Help: Non-foam Thrusting Tip and Lanyard!

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:45 pm

Hello folks,

I'm just in the process of finishing my first SCA-legal sword. It's got a baskethilt I purchased from Von Sussen and has a 40" piece of rattan from Icefalcon through it.

I put a double layer of strapping tape over most of the surface, and then tightly wrapped it with duct tape. I rounded the point and all of that good stuff, and attached black electrical tape to mark the edges of the blade.

What I'd like to do is attach a thrusting tip that is not foam. According to the rules, it must be two inches in diameter and provide a bit of give upon contact with the opponent. I'd like to make it from leather, and want to know how I should go about constructing one that will work well and be safe.

Also, what should I make a good lanyard from, and what point should I attach it to on my hilt? I have plenty of leather to cut into a thick strap, or strong latigo lace, if something like that is recommended.

Thank you!

-Gregory-

D. Sebastian · Post by **D. Sebastian** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:03 pm

Ger,
How tall are you?

40" is a big stick.

I' 5'11" and I use a 37" for my long stick and 35" for my 'whip stick'.

For a lanyard, I use any piece of cord (macromae, paracord, etc) tied in a simple loop at the bottom of the basket. Then I loop my thumb in it and "rool" the sword into my hand so that it loosely wraps my wrist once.

Works good.

freiman the minstrel · Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:11 pm

I only know of one way.

There is a company that makes red rubber thrusting tips. I can't remember exactly who right now, but I have seen enough of them lately to think that they might be pretty easy to find them. I have been leaving the thrusties off my swords right now because I want to work on my use of the edge. Because of this, I haven't bought one. I don't see anything wrong with them.

You might also check with your local marshal. He is almost certainly conversant with the rules surrounding thrusters. At least some kingdoms have rules about "Low profile thrusting tips" that seem superior. I wouldn't think that leather will pass muster, as leather is one of the examples they use for definition of the term "Rigid".

Why no foam?

As for lanyards, the about a jillion different lanyard designs, and some of them look pretty snazzy. All it actually has to do is keep your sword from attached to you if you should happen to lose your grip. It's a safety thing, and one of the ones that make sense. Make sure you choose a design that allows easy disengagement of the weapon, because a sixty second break to switch your weapon (if you lose an arm, for instance) can really be a pain.

freiman

Urban · Post by **Urban** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:49 pm

I believe you're talking about mandrake armory thrusting tips, found here.
http://www.mandrakearmory.com/Merchant2 ... y_Code=TPS

I'm not sure that you could make a thrusting tip entirely out of leather. The rules state that you need 1/2 inch of progressive give across the entire surface. Leather isn't springy enough to compress that much. From what I've seen anyway. That's just my opinion, take it as you will.
~Folcric

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:51 pm

Hey D.,

I'm 6' tall. I want to use a 40" stick because that's the usual length for a knightly sword of the era I'm doing. I have two 37" pieces and another 40" piece that I can use after this sword takes it's beating.

I'm doing to try some latigo leather lace for the lanyard. I'm sure it's strong enough to suffice for the purpose.

As for the thrusting tip. I was planning on leather because I figured I could leave a gap between the tip of the sword and the top of the leather, to allow for a gap that can be closed in on when pressure is put on the leather.

I don't think I'll mess with that, though, and will get one of the Mandrake heads.

Thanks guys!

-Gregory-

Lorccan · Post by **Lorccan** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:57 pm

In general, it helps to integrate the thrusting tip into the construction of the sword at an earlier stage (usually before the tape goes on). You'll probably want to shorten the rattan by 1" to 1/2" to account tor the thrustie.

I have never heard of any way of constructing a legal tip that did not use some foam - even the Mandrake tips are filled with foam to get the right balance of compressibility and resistance (Rod includes several discs with each tip, allowing you to use however much works with your local marshallate standards).

The most basic tip is constructed by wrapping over the foam with tape to attach it to the sword. These are the most prone to tearing off or being crushed (to the point that they no longer offer sufficient 'give'). Avoiding these is a good idea, I think.

The alternative is to cover the foam with something - leather, hollowed-out tennis ball, trailer hitch cover, strip of rubber from an old bike tire innertube, etc {I know people who have tried variations on all of the above}. These are more durable, but they can add a lot of weight to the end of the sword if you're not careful.

My favorite approach is to cut out discs of foam of the appropriate diameter (try making the tip slightly conical - discs the diameter of the rattan building up to the 2" size at the very tip - to reduce bulk and clumsiness) and contact cement them together, then contact cement this to the end of the bare rattan. Using some suede leather (around 4 oz.), cut out a "+" about 8 inches long, with arms about 1 1/2 inches wide at the center and tapering to 1 1/8 inches wide at the tips. Contact cement theis over the foam and rattan. Let dry 24 hours if possible. This makes for a tip that is flexible enough that it is really tough to tear off. Then tape up the stick, over the tip, and back down a few times with stapping tape. Wrap around the point where the rattan ends and the foam begins with strapping tape a few times (a 2" strapping tape, especially 3M's 'Extreme Application' strapping tape, works best for this). Then cover with whatever marking tape your Kingdom requires.

Ensolite foam is the best I've found for this, it's readily available for order off the internet.

Hope some of this rambling is useful!

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:05 pm

Hey Lorccan,

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll buy the tip from Mandrake right now (literally) and when it comes in, which will definitely be before I attend any practices, I'll put it on and then add more tape over what I've got already. I had a feeling I didn't have enough, anyway, so that'll work out.

Thanks!

-Gregory-

DELETEMYACCOUNT · Post by **DELETEMYACCOUNT** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:24 pm

Mandrake sent me a pair of tips for me to check out and reccomend to Tuchux. I loved mine till it broke. A bunch of our guys use them now. They're great. Cant say enough good things about them. Seriously.

Lorccan · Post by **Lorccan** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:26 pm

Crap! Must remember to read before posting!

In Caid, you can use low-profile thrusting tips! To hell with the 2" tips, they're not needed for single-handed swords - since you wrote 2", I described how I make thrusties for maces & glaives & such. Revised:

My favorite approach is to cut out discs of foam the diameter of the rattan and contact cement them together, then contact cement this to the end of the bare rattan. Using some suede leather (around 4 oz.), cut out a "+" about 7 1/2 inches long, with arms about 1 1/8 inches wide. Contact cement this over the foam and rattan. Let dry 24 hours if possible. This makes for a tip that is flexible enough that it is really tough to tear off. Then tape up the stick, over the tip, and back down a few times with strapping tape. Wrap around the point where the rattan ends and the foam begins with strapping tape a few times (a 2" strapping tape, especially 3M's 'Extreme Application' strapping tape, works best for this). Cover the tip and the last 3 inches of the foam & rattanwith duct or gaffer's tape of a color that contrasts with the edge and flat of the blade.

Note that until you complete the specific authorization for single-handed thrusting, you will not be allowed to use a single-handed thrusting weapon in wars or tourneys. This need not be a big issue - just make sure that when you complete your basic authorization, you get the marshall to also put you through the additional authorization for thrusting. You can always practice with any legal weapon, regardless of your authorization status.

If you can make it to Crown Tourney in Dun Or (Lancaster), let me know - there will be several Archive members there, and we'd love to help you get swinging! For that matter, some of us may make it to the Nordwache Chivalry Tournament later this month.

St. George · Post by **St. George** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:42 pm

Gregory,

The low profile thrusting tips that are legal in Caid are much easier to apply and use than the old 2" style. They do not detract from the profile of the sword (not that it looks like a sword anyway), and don't affect the weight adversely. I find that the best way to integrate them into the sword is by using the thin nylon webbing/straps that are used on a school backback (they are the thin kind with a weave like a seatbelt). Make them into a cross shape, where the straps cover the foam, and go down the sword about 2.5" past the beginning of the rattan. The nylon is light, and when covered with 1 layer of duct tape will hold the tip on their for the life of the sword (and can usually be used on over and over again).

I would also like to recommend starting with a shorter length sword, if only to get your muscles used to swinging a sword and to start building them up. Swords much over 38" total length are difficult to learn to use well, and if the sword is too heavy, or the balance is really off, which on a 40" one often they often are, then they will just slow your learning curve. Try the lighter, shorter sword first, and work your way up to the longer ones. Longer swords can be effective (I finalled in Crown with a 42" sword with no thrusting tip on it), but they take a long time to learn to use well.

You may want to consider using less tape. It sounds like you put a lot on there. I believe that duct tape is more dense than rattan, and so I try to use as little of it as possible, so I can have a nice light, well balanced sword (then again I pretty much wipe a stick out at least once a month). Also, once you put the strapping tape on (especially if you spiral wrap it) the duct tape doesn't do much else for the sword, except weight it down. You might want to consider just covering the sword with straight lines of tape (blade and non-blade) that don't overlap. The extra tape really does affect sword weight, and a sword that is too heavy will be a pain to learn with.

The thicker "thong" leather (like boot lacing) works just fine as a lanyard.

Good luck, and if I end up back in California, I hope to meet you (I am hoping my application to hope a PhD program at UCSB gets accepted!).

Alaric

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 10:39 pm

some of us may make it to the Nordwache Chivalry Tournament later this month.

I'll be there as a spectator, so it'll be nice if I can meet some folks I've talked to!

Animal, I think I'll get a tip for sure, but I actually just placed an order with Historic Enterprises that I'd forgotten about, so I'll have to wait a couple of weeks.

Alaric, thanks for all of the advice! I only had one layer of duct tape, and just took it off. I have a layer of strapping tape running vertical and another horizontally, and will get my thrusting tip and add it, then add the duct tape and electrical tape edges/tip.

I also just cut five inches off of the sword so that it's 35" long right now, and will round it off later tonight, and then it'll have to wait until I get the thrusting tip before completion!

It would be my honor to get to meet you, Alaric! I hope you make it back to California!

Cheers!

-Gregory-

(p.s. Now I have a 35" sword under progress, two 37" pieces and one 40" piece. I think that will suffice for now!)

D. Sebastian · Post by **D. Sebastian** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:24 am

Swords much over 38" total length are difficult to learn to use well, and if the sword is too heavy, or the balance is really off, which on a 40" one often they often are, then they will just slow your learning curve.

His Grace Alaric's wisdom reminded me of the elbow and shoulder pain I got 4 months into fighting. It was determined that (1) my handle was too thick and (2) my sword was too long.

Ger, it really sucks to have to stop fighting for a few weeks when you just are starting to feel the mojo.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:44 am

I cut back from 36 to 34 and am pretty happy about the whole thing.

Blackstone · Post by **Blackstone** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:42 am

Here's another vote for not starting with too long of a stick.

I'm .... relatively tall ... and when I was first starting out His Grace Koris had me using a 42" stick. Shortly thereafter I tore my elbow up and am now using somewhere around a 38" or so and my elbows and shoulders are much happier.

St. George · Post by **St. George** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:04 pm

D. makes a good point, you should also carve down your handles some. You would be surprised at how much a nicely done handle really affects the performace of a sword. A smaller grip will also let you more easily change your grip during a fight. You will find that you can only throw certain shots with certain grips.

Good luck, and do your pell work!

Alaric

PS- If you get the opportunity, look up Graf Gerhard in Caid. He does an excellent portrayal of the period that you are trying to do, and I think that you all might have a lot more in common than just a similar name.

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:43 pm

I definitely second going with the shorter sword. Long swords are a lot harder to fight with up close with an appointment. Not to mention, the more your sword weighs, the more chance you have of injuring your shoulder or elbow.

When I started fighting, a knight from my group explained his way of sword length. Holding your sword in your hand, pointed down the tip should be about ground level. Of course this was just from his experience, but it is not a bad method for newer people.

Remember Greg, those longer sword were usually used from horseback, so the were longer. Good luck finding your personal length, it took me a while with several cuts to get mine. I am 5'7" and my sword is 36" total. I think I have about a 31" blade.

Uric

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:28 pm

I'm 6'4" with an overall length of my stick at 34".

Euric Germanicus · Post by **Euric Germanicus** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:15 pm

6' here, use 38" swords.

I started with shorter, 34" or so, and worked my way up. Your inside game will suffer a bit if you use a sword that is too long.

As everyone else has said, go a little smaller to start, and shave your grip down a bit. Not TOO much (just did this and had to add gym tape to increase it). Some type of grip tape is nice on the inside. I like to shave mine down a little more than normal and add some gym tape to fill out the grip. I find I do not turn my swords into projectile weapons this way.