So how many types of madus' are there?

[dukelogan]

of course not. i hope to finally get all the plans in pdf format and on line. ahhhh the dreams..... but one day i will.

regards and thanks

logan

Nice work logan. All of your camp furniture is pretty cool. I'm sure it goes a long way in creating an awesome ambience.

Odo

ps> mind if I steal a few of the designs?

[Cet]

When it comes to cameras vs coleman chairs I think you have to consider whether there are appropriate alternatives or not. There are period alternatives to coleman chairs and e-z ups but none for cameras. This is one consideration I'd use when "drawing the line"

[justus]

Wow, who knew that alternate weapons forms could raise such ire?

Well actually I do, but I still don't really understand the basic problem.

As mentioned above I’ve been a long time sword and axe fighter. About 80% of the time folks refer to it incorrectly as a Madu, so I’m also know as a sword and madu fighter.

The weapon I fight with in my left hand is actually a berdysh, which is a Russo-Slavic weapon. Berdysh (pronounced Bar-deesh) simply means “Bearded Axe, or Broad Axeâ€Â

[dukelogan]

hmmm, to date i dont think i have ever been bested by a madu or whatever styled fighter. and, to date, i dont think i have ever lost a fight with my one pointed spear and sword fight against another dual weapon fighter. ever.

i still think we should worry about fighting with the weapons used in the middle ages in europe during tournies. well, because thats what the charter says. and rules are.... well im sure animal can correct me on this part now......

logan

[justus]

hmmm, to date i dont think i have ever been bested by a madu or whatever styled fighter. and, to date, i dont think i have ever lost a fight with my one pointed spear and sword fight against another dual weapon fighter. ever.

i still think we should worry about fighting with the weapons used in the middle ages in europe during tournies. well, because thats what the charter says. and rules are.... well im sure animal can correct me on this part now......

logan

Couple of things your Grace,

One you don't get bested very often at all, regardless of what you fight with or what your opponent brings to the field. So there

Two, they fought with some really crazy stuff "in the middle ages in Europe during tourneys." everything from sword and shield, to spears, to axes, to six foot pavieses with a rock in a bag.


Justus

[DELETEMYACCOUNT]

logan I'm not interested in correcting you. Suffice to say based on everything I've ever seen from you I want nothing to do with you.

[dukelogan]

well thank you for the compliment. im not sure i desrve that much but i wont argue.

i also think we should not worry about the wierd but lets look at the norm. freaks are freaks and there is a reason why things that are freakish have never, ever, been the norm.

and for those that would dare get into this with me please, please, feel free to contact me privately. by all means.....


regards
logan

hmmm, to date i dont think i have ever been bested by a madu or whatever styled fighter. and, to date, i dont think i have ever lost a fight with my one pointed spear and sword fight against another dual weapon fighter. ever.

i still think we should worry about fighting with the weapons used in the middle ages in europe during tournies. well, because thats what the charter says. and rules are.... well im sure animal can correct me on this part now......

logan

Couple of things your Grace,

One you don't get bested very often at all, regardless of what you fight with or what your opponent brings to the field. So there

Two, they fought with some really crazy stuff "in the middle ages in Europe during tourneys." everything from sword and shield, to spears, to axes, to six foot pavieses with a rock in a bag.


Justus

[Maeryk]

Unfortunately to a lot of people, it is just a fight club. These are the people fighting in the minimal armor, plastic stuff to get an edge.

Just to drag out an argument.. there are those who wear cleats, and claim they are "like hobnails". No, they arent. They are cleats. They are modern sports equipment. They aint medieval, and never will be.

Maeryk

[DELETEMYACCOUNT]

I wear cleats. I dont claim they're like hobnails. I've had shoes with hobnails and I never made that association. I wear my cleats when I fight on grass because of a foot drop I have. Residual paralysis and all that. When I walk on grass without them my ankle rolls all over and it's not only painful for me but potentially very harmful. My ankle can roll in an instant. I tried my ass off to make covers for them to simulate the Mongol boots but the closest I've been able to come is to put the uppers on over top and hope for the best.
The podiatrist I'm seeing here is telling me about an AFO with dorsal flexion. Hopefully this will give me the support I need that I can go without the cleats. I've also been in touch with Puppy from NYC mongol about a pair of actual made in Mongolia pair of boots made to fit my diabetic inserts. If this comes together it'll be a lot more authentic and improve my kit no end.

[dukelogan]

the sca is not, has never been, and i think never should be a strict living history recreation society.

that said, the sca for what it is only asks that your footwear appear to be medieval. nothing more. cleats, properly covered, meet that demand and should be tastefully done.

regards
logan

Unfortunately to a lot of people, it is just a fight club. These are the people fighting in the minimal armor, plastic stuff to get an edge.

Just to drag out an argument.. there are those who wear cleats, and claim they are "like hobnails". No, they arent. They are cleats. They are modern sports equipment. They aint medieval, and never will be.

Maeryk

[St. George]

Two, they fought with some really crazy stuff "in the middle ages in Europe during tourneys." everything from sword and shield, to spears, to axes, to six foot pavieses with a rock in a bag.

Justus

Like many things in the SCA, the number of times that we see odd things appear at events far outnumbers the number of times that they actually appeared in period. Such things were oddities even back then, yet because someone can document them having happened once. we see all sorts of people using them pretty much every tournament.

For example, there are few extant examples of segmented 14th century chestplates, yet they are rampant in the SCA- I would bet that there are more currently in existence than there were in period. Likewise, just because you can find an example or two of some weird weapons form doesn't mean that they were done all the time- they were exceptions, yet people will still decide to do them in disproportionate numbers.

Justus wrote: "It was mentioned earlier that it is selfish to fight this way because it is only fun for the “Madu Fighterâ€Â

[Alcyoneus]

2) I can pretty much use the same pattern to beat them (leg arm head), 3) they almost always attack with the same patterns

I'm sensing a pattern here.

The surviving manuals don't indicate much S&S combat, either.

[justus]

Help me out here,

I wrote: "The comment seemed to imply that the alternate weapons fighter could be beat easily and didn’t provide much challenge."

You replied that “Then you were reading something into it that I didn't write.â€Â

[Kaliban]

WEll if the sca allowed Peasant's flails sword an sheild would no longer be per say ruling the feild .. but i know they are not allowed ..

I really do not beleive in useing a swrod an sheild ..its to me hiding behind something .. NOT TRYING to insult anyone just my opinion .. i have feinds who do s&b an more power to them its what they like an if thats what you like go for it .. makes the battle feild more interesting an its all about haveing fun and i am one of those stick jocks who fights for sport but also to have fun ..

[chow]

I'm all about trying to move more and more towards a "look" that creates a more attractive and realistic illusion to the recreational activity that we participate in. I find that it is up to me to live up to my potential and set a good example for others as much as my finances, skill, and time will allow. A possitive rolemodel who encourages others to achieve helps the whole to grow. Sometimes we all need a little shove to remind us not to become complacent and lazy in our endevers. I may not always agree with those who are on the edges of a debate, but i do appriciate their need to keep us thinking, testing, and growing. We all mature at differnt rates.
I find that someone who is skilled in a weapons form is skilled in a weapons form. If it is unussual or unorthidox it is just anouther puzzle or test for me to recognize and adjust to. If I fail to adjust and learn to deal with that style, form, or person than I just don't measure up. My Willy is not going to get any bigger or smaller from the outcome of any bout. I know that there are alot of people I am never going to lay stick on much less beat no matter what weapons form thy or I use.
There are a fair number of people who will try something unorthidox to gain an edge or makeup for some lack of training or skill. Through my own experiance nothing will take the place of training, practice, and regularly testing your abilities and learning new things from other people. there is always more "homework".That being said, many times people need to experiment with new and differnt things and test their own creativity, desire, and to experiance that thing. Some people's own body type, personallity, and persona limit or expand their choice in weapons and forms. It is said that a Japanese persona with a shield is trying to live the fight as a transvestite. I tried that. Eeewww. If you don't want to have a bout with me becausee of my persona or weapons choice thats fine with me. Syr Justice or someone else will put the hurtin burnin love on me and make me think and improve myself.

[Wilhelm Schwartze Leopard]

I am so far still loving the discussion, even when it tends to go slightly off topic. I will say this though, this may not be my forum but it is my question and I ask that no personal attacks here! I can't stand when a lively debate turns to a I hate you stupidity, if I didn't want to hear different opinions I wouldn't have posted so be civil! Now off my high horse and back to the fray.

Yay Justus! having been trounced personally by him, I will also say they where fun fights. I also enjoy fighting weapon diversity, I really enjoy fighting other sword and blocking type weapon people, it makes for an intresting chess match. I don't find myself at an unfair advantage over anybody, I am as successful as I always been which is so so, but I always have fun and my opponents have also. My favorite fighting is melee/war which I have more success in because I am a good team player, I usually fight axe and shield, and I take orders well and know how to "stay the line" (was an NCO in the US Army for 14 of my twenty years, so even in the SCA I can't escape the NCO mentality). I also agree that people in the SCA should try thier best to keep up the ambience and now like usual I will either drift off into pointless missives unless I end this post, so later,

Wilhelm

[Sir Brendan TT]

If the stars aligned correctly, and I win another Crown, then I might ban Madus. I would certainly not allow them in Crown Tourney. I would also like to see a point where everyone entering Crown has to present a reference picture(s) for their armor, but I would try and be reasonable on this point- but not allow fantasy armors, or viking/samurai etc combinations. I think that appearance is important and that a King should lead the way in that area.

Alaric

PS- IIRC, In Caid, Madus like Gunnar's axe thing were banned if they had a basket hilt on them. Someone (not me) felt that the punching motion with your hand right next to the axe head was too much like a punch dagger.

Horray for this reigm to come if stars just make up their minds!

A tourney were all that enters with tha weponform of his period and nation.
No more vikings with greatswords och two sword (that would be axe and swotd) all landsknechts with polreapons or greatswords, 122-12;th century knight s figting small narrow shields with sword and spartns nked with shield, spear and short sword.

Can't wait to see what the old Kelts/picts bring to the fun!

It would be real fint to watch and partcipate!

BTT

[Vitus von Atzinger]

"I would bet that there are more currently in existence than there were in period."

No way of knowing. There may have only been five, or 50,000 made in a 200 year period. There may have been many strange things out there on medieval battlefields, or relatively few interesting abberations. Can't know.

[blackbow]

hmmm, to date i dont think i have ever been bested by a madu or whatever styled fighter. and, to date, i dont think i have ever lost a fight with my one pointed spear and sword fight against another dual weapon fighter. ever.

logan

Did too. Although it wasn't in a tourney.

Jonathan Blackbow

[dukelogan]

i never get bested in practice jonathan simply because im not competing. i do fail in practice often, hopefully that keeps my being bested in when i compete to a minimum. its the gift my training partners give to me to show me mistakes in practice so that i wont make them when im giving everything ive got.

so thanks man! your such a giver!

regards
logan

hmmm, to date i dont think i have ever been bested by a madu or whatever styled fighter. and, to date, i dont think i have ever lost a fight with my one pointed spear and sword fight against another dual weapon fighter. ever.

logan

Did too. Although it wasn't in a tourney.

Jonathan Blackbow

[blackbow]

I'll do my best to return the favor one day, Yer Ducalness.

JB

i never get bested in practice jonathan simply because im not competing. i do fail in practice often, hopefully that keeps my being bested in when i compete to a minimum. its the gift my training partners give to me to show me mistakes in practice so that i wont make them when im giving everything ive got.

so thanks man! your such a giver!

regards
logan

hmmm, to date i dont think i have ever been bested by a madu or whatever styled fighter. and, to date, i dont think i have ever lost a fight with my one pointed spear and sword fight against another dual weapon fighter. ever.

logan

Did too. Although it wasn't in a tourney.

Jonathan Blackbow

[Malachiuri]

Animal,

Check out screw in golf spikes. There are many med to hard plastic spike assemblies that can be attached to any footware.

Sir William von Kurnic from Calontir has used them for years on his period boots and shoes.

A quick search on the major sporting goods stores should find ya what you need.

[DELETEMYACCOUNT]

You ROCK!!! I never woulda thought of that in a million years!!! Thank you!

[Roibeard MacNeill]

Greetings unto all, Titled and Non,
I have been looking at this thread with great care for I am in the process of building an "more accurate" Madu to fight with. This by no means is a primary weapon of mine but a mere addition to my arsenal as I am interested in combat with all weapon styles and forms. Everyone has valid points...Madus are a distinct weapon with rather distinct characteristics. A short spear is NOT a madu, neither is an axe with a butt spike. These misnomers tend to cause issues (as has been seen here). Also, I can agree to an extent with His Grace Alaric when he describes the weapon and those who fight with it as "Boring". Those that are boring simply do not know what they have in their hands and the particular idiosyncrasies that are inherent when fighting with such a weapon. That being said, EVERY weapon that is used in the SCA can be humdrum at one point or another. In my honest opinion, the true test of a combatant is to expand one's prowess with many weapons and styles in order to make oneself more well-rounded in this most peculiar of Martial Arts. But this prowess can only be put to its truest test when others are willing to help that person in this experimentation by giving them challenge and advice, not by belittling their choices in weapon or combat style. Such is the evolution of SCA combat that I have witnessed in the nearly 20 years I have partaken of this, The Dream, and 17 kingdoms I have both visited and lived in.
My sincerest apologies for being long-winded but I have always been adamant in the symbiotic relationship between all of us who don armour and brave the field of combat. We are ALL here to learn and teach. Old fighters to New Fighters, Knights to Squires, and Belted to unbelted.
This all being said, attached is a picture of the Madu I am working on. I have been consulting both my kingdom earl marshal but the Society Marshal as well on its shape and possible use and so far there has been no objection. I did the bends at Pennsic and solicited commentary from combatants, including Knights, which I respect for their sound advice and experience. Now, it is still unfinished as I have yet to attach the buckler. The design was taken from a Madu that was made with the curved antlers of an Ibex and the points were protruding outward facing the front. I have found its shape to be quite challenging to maneuver and does call for a certain level of skill, both from me (a work in progress) and my fellow opponent.
Opinions and comments are most welcome.

In Service to the Dream,
Rabhairt MacNeill
Clan Marshin Fayne
Kingdom of Gleann Abhann (boy does it feel good to FINALLY say that!) expatriated in the East Kingdom.

[Brian de Lorne]

Looking at the angle of the thrusting tips in relation to where you wield the weapon, can you honestly give a telling blow with that? You'd have to have seriously strong wrists I would think.....

I could see it possibly with the top thrusting tip, but not the bottom. It would be like punching with your sword, only at the tip where it's hard to get any force, and not close to the hilt where there's less "torque" on the weapon.

[Roibeard MacNeill]

Good morrow, Brian,
Thank you for your comment. At first I thought the exact same thing but then I started to disengage myself from what would be normal Madu combat convention and began applying my style of combat into it. The results, in some tests, are that I get an excellent blow from the bottom tip and, depending on the angle from which I throw the blow and how I move my body with it, a rather powerful thrust from the top tip as well.
I do have very strongs wrists...who knew Flamenco would come in handy in combat?! (thanks Mom).

In service,

Rabhairt

[Brian de Lorne]

Good deal. Good luck with your new weapon!

[Duke Gunnar]

Well, here I am on a slow day at work surfing the web and I find myself being discussed online. How flattering . First I would like to apologise to Duke Odo if I have ever struck him with the buckler. I find that odd since I rarely strike with the blade of the ax but if I have, I am truly sorry. His Grace is also correct when he states that I do not strike very hard with it. There have been a very few exceptions but I generally only use the ax head for a face shots when my opponent closes with me. We tend to use a lighter shot to the face in Trimaris. I could strike you harder in the future if you would like Your Grace . I would like to correct one point. The ax head is not "floppy". It stays in position quite well and I have used it on occasion to pull shieldmen over when attacking a shield wall. I don't think that would be possible if it were "floppy". I will admit it is ugly, but having used it for many years now I am rather attached to it. I had a nicer looking one, but then the rules were changed so that my ax was 6" to short for me to use with a but spike. When I made the replacement ax I made the blade longer specificly to help avoid striking people with the buckler. This resulted in the uglier ax I have today.

I am somewhat entertained by people who complain about this stlye not being period. So far, the people who have discussed this with me refuse to give up their indestructable shields. They will also continue to fight from there knees after having there leg hacked off. Wouldn't it be much more period for them to lie on the ground and scream after losing their leg? I am likewise entertained by people who tell me why I fight with the afore mentioned style. For those that want to know it's mostly because I found the static style of sword and shield boring. I much prefer the more mobile style of using two weapons.

Lets face it. SCA combat is a sport. It is set with a cool historical background. It also espouses a great set of values. It is this that elevates SCA combat far above other sports in my eyes. It is however, still a sport. It is not period reenactment. There are organizations that do that. The SCA is not one of them. If you doubt that we could begin by discussing the use of the title "Lord" and go on from there.

The SCA is supposed to be inclusive. How can someone in the SCA justify condeming others for being different? The attitude of "these people don't play like I do so they have to go" just baffles me. How would you feel if the SCA was outlawed for being different? Grown men who run around in funny clothes, hitting people with sticks, should not make fun of others because they don't wear the same funny clothes. Yes, there are rules. The rule says you have to make an "attempt" at pre 17th century clothing. There you go. If you want an organization that requires more that's fine. I'm sure you can find one. It's just not the SCA. I think we would be better served by putting more effort into living by the knightly virtues, and being examples of chivalric behavior than in just trying to look like knights.

These are my thoughts on the subject. I'm new to this forum. I've been around the SCA for a couple of decades. I'm a Knight and a Duke. I don't know if that qualifies me as an expert or not .

[Kaliban]

your my friend

[Asbjorn Johansen]

Madu’s and the like fall into the challenges that occur because we rarely tie our combat’s to specific instances of combat of combat from history, such as a tourney from 14th century France or a holmgang in 10th century Iceland. At least for instance of individual combat as opposed to melee, when weighed against the challenge of securing an event site and organizing the event, providing weapons and an event specific set of rules is not that difficult. Even if folks armour doesn’t match, just by using a few rules tweaks and the correct weapons you can get a vastly different feel of combat. (See the different descriptions of my sword and buckler combats and judicial duels that I run at Pennsic at www.historiccombat.org).

I am somewhat entertained by people who complain about this stlye not being period. So far, the people who have discussed this with me refuse to give up their indestructable shields.

There are many accounts of shields that fell apart in combat. There are also many accounts of shields that lasted through combat and may have been reused in later combats. It depends on the time, place, shield used, etc. I’d love to folks go to the effort of making destructible shields.

They will also continue to fight from there knees after having there leg hacked off.

Some of us don’t. Many would love to see this rule go away and fight to counted blows or some other system to model receiving a leg wound.


Wouldn't it be much more period for them to lie on the ground and scream after losing their leg? I am likewise entertained by people who tell me why I fight with the afore mentioned style. For those that want to know it's mostly because I found the static style of sword and shield boring. I much prefer the more mobile style of using two weapons.

Lets face it. SCA combat is a sport. It is set with a cool historical background. It also espouses a great set of values. It is this that elevates SCA combat far above other sports in my eyes. It is however, still a sport. It is not period reenactment.

I agree that its not reenactment – reenacting a specific occurrence as when the ACW folks do Gettysburg. On the other hand when we try we can do a very good job at recreating a generic event, a fifteenth century passage of arms for instance, or even a small raid on a town or a skirmish. It is more then a sport. Presentation does matter. There are contexts where a madu might work, but as an attempt to evoke what is typical of armoured combat prior to 1600 it for the most part takes away more then it adds attempt. A sword and a spear or a sword and an axe aren’t typical, but they do a better job then a madu at evoking pre 1600 combat.
Madu’s are fairly low on my list of concerns. I’d much rather see us address acted wounds.

The SCA has grown and changed significantly over the years. We no longer have Tolkien as a accepted source for names. We have as participants modernly recognized experts in the field of historical combat in both practical and social contexts. Why shouldn’t we attempt to apply these resources to our combat?

[Anton]

Much love from the Outlands and Goldstar Gunnar.

[J_oneshoe]

So I have kept my distance from this thread for a few to gather my thoughts together. I have seen peaple using a "madu" type weapon as a two headed sword, and something to parry greatswords with. And then there is the thought of the damn things piercing armor. Unless you thrust me in some unprotected part of me, no animal horn is gonna do much to my armored body. And parring with one, againts western broadswords and the like is another folly. I wont even go into the Darth Mal Mini that some people have come up with...

That all being said. There is a ton of historical evidence and writen record of knights and men at arms entering the lists with longswords and spears used in conjunction with one another. The fact that one of the big maneuvers was throwing the spear at your opponent we will ignore for the sake of SCA rules. SOme other cool stuff was done, like using the quillions and blade as a sort of brace to shoot the spear for some killer thrusts. There are also pic from the fetchbooks of guys planting the end of the spear in the dirt as a sort of defensive position. Dosnt seem like there are any dual ended spears, but Marazzo instracts the reader to "tip the butt end of a pike with a tempered iron spike.

Some of the other SCA 2 weapon combos are beyond my scope or atleast I havent seen them in historical context. "Punching" with an axe is not that effective against a tree let alone an armored combatant. An unvisored face ya but anyone with a shread of armor isnt gonna feel much. Hell I would give you an axe and let you punch me with it in real armor to prove my point. And the reason that bardaches attach back to the pole was because of the crappy steel in them. They were a peasants weapon and were later adapted to be used as a rest for muskets. And thats as close as you get to any kind of pole weapon being used in a two weapon style.

The things I have seen as an offhand weapon in historical context include a spear of aprox 5 feet in length, maces, axes, daggers, and in the case of rapiers, two of those. Now this by no means should be taken as gospel. Lord knows I have a limited knowledge of anything. But this thread has made the decision to take up the spear and longsword combo my new crusade. May you see me face down on the tourney field this coming season.

Janik

[Duke Gunnar]

Asbjorn,
I am afraid you missed my point on a couple of issues. First, I don't think people should make destructable shields. I have seen them before and I don't think they are safe. I for one don't want a fragment of someone's shield to fly through their eyeslot. When people have criticized my use of the ax in the past, I have told them I would be happy to use a two handed ax in a more period fasion, if they would call a blow from the weapon on their shield as an arm blow. After a blow from an ax, not a sword, but a big freakin' two handed ax on your shield, you would then be fighting sword and broken arm. Not an all together effective style to my way of thinking. So far no one has been willing to call such a blow so I will continue my present use of the ax. Secondly, I don't think you should wait for a "3 telling blow" convention. If you are completely committed to a more period form of combat, you should simply call leg blows as a death. Again, I have yet to see anyone that committed to more period combat.

Anton,
Greetings Brother! Tell everyone out there hey and give them my best.

J_oneshoe,
Good luck with the spear.

[Cet]

"If you are completely committed to a more period form of combat, you should simply call leg blows as a death. Again, I have yet to see anyone that committed to more period combat. "

I have, Asbjorn's been doing that for year now.

I prefer fighting axe v axe but I'd have no problem taking a solid blow on my shield as a good arm shot- no magic arrow analogs though, you'd have to hit near where my arm is strapped.

[blackbow]

So I have kept my distance from this thread for a few to gather my thoughts together. I have seen peaple using a "madu" type weapon as a two headed sword, and something to parry greatswords with. And then there is the thought of the damn things piercing armor. Unless you thrust me in some unprotected part of me, no animal horn is gonna do much to my armored body. And parring with one, againts western broadswords and the like is another folly. I wont even go into the Darth Mal Mini that some people have come up with...

That all being said. There is a ton of historical evidence and writen record of knights and men at arms entering the lists with longswords and spears used in conjunction with one another. The fact that one of the big maneuvers was throwing the spear at your opponent we will ignore for the sake of SCA rules. SOme other cool stuff was done, like using the quillions and blade as a sort of brace to shoot the spear for some killer thrusts. There are also pic from the fetchbooks of guys planting the end of the spear in the dirt as a sort of defensive position. Dosnt seem like there are any dual ended spears, but Marazzo instracts the reader to "tip the butt end of a pike with a tempered iron spike.

Some of the other SCA 2 weapon combos are beyond my scope or atleast I havent seen them in historical context. "Punching" with an axe is not that effective against a tree let alone an armored combatant. An unvisored face ya but anyone with a shread of armor isnt gonna feel much. Hell I would give you an axe and let you punch me with it in real armor to prove my point. And the reason that bardaches attach back to the pole was because of the crappy steel in them. They were a peasants weapon and were later adapted to be used as a rest for muskets. And thats as close as you get to any kind of pole weapon being used in a two weapon style.

Janik

Janik: I've said the same thing about a real one handed sword and a wrap shot. I'm not sure about the bardiche to the chest thing; it would depend on what you were wearing. If you had on chain over padding, I don't think it would be as unstoppable as you might think. If you wanna get a side of beef/pig and put padding on it and chainmail on that and hang it in the air and smack the bardiche into the thing, that might give some useful data. I'm not saying it'd go right through, but I think it would definitely at least crack/break ribs.

Regards,

Jonathan Blackbow