Interesting

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:38 pm

I was typing this poem from the late 1200's by Laon when I had to take the library book back. Read it.

---------------

People who are reluctant to put themselves out
can understand little and comprehend nothing,
but people who wish to get on in life sensibly
should press on with things and so learn the ropes.
Because I am unable to support myself any longer,
I find I have to become a herald,
for Idleness and Greed
urge and press me so very much,
telling me that it is ever so important
to take up an undemanding profession
which involves little in the way of effort or pain.
In my deliberations I find no
better idea than to be a Herald,
so I require one of them
to spend a day telling me
whatever a year in the profession of arms requires,
and avoid a lot of fatigue in consequence.
Absolute leisure is what I most value:
work puts me all Ã¢â‚¬Å“out of sortsÃ¢â‚¬Â

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:09 pm

You didn't finish it.

Cool Sirventes, V!!!

Chris G. · Post by **Chris G.** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:31 pm

Please tell me that you'll be typing the ending up soon. If not, would you mind sharing the name of the book you found that in?

Thanks very much for posting this poem.

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:04 pm

The book was called "Tournament." It's brand new.

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:03 pm

If things carry on his way
the time will come when lawyers will be called on
to decide the direction of the sun and to give signals
as they do in judicial combats.

Anyone care to comment?

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:05 pm

there, in that place where the melee is thickest,
showered with the blows of maces
clubs and drawn swords,
in the combat and the shock of battle,

Comments?

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:06 pm

Judicial combats and tournaments are two entirely different things. Period.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:33 pm

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:If things carry on his way
the time will come when lawyers will be called on
to decide the direction of the sun and to give signals
as they do in judicial combats.

Anyone care to comment?

My lawyer shall bugger your lawyer. :shock:

Good day, Sir! :wink:

I'm not a fan of determinate marshalling either. I think they should be there to give the combatants more information, should they request/need it.

Magnus The Black · Post by **Magnus The Black** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:04 am

Was this it?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/185285 ... e&n=283155

Hedinn · Post by **Hedinn** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:39 am

Men striving against each other for no reason other than to prove their worth to themselves and to each other, do so. No matter what tools they choose, wether it be sword, club, or daggers and shields of paper. Victory and judgement is between them and them alone.

To give that power of judgement to another makes it a game, playing to the crowd for glory, and not honor.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:36 am

Hedinn, the emprise you carry is about honor gained from deeds separated from tournaments and events. It is about seeking, finding, and giving honor between two men at arms.

What deeds have you done? No matter what else--no matter how many tournaments you have won or lost at, or titles given, you will have done at least one emprise.

The thing that has directed my life in arms has been this:

Well do I know that true bravery
rejects this sort of nit-picking,
for men who really care for great accomplishments
like as much to be winners as losers:
they bear themselves with pride no matter what happens.
Tournaments were not originally held as a way of capturing horses
but as to learn who was manly
in his conduct, and to do great deeds of arms.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:01 am

Well, the evidence points to winners of tournaments of ALL kinds being chosen by a "panel".
But what does that stanza about judicial combats really mean? Could it be coaching they are talking about?

Apollonian · Post by **Apollonian** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:38 am

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:Well, the evidence points to winners of tournaments of ALL kinds being chosen by a "panel".
But what does that stanza about judicial combats really mean? Could it be coaching they are talking about?

I think the writer is stating contempt for two separate things:

That judicial combat isn't just and is therefore contemptable. That is evidenced by the fact that signals are given by judges, or those in some authority, either to the combatants or each other, thus invalidating the whole idea of reaching a just decision.

My second thought provoked by your question:

Well do I know that true bravery
rejects this sort of nit-picking,
for men who really care for great accomplishments
like as much to be winners as losers:
they bear themselves with pride no matter what happens.

That all else is contemptable or corruptible but the deed itself. That the very brave are not concerned with these, since they care for great accomplisments whether they end in success or failure. In other words, there is more potential worth in the undertaking than there is in the outcome.

With these thoughts running around, no surprise there would be a hundred years of war in the next century.

Falcone

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:54 am

A striving for pride and self-worth in a world where it was actually getting harder and harder to advance economically and socially.
Nothing wrong with that.

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:12 pm

I'm curious about the time of the poem in regards to tourneys. Were tourneys that prevelent in the later 12th century that they were already seen as corrupt or done for the wrong ideals? My history experience is more 10-11th century, and I always understood to hight of the tourneys to be much later. Curious. Not that corruption or wrong doing was new. :twisted:

As for lawyers called, I have personally seen in my SCA time a marshal siding in favor of someone with rank. It sucks, but it happens. My opinion is that marshals are for safety, a neutral opinion if a combatant needs one, and to maintain the rules. Whether a shot was good or not is between combatants.

The comment on clubs is interesting. I can only imagine that as a good sword was expensive, that some would go out with a stout stick and beat a man into submission. A club would be more affective against mail anyway.

It seems like when something has potential to be profitable (horse, arms from defeated opponent in tourney), it will draw those whose primary interest is gain. Such is life. Just like crooked men are draw to politics. It is not their desire to help the community, it is to better themselves. History shows us this. What we also get to see are those examples of true chivalry whose deeds are not done for self. These examples who inspire us by humility, loyalty and honor.

The thing I love about the SCA, is even with all the negatives we deal with, this is the biggest collection of like minded people I have met, in terms of truly being inspired by the ideals of chivalry.

Uric

Sieg · Post by **Sieg** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:27 pm

Ser Knight of Swabia,

It gladdens my heart to see such a topic of discussion. I have just finished a most wonderfull book.

"The Last Duel"

I do belive your "lawyer" quote was from there.

If anyone has a chance they should go forth and obtain themselves this book and read it. It will assist if not solidify the concepts between that of the Judicial Duel vs. Tourney.

Although my area of interest within the society is a couple of hundred years or thousands of miles frmo the setting of this endevour. It was a well worth insight to understand a little more of the culture of the time.

I was reading the damn thing and all I could think about was Sir Vitus

good stuff,

You inspire me, Both you and your Esquire Jehan. Although as I have stated that my "realm" is different from that of yours. It hastens me to become more "strenuous" in my endevors.

after all, I cannot let those silly 14th century geeks out shine me now can I

edit:
forgive me, I fear I might have derailed the original thread. but none the less. here is some input on the beginning half of the conversation. we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:59 pm

Every period is backwards-looking. EVERY ONE.

There is always a 'golden age' that has been lost.

Otherwise, what would whiney little poets have to kvetch about?
:twisted:

Sieg · Post by **Sieg** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:12 pm

Sir Bryce,

Remind me one of these days to get in touch with you about how to talk smack.

you never cease to amaze me with your antics. :wink:

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:14 pm

BdeB wrote:Otherwise, what would whiney little poets have to kvetch about?

Or minstrels to warble about? :?:

Magmaforge · Post by **Magmaforge** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:26 pm

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:A striving for pride and self-worth in a world where it was actually getting harder and harder to advance economically and socially.
Nothing wrong with that.

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:If things carry on his way
the time will come when lawyers will be called on
to decide the direction of the sun and to give signals
as they do in judicial combats.

Anyone care to comment?

Uh, which century are we talking about?

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:26 pm

Trystan of Anglesey wrote:
BdeB wrote:Otherwise, what would whiney little poets have to kvetch about?

Or minstrels to warble about?

Simpering minstrels trystan, I prefer simpering minstrels and whiney poets! :twisted:

BdeB,
Occasional simpering minstrel and whiney poet.

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:47 am

thanks for clearing that up!

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:01 am

The more things change, the more they stay the same...

Apollonian · Post by **Apollonian** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:06 am

I have never met a clean minstrel.

Falcone

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:14 am

And I take no poet seriously unless he is wearing a romance novel shirt with ENORMOUS sleeves.

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:23 am

"I gave my love a chicken that had no bone..."

*WHAMWHAMWHAM*

'...Sorry..."

jester · Post by **jester** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:42 am

I agree with Falcone and Bryce.

I've read that passage several times of the past two days and what I see is both a longing for the good old days and a belief that what is important is to enter the lists and fight well, regardless of how you fare. What matters is the deed, not the outcome.

There's a lot more there. I'm surprised you didn't point out the portion about not knowing yourself unless you have pushed yourself hard in the press of arms.

Good stuff.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:05 am

Sieg, Aw shucks...

Thanks, man. My pleasure.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Sieg · Post by **Sieg** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:37 pm

Go forth and do deeds of honor and renown.

I will submit it tends to be a slightly tennative line when you speak of honor and who is the judge. For in most cases, tourneys and Pas d'Arms, more often than not you are playing to the pleasure of the crowd. And you must hold yourself with high esteem lest you be judged a braggart and coward. In history the judicial duel was between the two combatants and them alone, save god. anything went only one would emerge from the field.

Refereeing and "involved" marshalling is BAD!!!!!!
You are not the one in the armour. You are not the one that stuck the blow or had the blow struck on you. Marshalls are there for the safety of the surronding area and fighters. Let the combatants be judged by their own merits and actions. not by someone who "thinks" they know.

Ohh and Jehan,

One of my coolest memories was when I participated in my first Pas. The Honorable Lordship Bartholemew Hightower of Canterbury did stide forth onto the list and did make his presentation entirely in french, and then repeated it back in english for those of use that were awestruck with his presence. Something I will not soon forget.

After participating in the Pas, I felt like I had been cheated in my SCA experiance. the Pas D'arms is really on so many levels what the SCA is all about. everything else is essential to the game. But there is where the fields of "cloth and gold" really come out.