metal vs. leather

[Livia Tasia]

Salve,

I was looking through the pictures in the "Top Notch Kit" thread and noticed a lot of people have metal armor. How easy is it to move around in that? What happens in the summer (don't you literally cook in it?)?

Some of those kits have to be incredibly heavy. Mine is all leather with the exception of my helm and my knees which are metal.

Did you choose metal for period reasons or better protection or you liked the style?

Tasia
An Tir

[Josh W]

Leather armour seems to have been much less common throughout history, at least in Europe. I'd rather see us portray the rule, not the exception, in the SCA.

I chose my harness

http://josh.mediumaevum.com/library%201%20097b.jpg

because I had wanted to own a suit of full plate armour since I was a kid.

Is it hot? Sure, in the summer; but I have a lighter brigandine kit to wear for hot weather. I refuse to wear leather armour.

Is it heavy? Only when I take it off and try to carry it to the car all at once. When it's on, the weight is pretty evenly distributed and the discomfort is minimal. I certainly wouldn't call it "incredibly heavy". My suit weighs about 60 pounds. What adds up to "incredibly heavy to you?

What do you have against metal armour?

[freiman the minstrel]

Fit is far, far more important with plate harnesses (or any other armor) than weight. If your armor doesn't fit, you wont be able to fight. If it does, you will. The mass of the armor imparts inertia, but unless this is taken to extremes, it is theoretically possible to work around it. Fit is far more important.

Heat is less a defining issue when stupid folks who use leather armor do it with black leather. The black gets hot fast, and I am not positive that metal armor is any warmer.

freiman
(wearer of black leather armor)

[Russ Mitchell]

Metal is simply more appropriate for most of the folks doing SCA, particularly for noble impressions.

Southern Italy, Hungary, the Balkans, Iberia, d'outre-mer... these are areas where leather armors were more appropriate. Not precisely where the majority of SCA personas originate. I do Hungary, which is Grand Central Station as far as leather armor in Europe is concerned, and there are still a number of portrayals I could do, most of them precisely the ones you'd do in the SCA, who wouldn't be caught touching the stuff.

[Livia Tasia]

What do you have against metal armour?

Nothing at all! It looks amazing. I was always curious as to how well you could move in it. I thought it would have been a lot heavier then you mentioned yours was. Yours looks great. I hadn't thought of the weight distribution factor.

My persona (Greek/Roman) is very early period which was some of the reason I went with leather armor. The other reason was it was the easiest thing for me to get right into (making it myself and with the help of the fighters in our Barony so I could quickly get out of the loaner armor).

Thanks for the reply,

Tasia

[Livia Tasia]

Heat is less a defining issue when stupid folks who use leather armor do it with black leather. The black gets hot fast, and I am not positive that metal armor is any warmer.

freiman
(wearer of black leather armor)

Mine is a dark brown.



I hope by asking no one gets the impression I'm saying metal is bad - again, I think it looks impressive. I was just curious about heat and movement.

Tasia

[Mord]

Having worn metal, leather and, well, plastic, over the years, here's my take on the whole thing.

If you work it well, go with metal. Steel, even mild steel, provides more protection for the buck and the effort. However, working steel pretty much requires specialized tools, some of which are expensive.

Leather also requires some specialized tools, but these tools are less expensive to have and leather is easier to work. However, the level of protection of leather is less than steel, even if you stiffen the leather, somehow. There are various methods of stiffening leather.

Plastic is good material, but was not medieval. Plastic needs to be hidden.

All armor needs to have some sort of padding beneath it. An arming coat, a gambason, whatever. Simply put a combination of rigid material with padding underneath usually provides good protection from broken bones. You will still be bruised.

You will also be hot. I'm sorry, but unless you're going to paint yourself blue, lime your hair (I like spikey ), and say that's your armor, running around fighting in armor will make you hot and occasionally uncomfortable. Drink lots of water and please keep your electrolites up.

Mord.

[Dan Howard]

My persona (Greek/Roman) is very early period which was some of the reason I went with leather armor.

There is even less leather armour in Classical Rome and Greece (some would say almost none at all) than there is in Medieval Western Europe. The segmentata was almost certainly never made of leather. As Josh said, re-enactors should be portraying the typical, not the exception. There are several good threads on this subject over on RAT. http://www.romanarmy.nl/rat/

[Livia Tasia]

I don't have a lot of experience working with metal but it looks like something I should check in to.

Tasia

[freiman the minstrel]

Please show us your rig. This one is interesting to me, and I would really like to see how this worked out for you. I realize you didn't ask me to talk about your rig, but I would just like to see it.

I was looking at your rig, and it looks like it might be inspired by a spartan Hopelite's corslet. If it were, it would be made of linen, I think, but you are out of my specialty, so I really don't know anything about it. I am assuming greaves. I an guessing that you either used leather again, or went with steel, painted to look like bronze.

What do you use on your arms? I am assuming a corinthian helm would be correct with this one, but I could be wrong on that.

How did you find your way to get along with SCA compromises?

freiman

[Livia Tasia]

How did you find your way to get along with SCA compromises?

freiman

I'm not sure what your asking - the armor requirements? The body armor is latigo covering pickle barrel plates. The arms are saddle leather with extra pieces on the outside so it's thickness is doubled. The legs are the same with the metal knees attached. Leather gorget and regular SCA style helm. No greaves. There is a lot of similar style armor in our area actually more leather than metal. And maybe that's a matter of it being easier to work with etc. like most of my reasons.




Tasia

[Adriano]

Well, your current leather kit already looks better than a lot that I've seen in the SCA. If you want to try metal, you might consider something just on the torso, and keep the leather on your limbs. If you could switch those pickle barrel plates for steel plates, you'd have a pretty authentic "coat of plates", and I doubt if it would weigh significantly more (the plates don't have to be very thick; I made an effective coat of plates using the "nail plates" you can get at a hardware store).

[Livia Tasia]

Thanks Adriano,

I'm attaching a picture of the inside. Rognvaldr, the former Baron of Stromgard (An Tir) designed the plates. The top ones move sideways with my arm movement, then back into place. The bottom ones were meant to be protection but wear on the outside like actual plates - if that makes sense.



Tasia

[Sir Daniel]

Hey Tasia,

If you want to see what full metal looks and feels like up close, find either myself or sir mrks at the next event you're at. Fit is everything, but you will see that both of us can do sumersaults (ok mrks can, i'm too old and fat) in our armour and we both wear full plate. Range of motion is no problem for either of us.

Of course we cheat a bit on the weight issue, using ful Ti for all of it escept the helms, but basically it will still illustrate what it's about.

Here is a good video that has both myself and mrks fighting. You get a good look at my armour, which is rare since I usually have my surcoat and torc and mantle covering it up.

I'm ashamed to say mrks catches me at about the 4:30 point in the video on the right leg but I missed it. I often have to call based on sound and watchin my opponents form on leg shots since my legs are bullet-proof (which is just how I like it)

http://tiarmour.com/videos/sat%20practi ... 7%2005.WMV

Eventually he takes my leg again and you will hear us talking about exactly that point.

Sir Geofrey (sp) up in Lionsgate also wears full plate and has no issues with mobility, and his patterns are more period than ours (but his is mild steel I think or stainless)

But you're right, Full plate is damn rare up in Scandanavia... I mean An Tir.

[Livia Tasia]

Hey Sir Daniel,

I didn't get a chance to see Sir Mrks fight at Ursulmas but I will hopefully run into both of you in the next few months at upcoming events.

Tasia

[freiman the minstrel]

Well, your current leather kit already looks better than a lot that I've seen in the SCA. If you want to try metal, you might consider something just on the torso, and keep the leather on your limbs. If you could switch those pickle barrel plates for steel plates, you'd have a pretty authentic "coat of plates", and I doubt if it would weigh significantly more (the plates don't have to be very thick; I made an effective coat of plates using the "nail plates" you can get at a hardware store).

Adriano,

I agree with you, but I think that other things might have a higher priority than the plates right now for the hoplite thing. This rig does look pretty good, and it gives the impression that this is a pretty solid fighter, not a dilletant or duffer.

I like the corslet, despite the fact that it is leather. The appearance just says "Greek" to me. The sheild does appear roman. I cant recall ever seeing a decent dished round hoplite sheild, and they look like they are a real bear to make, so the roman seems like a good compromise.

I was thinking that the thing that I was expecting to see but didn't was greaves. That and a really sexy corinthian helmet.

According to "Warfare in the classical age" (a coffee table book from Salamander) by John Warry (ISBN 0-948509-16-3) an upper class Hoplite might have plates on the outside of their linothorax, so plates on the outside would be OK, assuming the source is not incorrect. It also says that for parts of the Hellenic period, arm and thigh (and even foot) armor was used, though it gives no more details than that.

sorry, that was just my impression.

freiman

[Dan Howard]

According to "Warfare in the classical age" (a coffee table book from Salamander) by John Warry (ISBN 0-948509-16-3) an upper class Hoplite might have plates on the outside of their linothorax, so plates on the outside would be OK, assuming the source is not incorrect.

Warry isn't talking about wide bands of plate. Sometimes the linothorax was reinforced with small overlapping scales.

[Livia Tasia]

I like the corslet, despite the fact that it is leather. The appearance just says "Greek" to me. The sheild does appear roman. I cant recall ever seeing a decent dished round hoplite sheild, and they look like they are a real bear to make, so the roman seems like a good compromise.

I was thinking that the thing that I was expecting to see but didn't was greaves. That and a really sexy corinthian helmet.

freiman

Thanks for the info Freiman,

The next project is to work on a helm that is more toward Greek/Roman but still within SCA limits. Mine is the basic -first fighter- helm which works pretty good but I'd like to make it fancy like many of the other fighters around here have done.

I think maybe I'm trying to do too much early Greek (BC) and too much later Roman (100 AD - my persona range) as far as the looks of it all?

The shield was given to me by Sir Germanicus (formerly of An Tir) who develop wonderful and as close to authentic/SCA Roman armor. He had an excellent rig set up. When he left he gave me his shield so even if I went entirely Greek I'd want to keep it - it's an honor for me.

I saw some fighters at an event last month wearing greaves which were very cool.

Thanks for all the input and advice and the link to the Roman Army talk site. It looks like there are a few ways I can add on to what I have to be more authentic but still stay within SCA limits.

Tasia

[Euric Germanicus]

Cool looking kit.

If I ever spot you on the field I will come have a Roman to Roman chat

[Sextus Maximus]

I am a Romano Brit 5th century A.D. I use 20 gauge 401 Stainless Lamellar and I simply love the stuff. Easy to move in and when the wind blows I feel the breeze much better than my last kit which was a full leather breastplate. Presently I am working on my scale skirt which will be even more interesting. Your kit is an awesome start, I commend how much you have achieved in such a short time. This kit is my third one and I am still not completely satisfied with it.


http://madon8.tripod.com/id1.html

[Livia Tasia]

We need more Romans in An Tir, so please feel free to send some troops my way!

I would love to meet up with you Euric and Ronnin your kit is brilliant. Did you cut the pieces yourself or were you able to purchase them?

From looking at yours - I could probably add the metal pieces directly to what I already have. Ronnin how long did it take you to make the body piece?

Euric do you have pictures??

Thanks!

Tasia

[Hew]

Did you choose metal for period reasons or better protection or you liked the style?

Around here, decent armour-grade leather is much more expensive (per square foot) than steel. I imagine it is somewhat offset by the tools being cheaper (and quieter, for apartment dwellers), and transport is easier. I happen to have a station wagon, so I can easily move a 4'x4' sheet of steel, but a roll of leather must be easier to carry on a bus or bicycle.

I'm going with steel for exposed armour, because it looks cooler.

[Kilkenny]

I hope by asking no one gets the impression I'm saying metal is bad - again, I think it looks impressive. I was just curious about heat and movement.

Tasia

Any armor can be hot and heavy and uncomfortable. One of the fundamental "secrets" of armor is that it really needs to be made to fit the person well.
When it does fit well, it will seem to weigh less and be much more comfortable than when it fits poorly.

The movement factor is more one of fit than of weight. A reasonably physically fit person can move adequately with quite a bit of added weight - that is well fitted to them. You can take much less weight, fit it badly (even though it may *look* Great!) and be unable to move at all well in it.

I think the heat factor is less in the "armor" and more in the padding in many cases.

No armor is really casual/comfy for just hanging out in - it's not meant to be

Gavin

[Sextus Maximus]

. Did you cut the pieces yourself or were you able to purchase them?

I made the metal myself with the information and tutorial I found here on the archive:
http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/l ... emplarbob/

I hardened the leather as well which makes it even more ridged.

From looking at yours - I could probably add the metal pieces directly to what I already have.

I think you could do that in fact you could make a Lorica Squamatta by lacing scale on to the leather kit you have. It is possible... Felix makes some very nice Aluminum scales in which I am purchasing myself which is here.
http://lamellar.blogspot.com/



Ronnin how long did it take you to make the body piece?

Well, it took me about 4 months of cutting grinding and punching 2000 holes but it came out really well. It was a learning experience and I made many mistakes that I had to redo the Laemellar. If I was going to it again I would of made the Lammellar smaller and made a few other adjustments on the hole configuration so that certain areas would collapse on themselves verticaly.

[Livia Tasia]

Went over to the Roman Army Talk forum and registered and spent some time there. WOW.

Yeah, I've got a lot of reworking to do.

I'm wondering now how I got it in my head that the early period Greek/Romans used so much leather. I could have sworn I read that - I thought I'd done a lot of research on it.

Will need to do more....

Thanks again.

Tasia

[Galfrid atte grene]

A few thoughts:

I wear metal armour because I'm attempting a period persona, and, lets face it, steel looks good. Movement is not difficult with correctly-fitted steel armour (though it can take many changes to your kit before you get a "perfect" fit. I'm still not quite at that point). There are some downsides though. Heat-wise, it can get a little hot. Honestly though, I only notice the heat around my head for the most part. The weight of my kit is a little less than half of my body weight which means I am hindered somewhat. A full arm harness makes my shots slower from both the added weight and the fact that my arm tires more quickly. However, overall, I view this as a positive because if I can overcome those odds it will only make me a better fighter.

[Livia Tasia]

Here is a link on leather armor I got on the RAT forum.

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica/bronze_leather.htm

I knew I had remembered reading about leather armor and this is very similar to the information I had a few years back. Thought it may be of interest so sharing it.

I've since learned my armor is close to a subarmalis. There are ways I can defeinitely make it more authentic and Knotwolf Armory makes SCA helms in the early Roman fashion so I can have a legal helm that will also represent my time period.

Tasia

[Sextus Maximus]

That was a very interesting article and well thought out. Thank you for showing this it was very informative. The conclusions make a alot of sense and how he had great close up pictures of the ancient statues and how he studied the seams is most impressive.

[Patton Lives]

I'm wondering now how I got it in my head that the early period Greek/Romans used so much leather. I could have sworn I read that - I thought I'd done a lot of research on it.

My guess is you watched Gladiator

What you might want to investigate is making a suit of high ranking roman armor from steel and putting a finish on it that bronzes it(theres a thread on a technique Halberds used), when bronze may be more appropriate than steel.

[Murdock]

As others have said there has been very very little leather armour found.

Very odd since they find shoes as far back as the Roman era with regulartity, belts and such too.

Leather stops thrusts poorly and since the spear was the primary weapon this might account for leather being less commonly used than iron/bronze/steel ect.


IE the great tonnage of leather armour on everyone is a SCAdianism. Greek stuff was linithrax bronze ect. Black is also hugely over used. The social connotation of black to ancient/ medieval peoples was diferent than it is to us.

Then there are the problems of trying to do basiacally dismounted medieval behord combat in very pre medieval armour, but thats another thread.

As for heat, ditch the plastic. Your basically wearing a thermos, not the best idea for keping cool.

[Livia Tasia]

It was before Gladiator!!

Actually it was through reading some of the Roman army books. Going through the information on the RAT forum I'm running across some of the information similar to what I had found.

It just wasn't near as prominent as I thought it had been.

I'm definitley going to check into an SCA legal more Roman kit. There are quite of few people who fight SCA as well as do Roman re-enactment. Lots of possibilities.

I especially like the Roman SCA helms on the Knotwolf Armory site...

Tasia

[Sextus Maximus]

I think your main focus should be a good Roman looking helm. The rest will fall into place very quickly. The plastic is a insulator and that will make the leather armor much hotter. You could replace that plastic with some heavy skirting leather or even some metal if you have a way to cut, shape and grind it.