't legal.

That's a completely different can of worms. I can think of all sorts of historically documented techniques that are safe (disarms, anyone?) that aren't allowed.

There we come full circle to the SCA's rules needing to be rewritten for combat.

[jester]

Sorry, that fighter executed a clever, safe, and historically documented technique. But it ain't legal.

That's a completely different can of worms. I can think of all sorts of historically documented techniques that are safe (disarms, anyone?) that aren't allowed.

There we come full circle to the SCA's rules needing to be rewritten for combat.

Only 17 more days until the new Marshals Handbook is presented to the BoD.

[Dagonet]

Well, Kevin saved me the trouble of making the distinction between the shield and the person...Thanks Kevin!

As far as Atlantia's rule stating what can and cannot be done to the shield...i don't like it. The term "implicitly prohibited" has been thrown around. I don't like implied things...particularly rules.

My biggest beef here is what IS the big problem with body contact to the shield? How is it unsafe? How is it unchivalrous? How is it anything other than a means of shield manipulation? How is it somehow safe for a 350 pound fella to take three running steps and slam into me, but it is somehow not ok for me to bump a shield with my knee or my elbow? Seriously...tell me...I'm confused on this one big time.

I swear...every day some puss tries harder to make this less of an activity of skill and more of a "PC NO BRUISES NO SWEAT NO EFFORT EVERYONE WINS" kind of pansy game. The prospect really sickens me.

I was raised in the SCA to believe that all knights and all fighters should strive to be proud and fierce and worthy. Tell me how this petty wet panties crap is any of those?

Unsafe is unsafe. Pussy is pussy. I guess we all have our own line between those though.

[Tascius]

You just have to ask yourself, do rules serve you or do you serve the rules. Rules exist to make the framework of our fighting society. The spirit of these rules is to make for a realistic degree of safety from severe injury. Bruises and such however are the coinage of our art. If SCA fighting was totally safe it would be a Romper Room activity.
Having seen the last few postings I have to agree that the strike under discussion does not fit within the exact letter of a tangeled code of rules. Those rules were put forth for safety reasons. That is the spirit of the rules. Honestly, how likely is it that someone is hurt by this blow?

As for kicking my shield Kevin, please do! Your tough to kill. I'd welcome such a target! If you want to leave an impression just shield bash my shield. I assure you it will be far more effective than a kick.

I spent some time fighting with the Tuchux and was flipped, wrestled, kicked, hit below the knee and hit from behind on a event by event basis.
Did alot of the same in return. (Duron of the Hillcats once hip threw me, I was completely airborn at about chest level, then I saw stars. I still laugh at and cherish that memory!) Can't think of any real injuries from any of that.
Tascius

[RMorgenstern]

OK, this appears to be getting a little out of hand....

The marshallate is concerned with safety. As I see it, the maneuver is in a gray area, but not explicitly illegal. His foot is no where near his face while executed. If he had kicked him in the face, I would have his card and we would be talking about long-term sanctions. But that is not the case here. I find it an utterly absurd maneuver and worthy of ridicule, but I'm not going to pull his card for it. The fighter has ways to escape the maneuver and punish the person for their actions.

And if you are looking for the new SCA Handbook to solve all of the world's problems, get used to disappointment. There will always be gray areas. I would strongly oppose defining every little nth degree rule. If it were up to me the most important rule would consist of 'Don't be Stupid'. Let's apply some common sense and remember this is a game. A competitive one, but a game none the less.

- Roland, Deputy Earl Marshal for Armored Combat, Atlantia
armored@atlantia.sca.org

[DWolfhunter]

I was not actually discussing the "between the legs shot" when I was commenting earlier. I WAS concerned at the appearence of the subject's shield clearly pinning an opponent's sword arm. I was also concerned regarding the fights the subject had with HG Dongall and HRM Tristram. Where there was an impression that both gentles were extremely annoyed at and ,dismissive of, the subject when that particular bout was over. The "between the legs" shot is cheesy and stupid. But not the reason I was so dismayed.
Let me reiterate that: other than this situation, the event was a massive success. Both for the melee teams and for the event goers as a whole. The fighting was high caliber and the feast was awesome. Dun Carraig is a nice place to visit...they are good hosts and fine combattants.

Baron Hamish

[DWolfhunter]

I was not actually discussing the "between the legs shot" when I was commenting earlier. I WAS concerned at the appearence of the subject's shield clearly pinning an opponent's sword arm. I was also concerned regarding the fights the subject had with HG Dongall and HRM Tristram. Where there was an impression that both gentles were extremely annoyed at and ,dismissive of, the subject when that particular bout was over. The "between the legs" shot is cheesy and stupid. But not the reason I was so dismayed.
Let me reiterate that: other than this situation, the event was a massive success. Both for the melee teams and for the event goers as a whole. The fighting was high caliber and the feast was awesome. Dun Carraig is a nice place to visit...they are good hosts and fine combattants.

Baron Hamish