The Armour Archive

That's right.... I said the word. There is apparently a text from 1509 that discusses the use of the Andalusian adarga. So, while it's too early to say for sure (translation probably won't be out for another couple of years), there may be evidence for the use of this weapon in Medieval Europe.

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow. I may have to make another one now! Mine broke

can you cite the text?

regards
logan

jester wrote:That's right.... I said the word. There is apparently a text from 1509 that discusses the use of the Andalusian adarga. So, while it's too early to say for sure (translation probably won't be out for another couple of years), there may be evidence for the use of this weapon in Medieval Europe.

also, i havent done any real deep research on the adarga but a quick glance through one of my arms and armor book only shows a small shield with what appears to be a rod for a grip running from one edge to the other. most of them are heart shaped but none of them have any projections. another fast search on the internet came up with the exact same depictions with two exceptions, both were on fantasy rpg sites showing shields with spiked protrusions on the top and bottom (one has a small spike coming from the center of the shield as well). can anyone cite some better examples?

thanks
logan

dukelogan wrote:can you cite the text?

regards
logan

jester wrote:That's right.... I said the word. There is apparently a text from 1509 that discusses the use of the Andalusian adarga. So, while it's too early to say for sure (translation probably won't be out for another couple of years), there may be evidence for the use of this weapon in Medieval Europe.

I cannot cite the text, this is in reference to a casual reference. It may be a mini-treatise on using the ardaga in combat, it may be nothing more than an illustration of an ardaga appearing in text that one researcher characterized as "notes". If you run into Sir Strykar (being fairly close to his neck of the woods) you might ask him about it (the Pietro Monte translation). For my part I'll wait until the translation is done.

Massive thrusting shields are well documented in Swabian and Frankish duelling traditions from the 15th Century, although only in judicial combat. Documentation for the adarga makes it a weapon for skirmishers in wartime. I doubt that anyone is going to find these types of shields being used in deeds of arms.

jester wrote:

dukelogan wrote:can you cite the text?

regards
logan

jester wrote:That's right.... I said the word. There is apparently a text from 1509 that discusses the use of the Andalusian adarga. So, while it's too early to say for sure (translation probably won't be out for another couple of years), there may be evidence for the use of this weapon in Medieval Europe.

I cannot cite the text, this is in reference to a casual reference. It may be a mini-treatise on using the ardaga in combat, it may be nothing more than an illustration of an ardaga appearing in text that one researcher characterized as "notes". If you run into Sir Strykar (being fairly close to his neck of the woods) you might ask him about it (the Pietro Monte translation). For my part I'll wait until the translation is done.

Massive thrusting shields are well documented in Swabian and Frankish duelling traditions from the 15th Century, although only in judicial combat. Documentation for the adarga makes it a weapon for skirmishers in wartime. I doubt that anyone is going to find these types of shields being used in deeds of arms.

Its the adarga-the leather shield of el Andalus, which was assumed by the Spanish, not the fanciful one. Typically used by people riding gineta style.

The translation will take a real long time, but we also have ?the Spanish original as well. Pietro Monte's work contains sections on the use of several different types of shields.

Steve

I now feel right with the world. One full revolution has taken place and now the argument begins the circle of life again.

Peace,
Odo

jester wrote:That's right.... I said the word. There is apparently a text from 1509 that discusses the use of the Andalusian adarga. So, while it's too early to say for sure (translation probably won't be out for another couple of years), there may be evidence for the use of this weapon in Medieval Europe.

Steve Hick wrote:
Its the adarga-the leather shield of el Andalus, which was assumed by the Spanish, not the fanciful one. Typically used by people riding gineta style.

The translation will take a real long time, but we also have ?the Spanish original as well. Pietro Monte's work contains sections on the use of several different types of shields.

Steve

Speak his name and he appears! Hi Strykar.

It's been great to see the work you are doing in print. I still have the copy of that giant tome of xeroxes you started with. Sure miss working out the details in your back yard

Yo

Sooooooo... I have to ask what does an adarga have to do with the madu?

From a fighting point they work but can be beaten if you know how to fight them. From a historical point I hate to see those things on the field. I just don't like them.

Vebrand

Vebrand wrote:Sooooooo... I have to ask what does an adarga have to do with the madu?

From a fighting point they work but can be beaten if you know how to fight them. From a historical point I hate to see those things on the field. I just don't like them.

Vebrand

But they are fun. And that is why we are here, right?

Odo the stirrerer

Vebrand wrote:Sooooooo... I have to ask what does an adarga have to do with the madu?

Vebrand

They are both small shields with thrusting tips top and bottom. So when confronted with evidence that the madu was atypical (unknown) on the European battlefield some users will call their weapon an ardaga and continue using it.

"But they are fun. And that is why we are here, right? Twisted Evil"




Have that man flogged



SOooo we have an obscure 16th century reference to a kinda similar weapon?


Soooooo why are all these pre period celts carrying one????

Better ask first why the pre period celts are using o dachi or heater shields. Or why vikings are using polearms. If one isnt acceptable then the other surely isnt.
Remember when we were kids and we'd pour all of what was left of all the cereal boxes into one box? SCA fighting is a lot like that. You're gonna get a mix. Stop bitching for chrissakes and have fun.
Geeze I give up on some of these people. It's a lot bigger sandbox than you can be king of. Just sayin.

For what it's worth, there's no such thing as "pre-period" when it comes to the SCA.

That is why I fight in a bascinet with a bargrill, a center grip oval with my transitional +5 to dexterity studded leather and a madu. Just to piss people off.

Odo

I've never once heard of an adarga with thrusting projections. Got a reference?

can somebody translate the Italian on this webpage for the terms Adarga and Madu?

http://www.glossari.it/glossarioarmibianche.html

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v95/ratangei/Adaga.jpg[/img]
I have this cool book, glossary of arms and armor or something, I cant find it, it's packed for the move. But under ADAGA this is kinda what the picture was. More ornate, but this is a quick paint sketch because I couldnt find the book to scan the page. There was also the shield adaga thingy, but this weapon is what caught my eye. I wanna make a rattan version of this. Screw madus' this one would kick ASS! >:)

" For what it's worth, there's no such thing as "pre-period" when it comes to the SCA"

And thats why we have _cave men_ at Pennsic.

Noone had the balls to say "no you can't be a Hittite/ Aztec/ Eskimo ect"

There was a period, but it was inconvienent to people who wanted to play Classical personas in a Medieval orginization.

Guess the extra money was more important.

Kevin wrote:For what it's worth, there's no such thing as "pre-period" when it comes to the SCA.

Kevin,

Really... Tell me what pre-historic man has to do with the Middle ages or Medieval Europe....

Stacy

Translated by Bablefish and me.

Adarga - Arm that seems was used from in the 1400 from the Arabs; blade was formed from one shield with one fixture perpendicularly on it and from the grip formed from two spears contrapposte.

Not sure what is meant by contrapposte.

Stacy

Russ Mitchell wrote:I've never once heard of an adarga with thrusting projections. Got a reference?

No. I'm still looking. Animal posted the constructed weapon picture that I have seen referred to, but never by period sources. I suspect that the period references I recall reading (years ago) were referring to the combination of the adarga and javelins. The references were talking about the almoghavars, which is what I was researching at the time.

Adarga is the word "Shield" translated from Arabic/Moorish. At some point someone in Spain named that weird madu-like, front spiked, buckler contraption "Adarga" and the name "stuck."

Animal's pic is pretty close except that the front spike comes out of the center of a buckler. But, if I recall, the weapon is not held like a buckler, it is held like a staff.

B

Animal Weretiger wrote:[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v95/ratangei/Adaga.jpg[/img]
I have this cool book, glossary of arms and armor or something, I cant find it, it's packed for the move. But under ADAGA this is kinda what the picture was. More ornate, but this is a quick paint sketch because I couldnt find the book to scan the page. There was also the shield adaga thingy, but this weapon is what caught my eye. I wanna make a rattan version of this. Screw madus' this one would kick ASS! >:)

I have used a weapon similar to this many years ago. In no uncertain terms, this was the most efficient killer of pole weapons around. The thrusting tip coming out of the shield portion could be used to control and pin the pole weapon, leaving the wielder extremely vulnerable.

The only problem is that it makes for an "offensive" shield, which is illegal in the SCA. Of course you could play with it at your practice or outside of the SCA's domain.

Today I use a short spear with only one thrusting tip. It looks the same and fights the same, but is called a spear instead of a madu.

Odo

Odo wrote:The only problem is that it makes for an "offensive" shield, which is illegal in the SCA. Of course you could play with it at your practice or outside of the SCA's domain.
Odo

Actually, offensive shields are not banned by the Society level rules. They simply state that offensive shields must be approved on a case by case basis. Some Kingdoms ban them.

I dont recall a buckler on this weapon but I believe you. If I ever get around to making one I wont use the buckler bit though. I think this one would be fine all on it's own. I just gotta figure out how to put a piece of rattan coming off the front like that.

make a basket hilt thats "madueable" weld a piece of 2 inch pipe about 2or 3 inches long on it drill 2 holes through the pipe and rattan for pins or use a rubber fernco fitting for pipe sold at depot...