The Armour Archive

I am recent joiner to the list so I don't know if this has been discussed before but I am curious: Why is every off-hand weapon that is longer than 3' seemed to be called a madus? The madus was an indian weapon that consisted of a buckler with blades/points attached up and down from it. I really don't see them out there, I see short spears with butt spikes, I see short bardiches with the same. I fight with a 5' spear with a butt spike and its held by a gauntleted hand in no way that resembles a madus.

Want to see what your opinions on the subject are, thanks.

Wilhelm

Must be regional. Where I am, the only thing called a madu is a fixed buckler spear thingie. A spear in a gauntleted hand is called a spear or a "broken lance". An axe is called...well...an axe. Dane axes, bardiches...

Wilhelm Schwartze Leopard wrote: The madus was an indian weapon that consisted of a buckler with blades/points attached up and down from it.

I assume you are speaking about SCA fighting weapons and conventions. If you are and the cut off is pre 17th century. Can you provide any documentable evidence that Madus had metal blades on them?

Everything I have seen is either post period or were manufactured from a tortus shell and antlers.

Just curious.

Welcome to the Archive Wilhelm Schwartze Leopard,

First off, the Madu itself is a touchy subject here, so you might get some crazed responses on this.

But, yeah, I've noticed that alot of folks, in this part of Atlantia at least, have a broad definition of Madu.

I've often heard folks refer to the axe style that Sir Justus, and as of late, Johnathan Blackbow, have been using as a madu.

My own Knight refers to a short spear with butt spike that he has as a madu.

I personally, only think of a double pointy stick with a buckler attached in the middle as a madu.

I think that the same reason that a five foot spear comes under the classification Madu for most people is the same reason that so many people call tissues Kleenex, or cola drinks Coke. Anything that vaguely resembles a Madu at this point in the SCA context is called a Madu- certainly anything that is used like a Madu is called a Madu. Of course, Madus, like Kleenex and Coke have fomed a cult following, which can be seen by investigating the 7 golden rules of cult branding:

1) The consumers want to be a part of a group that is different-

Madu users often want to be rebels, or people who aren't using a sword and shield like everyone else. They also see that the Madu as something special within the group of otherwise bland weapons.

2) Cult Brand inventors show daring and determination-

Certainly the first Madu users inthe SCA were determined to find something new and different, and effective. They were daring enough to skirt the rules and come up with a weapons form that stays within the legalities of SCA combat, but is really kind of silly overall.

3) Cult Brands sell lifestyles-

Madus certainly are a part of a lifestyle in the SCA. Madu fighters are generally not part of the mainstream, and usually not into period recreation. As often as not, they are here to fight, and fight to win.

4) Listen to the Choir and create cult brand evangelists-

Madu users are nothing if not evangelists for the cause of Madu-ism. They usually talk about how they shouldn't be put down, can find a couple period examples of something like them to appease the period police, or find other similar weapons, like spears in gauntleted hands, that act like Madus but are not specifically them. Madu users will also comment on how effective they are in SCA combat.

5) Cult Brands always create customer communities-

There is certainly a community of Madu fighters, as they have been marginalized from the rest of the mainstream SCA community. Unlike other marginalized communities, theyhave not started to hold their own conventions, or special tournaments for Madu only entrants.

6) Cult Brands are inclusive-

Madu fighters, like the SCA, are a marginalized group, and will accept anyone into their ranks. Madu fighters are usually about fighting and the sport of it, not looking correct, so they don't mind who plays as long as the fight. Madu fighters are in opposition to the period fighters who believe that period appearance and techniques are important to the SCA, and are clearly an exclusive group.

7) Cult Brands promote personal freedom and draw power from their enemies-

Madus allow for personal freedom within the SCA context. They are something that immediately identifies the user as different, and difference is something that many people in the SCA strive for. Madu users find confidence in their path being good, because they find some success when using them, and also becuse they see that users of regular weapons forms constantly deride them as being unfair, or non-period. Seriously, in case you haven't noticed a lot of people dislike fighting against Madus. Therefore, the madu user sees a Madu as being not only more effective than a sword and shield, but also that madus make other people upset, or "disrupt the mainstream," "freak the natives, etc, so that adds further fuel to the idea that madus are effective if mainstream people don't like fighting against them.

"Don't shackle your brand to conventional wisdom. With big risks come big rewards. Have you challenged the status quo lately?" The Power of Cult Branding I think this sums up the thought behind most Madu users.

So, Madu, like Kleenex is a word used to describe a cult brand, a lifestyle, and a style of fighting within the SCA more than any individual style of weapon. So, anything from a bardiche or odd axe thing with a butt spike, to a "christian style" bastard sword or a real Madu is a Madu in the SCA.

I hope this answers your question.

Alaric

I would answer by saying...

TOO MANY

I would say, as a recovered "madu-holic" that there are two types of madus: ones that cannot do significant injury to an armoured opponet and those used in SCA combat that the users imagine would do harm to an armoured opponet

I have seen references to weapons that are madu-like that were used in judicial combat, 15th century italy I think.

Roger

So far thanks! I am happy with the responses on this subject. On the particulars the above mention of madus being not made with metal is so far correct as I havn't found any, my mistake, though it again makes me not want to call what I fight with a madu. I do like the cult of the madu answer because I can see myself in that. Now what would I be in that cult now that I no longer want to call my style madu? Am I a rebel that is rebelling more or just trying to slip into mainstream? I like playing the game and even take blows on my gauntlet when it supposedly proof in SCA convention ( I try to only block with the spear itself) of course again if I was blocking with a spear in real world it would be destroyed pretty quickly but lets not go there . Well gotta eat will check in later, again thanks for the responses.

Wilhelm

There is the upside down sword style also. I did that for awhile, works just the same. The judicial combat weapon I mentioned was metal with a small bar handguard.

Roger

InsaneIrish wrote:Can you provide any documentable evidence that Madus had metal blades on them?

Everything I have seen is either post period or were manufactured from a tortus shell and antlers.

Just curious.

Check out p1 of Stone's Glossary, under adaga.

Servus!

There's only one kind of Madu - CRAPTACULAR! (Copyright 2005, Bryce de Byram, Miles et Laurel)

Dont use a basket hilt or buckler with it and call it a One Handed Spear and be done with it.

The spear is a common medieval weapon and using it one handed is documentable.

Alcyoneus wrote:

InsaneIrish wrote:Can you provide any documentable evidence that Madus had metal blades on them?

Everything I have seen is either post period or were manufactured from a tortus shell and antlers.

Just curious.

Check out p1 of Stone's Glossary, under adaga.

I've also seen it spelled "Adarga"

JB

I think you are right.

This is what Stone would show you (a real one though, not a drawing, I think...):

Alcyoneus wrote:I think you are right.

This is what Stone would show you (a real one though, not a drawing, I think...):

HMMMM and who and when did someone use that double ended Orcish cluster-poker?

sarnac wrote:Dont use a basket hilt or buckler with it and call it a One Handed Spear and be done with it.

The spear is a common medieval weapon and using it one handed is documentable.

Sir Sarnac, a question. Certainly using a spear one-handed is documentable (though I haven't seen any illustrations of it in battle - just in a few fechtbuchs), but is it used in the madu-like style that you see it in our game? Held vertically, as a parrying device with a thrusting tip? I'm not even going to ask about the magic gauntlet defense in the middle.

Jost

Those are the style I've seen. I always supposed they were African or Indian, post period, and meant to oppose unarmoured, or lightly armoured opponents in a tribal situation. I,... once or twice, tried fighting florentine, with one baskethit, blade turned down, and got my a$$ handed to me real nice like, so I gave that up. Blades too light to protect the left leg, and basket was too small to effectively defend the shoulder and off side noggin. I've seen some midrealm fighters of late using short spear, and shield, "viking style", and seem to be doing quite well, with practice of course.

Duke Kynan has had some success with using a thrust and throw javelin and shield in tourney.

Alaric

Referring to the Adarga/Adaga, InsaneIrish asked:

InsaneIrish wrote:HMMMM and who and when did someone use that double ended Orcish cluster-poker?

Google says it's Arabic.

Let's just frickin' stop farting around.

One of my fellow kniggets once said; Heavy combat is a equipment sport.

I would love to hear madu fighters, christian style fighters, sword and reversed spear (me being one of them), two swords and left-handed can opener (5 foot axe held just under the axe head so that you can "punch" with the axe edge with the added top thrusting tip AND a butt spike as a bonus to make it even more versitile) to admit to the simple fact: I choose this style because it suits me and makes me win more fights than fighting sword and board.

I don't mind.
In period tournaments there has been a number of outlandish weapons used. So what?
The only difference is that in period tournements, matched weapons was the rule.

For every meassure there is a counter meassure.

I do 20-30 minutes of pell work every day, fight every sunday and hold class out of armour every wednesday. And I'm the parent of a cool toddler 1,5 years old.

I really don't care what faces me in the list. Sword hits helmet - game over.

As long as we have vikings with pikes and greatswords, knight templars with bow and arrows plus samurai fighting sword and shield, why even bother complaining?

In a perfect world, every persona would fight with the weapon of his period.

This is the sca.

Get used to it.

Vicomte Sir Brendan the Tired II

"sick and tired of being sick and tired"

Breandan TT wrote:
I really don't care what faces me in the list. Sword hits helmet - game over.


Dog I fucking love you.
Just sayin.

Animal Weretiger wrote:Breandan TT wrote:
I really don't care what faces me in the list. Sword hits helmet - game over.


Dog I fucking love you.
Just sayin.

Animal:

Kinda sums things up nicely, dunnit?

You know it. Check my new quote

I thought it was a weapon with 2 thrusting tips, under 48" with some sort of hand protection near the middle.

I've seen people who have added an axe head to one end.

My definition of a madu leaves out a single hand spear (1 tip) a "broken boarspear" (2 tips, no hand protection) an estock (can't remember the English and Hussar equivalents right off hand) (1 tip, Hand gaurd on opposite end of tip).

I used to fight with a "madu" (ie Dutch's double ended pokey thing), for 2 stick (actually sword madu was my 2 stick auth weapons), but changed to sword spear to get more in persona.

Hrólfr

Like Brenden said you fight with what you are confortable with and what makes you think you win more. I don't know if I win more but fighting spear and sword has been the most comfortable fighting style I have tried. I just felt that the style was misnamed and after studying and reading here I am sure of it. I have never been a madu fighter, as I have never used my secondary weapon with anything other than a gauntlet (I like to vary my range during battle). I again want to thank you for your responses and any future ones.

Wilhelm

I used a madu for quite a while. I dont think it was better per se than a shield, but it was a lot of fun. I tried the axe thing too and while fun, it wasnt as much fun. I never thought I could punch a real axe head hard enough into someone to really kill them so it just didnt seem right.
I wholeheartedly agree with Brendan though. Use what you want, face what comes. Bitching is just unmanly. As far as I'm concerned the minute someone starts bitching to me about my weapons choice, they've already been defeated.

Wilhelm,

Don't kid yourself into thinking that you're not a Madu user. You use one. When you walk out onto the field the vast majority of people who are watching are NOT educated observers, and what they see will be someone with a Madu, not someone with a spear. So, if you want to convince yourself that you aren't using one, that's fine, it's easily done, however, when the (relatively) local Chiv (Logan and Sinclair being among them) and the other top fighters are sitting around talking about fighters and your name comes up, I promise you that you will be labelled as Madu fighter.

Also, while most Madu fighters usually think either "Oh, I am having fun with this weapons form," or "My, I am much more successful, suddenly, with a Madu than I was with Sword and Shield," they just don't think about how boring and unfulfilling a fight they are to many people. There is no art in fighting most madu fighters, it is a trivial waste of time, much like using a sword and shield against most pole-arms. Boring. Boring, damn is it boring.

If the satisfaction level of a fighter can be fulfilled by winning with a cheesy method that takes advantage of the rules, then fine for that person. That level of satisfaction is not enough for me, however, I want more. I want to know that it was my skill that defeated an opponent who was fighting at the top of their game.

Let me phrase it like this- I don't mind getting beaten in a square fight. If someone proves to be my better, then that means I need to go and work on a way of beating them. If some guy face thrusts me between his legs when I am on my knees, or does some other cheese dick maneuver to beat me, sure he won, but I get no satisfaction from the fight, and I would hope that he really didn't either.

Fighting with a Madu or similar weapons form is the moral equivalent of thrusting someone between your legs. If that is the way you want to play, fine, but don't expect quality fighters to search you out for a fun fight.

Alaric

PS- Go Spring Valley Vikings!

Wow. Do it my way or be labelled.

Nope, just calling it like I see it within the SCA context, something that you aren't an expert on.

Just sayin'

Alaric

Spin it however you like. That's what it sounded like to me.
As for expert, having dealt with and been around the SCA for 23 years gives me no perspective at all huh.
Look, the thing that I dont like about the attitude you posted was that this guy is fighting presumably honorably with a weapon form that he enjoys and you just crapped all over it. Saying how if he doesnt do it your way he'll be labelled and suffer the consequences.
That's just weak.

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:Nope, just calling it like I see it within the SCA context, something that you aren't an expert on.

Just sayin'

Alaric

I disagree, to a point. You say that you see it from an SCA context, but many people within the SCA do not see it the same way you do. If they did, we would not have a problem with the "madu" as they would be banned.

In my opinion, your points are relevant. I think madu's are kind of cheesy. I have used them in the past and had a great time fighting with it, but decided for myself that it wasn't a weapon form that I wanted use. So I dropped it and fought with another ahistorical style, two swords. I found that what was more appropriate was a short spear and sword for two weapon fighting. It was a balance I was comfortable with.

About the only thing I disagree on (besides the SCA context thing) is that I don't really care what my opponent is fighting with when we face off. My level of skill should be enough to defeat whatever he throws my way. And if I get beat by a cheese dick manuever (or weapon form), then I need to work on defeating that.

Odo

BTW, you have been King, did you outlaw madu's in your Kingdom Law?

Odo wrote:
About the only thing I disagree on (besides the SCA context thing) is that I don't really care what my opponent is fighting with when we face off. My level of skill should be enough to defeat whatever he throws my way. And if I get beat by a cheese dick manuever (or weapon form), then I need to work on defeating that.


Odo I fucking love you too

Odo,

I banned visible non-period armor (modern sports gear) and clothing (jeans, camos, and sneakers) from the field, and banned "light fighting" (Shinai) as an organized style in Caid, because they continually ignored the rules about appearance on the field. I think that was enough at the time.

Alaric

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:Odo,

I banned visible non-period armor (modern sports gear) and clothing (jeans, camos, and sneakers) from the field, and banned "light fighting" (Shinai) as an organized style in Caid, because they continually ignored the rules about appearance on the field. I think that was enough at the time.

Alaric

And knowing how people are in this organization I am sure there was push back, evn though these changes are obviously for the betterment of our game. Would you consider making a rule change to Kingdom Law banning madu's if you were to win another?

Odo

If the stars aligned correctly, and I win another Crown, then I might ban Madus. I would certainly not allow them in Crown Tourney. I would also like to see a point where everyone entering Crown has to present a reference picture(s) for their armor, but I would try and be reasonable on this point- but not allow fantasy armors, or viking/samurai etc combinations. I think that appearance is important and that a King should lead the way in that area.

Alaric

PS- IIRC, In Caid, Madus like Gunnar's axe thing were banned if they had a basket hilt on them. Someone (not me) felt that the punching motion with your hand right next to the axe head was too much like a punch dagger.