The Armour Archive

If you look at all the tourney manuals and refer to the usual suspects as source material, you notice that the herald on the tourney field is the primary guardian of precedence and protocol. Someone call me on this if I am wrong.
Imagine then, the disaster if a herald omitted the title or mangled the name of a tennan at tourney. This weekend, I stood at tourney and listened as the heralds repeatedly dropped and /or disregarded the titles of nearly every titled fighter in the lists. One knight , unable to bear it any longer, was heard to exclaim: "Can I hear "Sir" in front of my name just once today?" Come on Guys! As a herald myself, I find it really hard to deal with this laxity.
Heralds have few obligations that attend their station. but the ones they DO have are important.

One: Get their names right. (especially if someone is standing next to you feeding you names)
Two: If they've earned a title, USE IT!!! (same note as above)
Three: Speak up. Especially at tourney. make yourself heard in a way that will not destroy your throat and vocal chords. Sing the words if it helps. Learn to project your voice.

Four: Do what you can to ADD to the pomp and pageantry of the moment. It enhances everybody's experience of the day...yours included.


Baron Hamish

bump

Well, speaking to that particular engagement, I find you are correct that heralds are the keepers of precedence and protocol.
HOWEVER....sorting out the intricacies of who wants to be called what can be MADDENING. Case in point, me.
Most people know (one way or another) who I am so I don't usually put the whole 'Baron Alejandro Mateo Ramirez' etc. I just put 'Alejandro'. Also, many people view me as being arrogant. So I deliberately do not insist on my title.

My own suggestion is that for simplicity's sake, most heralds announce the name as it's written....by the MoLs who put the names on the cards...by transcribing directly from the sign in sheet. I don't blame that particular knight (who is rightfully very proud of his achievement), but I also advise all stout tenans who wish to proclaim their station to sign into the list with the name & title they want to be called.

P.S. - Hamish - "I been married to yer sister for 45 years!"

I must ask, who has said that you are arrogant for insisting upon your title being used? It is no more than common courtesy. Also, you are correct in the statement that the tennans need to be more consistent in what they wish to be called. I , for instance, prefer to use my full name because there is another Hamish in the kingdom and we live in close proximity. (Wee Hamish...which makes me "Really fecking HUGE Hamish")
I prefer my title in the lists and Court because it's more form,al and it reminds me and others that formality should be observed, NO?

H

DWolfhunter wrote:If you look at all the tourney manuals and refer to the usual suspects as source material, you notice that the herald on the tourney field is the primary guardian of precedence and protocol. Someone call me on this if I am wrong.
Imagine then, the disaster if a herald omitted the title or mangled the name of a tennan at tourney. This weekend, I stood at tourney and listened as the heralds repeatedly dropped and /or disregarded the titles of nearly every titled fighter in the lists. One knight , unable to bear it any longer, was heard to exclaim: "Can I hear "Sir" in front of my name just once today?" Come on Guys! As a herald myself, I find it really hard to deal with this laxity.
Heralds have few obligations that attend their station. but the ones they DO have are important.

One: Get their names right. (especially if someone is standing next to you feeding you names)
Two: If they've earned a title, USE IT!!! (same note as above)
Three: Speak up. Especially at tourney. make yourself heard in a way that will not destroy your throat and vocal chords. Sing the words if it helps. Learn to project your voice.

Four: Do what you can to ADD to the pomp and pageantry of the moment. It enhances everybody's experience of the day...yours included.

When I first started the SCA, I almost immediately got thrust into the field heraldry role. I enjoy it and laregly echo your seniments about it - especially the part about being loud. We have the lucky job of helping build the atmosphere at an event.

While I understand the knight's frustrations, I don't think he handled it too well. I remember the first time I heralded and I mangled a fighter's title (calling him an English "Baron" instead of a Svayar "Hesir"). Instead of acting like some pompus ass and griping at me publicly, he begged a boon with me then and there. And quietly he told me of my error.

I was much more of a mind to fix what I had gotten wrong thanks to the way he handled it. If some knight (baron, duke, whomever) heckled me from the field, well - I wouldn't be.

With that said, my only suggestion to the way tourneys are run would be to include two lines for a fighter's name: one as it is written, and one as it sound phonetically. Please don't expect me to be able to pronounce the intricasies of your Japanese, Mongol, Arabic, Persian, Polish, Pig Latin name. Things get to be a pain in the rear with silent letters and long vowels and short vowels.

If I can look down and read out your name and title phonetically, everything goes a lot smoother.

And for God's sake, don't write in cursive. Print things out, please.

Train your own herald, bring him to events, have him do your announcements.

I pretty much agree with you on all points Hamish. But Alejandro does have a point.

As a fighter and sometimes herald (when things NEED to be heard, I have a VERY LOUD voice that carries) I do think each person's title should be used when warranted.

Unfortunately not every "field herald" is a trained field herald. Usually they are just people who want to help and are trying the best they can. And as Alejandro points out if Baron Duke Sir "insert name here" usually goes by "bob" and writes his name on the lists as "Bob" then usually Bob he shall be called, because the field herald is only calling off of a name card. So, unless the MoL know's Bob as Baron Duke Sir "" then he will probably get named as Bob.

I know that in some tournaments because of the amount of participants that to speed things up the sponsors of the list may choose to only offer honorifics during the 1st round and forgo them in the following rounds.

but yes, if you sign your name as Baron duke Sir "" then you should be called Baron Duke Sir "" NOT Bob, even though you are refered to as bob.

When I am the list mistress I always fill out my own cards, and I ask the fighters to tell me exactly how they wish to be announced on the field. That way the cards can be read by both the heralds and myself, and the fighters get announced as they wish to be.

If someone doesn't want to use a title I'll simply point out what others are doing in the list and then let the fighter choose for himself what he wants. I do this also for adding things like, "squire to ...". Most fighters appreciate the reminder, because they are certainly going to be reminded if every other fighter lists their Knight's name but he doesn't.

Regarding the phonetic spelling, if the name needs it I always add it in parentheses. This is something the fighter can help with, since they know how their name usually gets mangled.

In the end, it's up to the fighter. He can help the list mistress, and he can help the herald. Or, as someone said, get your own herald.

Neassa

Edited since I can't seem to remember how to spell...

I have to agree with His Excellency, Baron Alejandro .

I really do not care if I am called by my titles. There are times for it, and time when it doesn't matter. I will give you a for instance.

At a local event with local fighters, I am Odo. They all know me. It doesn't matter. At a pas or crown list. I like to be called with all my titles including transient titles that hold no bearing, like "Duke Odo, son of Hugh, Champion to King Gregory, Knight of the Realm" and any other transient titles that I hold (Champion of <Insert List/Barony/Shire or other recognized tourney here>). But this just isn't neccessary for a typical type of tourney in my opinion.

The last thing is this. If the heralds are calling everyone using their titles, they should do it for everyone. If not, then that is fine too.

Odo

I actually see this as a three fold problem. One with the MOL's and also one with the Heralds, as well with the person being called.

If I am running a tourney, one of the things I make sure of, is that the MOL's have 3x5 cards, and that they ask each participant to write down, legibly how they would like to be called into the list, also as Hugo has said, spell it out also phonetically. If your name is one, where someone, just might mangle it, then show them how it is said.

Some heralds, know folks by name, and give them their title. Some heralds are in small areas of the world, where the normal protocol of a large tourney is not normal for them, and they are used to calling onto the field their buddy down the street, and do not normally have anyone with a title show up to their areas. Also, some heralds are new, and they are nervous enough as is, than to try and remember who is who, and are just trying not to mess up the name and to be heard loud enough for folks to hear.

But please, dont play the Do You Know Who I Am Card. Maybe, just maybe, the person actually doesnt know who you are, and is just reading what they see, cause they dont know anyone there, and are new. So calling them out in public, just probably ruined their first time, trying to be more active. If you want your title said, then be sure the MOL table, who are the ones giving th heralds the names to be said, have your title on the cards when they go out.

All in all, its your responsibilty, to make sure, that if you want your title to be used, for it to be used. Specially when you have some folks who dont want to have their titles used, and just want to go by first name. Just make sure yourself, dont embarrass anyone.

If its on the card, and the heralds just blow by it, and say first name or whatever, then you have room to gripe.

With that said, my only suggestion to the way tourneys are run would be to include two lines for a fighter's name: one as it is written, and one as it sound phonetically. Please don't expect me to be able to pronounce the intricasies of your Japanese, Mongol, Arabic, Persian, Polish, Pig Latin name. Things get to be a pain in the rear with silent letters and long vowels and short vowels.

preach it brotha! I even have one of those galiec all consenents no vowel names so I understand completely. when I sign up to the lists, I always put down O'Seaghdha and the modern phonetics (O'Shea) so the heralds know how to say it.

I had a gentleman ask me this weekend about giving a gift to their majesties in court. He gave me their names, welsh, then started to spell them. I said, "I can write them down correctly, or I can say them in court correctly. You pick." LOL He chose to let me spell them my way, and people HUZZAH'D when I said them correctly. Did I mention they were WELSH?

Cards should be read as written. They should be spelled phonetically. My name, Morgan Buchanan seems simple enough, but I've had heralds mispronounce my last name. We need to be forgiving of heralds to be certain. They too are doing a job that is occasionally difficult with no pay either. LOL But any herald worth their salt would WANT to do it as well as possible. I HATE having names in court that I can't pronounce and nobody can tell me. I hate winging it when I'd rather have a phonetic pronunciation in front of me.

Syr Finn wrote:But please, dont play the Do You Know Who I Am Card. Maybe, just maybe, the person actually doesnt know who you are, and is just reading what they see, cause they dont know anyone there, and are new. So calling them out in public, just probably ruined their first time, trying to be more active. If you want your title said, then be sure the MOL table, who are the ones giving th heralds the names to be said, have your title on the cards when they go out.

Any use of the "Don't you know who I am card" is one too many. It ill befits a Peer to do that with anyone. I also agree that the MOLs write the cards out and should be cognizant of how a fighter is styled and how his name is pronounced.
In the end however, I would also posit that someone ( and it may very well be me at the next university) needs to teach the heralds to recognise who the Peers in their kingdom are and be able to call them into the lists by statiion and name. In the ancient times, when fish had fur and rocks were soft and our ancestors left the water to walk upon the dry land, a herald would ( and was sometimes required to) blazon all the kingdom arms, the personal and kingdom arms of the principle officers of state and many of the arms of the peers as well. To say nothing of being able to blazon their own, their ladies' and their patron/peer/sponsor if they had one.
Perhaps a pamphlet with the arms of those worthies would be a useful thing for all the heralds and MOLs...hmmmmmmmmmmm.

H

DWolfhunter wrote:Perhaps a pamphlet with the arms of those worthies would be a useful thing for all the heralds and MOLs... hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Set it up like a nature book. "Duke Cuan is easy to spot with his blue and gold checkered device. Beware what you say about the kings claim to the thrown around Duke Cuan as he is know to splatter the walls with the blood of those who contests the kings right to rule"

In all seriousness that is a good idea but I imagine it would also be time consuming.

Asbjorn Johansen wrote:Train your own herald, bring him to events, have him do your announcements.

yep.
In addition to getting exactly what you want...


It's more medievaler.

James-
The nature book idea is not a bad one actually...but the rest... um NO. I think If I am going to piss a super duke off it'll be the one I was squired to..and not one in my new home. M'kay?

Oh come on, Hamish.

Dont you think it would be great to write a passage for your new king, something like this.

"Duke Michael of Bedford, can be easily picked out by the horns sticking out of his helm, and tail sticking out of his cape on his surcoat. Also seems to have the odd occurence of always having flames in the background whereever he is. He can also be seen with his little imp, Innogen, who will bite your kneecaps off if he orders it."



And yes, I do expect to be paid back for this, from his Grace himself when I see him next. But well couldn't pass up the chance, when so many think of him this way.

Though for those that do not know, I was once his squire, so I guess a little of it has rubbed off.

Finn-

None of the "devil-dukes" of my acquaintance were ever so black as they've been painted over the years. If I want that much trouble...I will challenge them directly. That way at least, I will truly deserve the beating I have bargained for.


All kidding aside, I just think it might be a useful tool to have a "field guide to the fighting peerage of Atlantia" to pass out to heralds and MOls and suchlike. One for AE would be amusing also...

DWolfhunter wrote:James-
The nature book idea is not a bad one actually...but the rest... um NO. I think If I am going to piss a super duke off it'll be the one I was squired to..and not one in my new home. M'kay?

Nature book idea aside (although that might be funny as a primer), done right as a Boke of Tourneyers it would be cool, and good practice for young scribes. Say, 3 versions. A 'nature book' pamphlet, easily photocopied and handed out. A 'bound version' a little harder to copy, but much more cool. And the UBER version, properly illuminated and written, with the names of Grete Tourneyers and such blazoned, armed, and pictured.

P.S. - I think it would be double double cool to have pictured those who excel at *all* martial sports. "Here is the grete archr Captayne of the North, Sir Tnek" etc.

Alejandro

Bah your no fun.

It is a good idea, probably could get a list order of precedence and work from that, by bouncing it off of the Heraldry site, and getting the devices done correctly for each also.

It would be a tremendous help, I am sure.

One of the things I love, that Atlantia does, as well as some of the other kingdoms, is the list trees for Crowns. It always looks great, and adds to the tourney. Was looking over some past pics of the past crowns in Atlantia, to see some folks I knew.

The last tournament I attended, I marshalled. I also had to act as my own herald through all of the rounds I was in a list. Truely, I find this disquieting: there seems to be a noteable lack of volunteers to field herald, never mind pronoucing the names of the combatants and getting all titles, etc. right.

Maybe when my Doctor tells me my fighting days are over, I'll work on solving this problem.

Mord.

Boy, y'all're rough on your heralds back east. Out here, only fighting-related titles are anounced in the lists. Holders of AoA or GoA level fighting awards may be Lord/Lady or THL in the lists; all other holders of AoA/GoA - bzzt, thanks for playing, next contestant please. Likewise with peerages.

As a field herald, I try to call people by thier proper title. (or in the manner they wish to be styled). But if you write "Gareth" on the card, and I'm calling the fighters to the field, I have no idea if it is His grace Gaerth Le bruin, or some new guy.

Further, I am not able to memorize the whole OP. If you get peeved that I dont know that you are a court baron, it is your fault. Let me know that you are a court baron, and you might hear "His excellency John smith, Baron of the court of meridies" if you dont, you'll hear "John smith, armed gentle of worth"

And finally, If your name is Hruevkargen, and it is pronounced "Bob" Let me fricken know. I can be counted on to pronounce english. (i personally might be able to not butcher japanese, and will revert to classical latin) I dont know that MH is pronounced V in ancient watoongie, welsh or portugreek. I cannot know what l;etters are silent in a language that is no lionger spoken. I applaud yo for picking a creative name, and being honest to your persona's culture. but i do have limits.

-+G

Baron Alejandro wrote:

DWolfhunter wrote:James-
The nature book idea is not a bad one actually...but the rest... um NO. I think If I am going to piss a super duke off it'll be the one I was squired to..and not one in my new home. M'kay?

Nature book idea aside (although that might be funny as a primer), done right as a Boke of Tourneyers it would be cool, and good practice for young scribes. Say, 3 versions. A 'nature book' pamphlet, easily photocopied and handed out. A 'bound version' a little harder to copy, but much more cool. And the UBER version, properly illuminated and written, with the names of Grete Tourneyers and such blazoned, armed, and pictured.

P.S. - I think it would be double double cool to have pictured those who excel at *all* martial sports. "Here is the grete archr Captayne of the North, Sir Tnek" etc.

Alejandro

That would be utterly amazing.

Syr Finn wrote:Bah your no fun.

It is a good idea, probably could get a list order of precedence and work from that, by bouncing it off of the Heraldry site, and getting the devices done correctly for each also.

It would be a tremendous help, I am sure.

Speaking as Æthelmearc's precedence herald, I feel I should note that one of the lists available on the kingdom precedence web site is, in fact, by order of precedence everyone presently living in the kingdom, *and* it includes a link to their registration in the online Ordinary and Armorial.

Also, there is a roll of arms web site for the kingdom (linked off the main kingdom heraldry page), which, at least as of its creation, has the arms of all citizens of the kingdom that the author (not me, in this case) had available clip-art to generate it from (which did not, include, sadly, rabbits with swords and bagpipes, to note a singular example).

So, anyone who really wanted this project actually has pretty much all the tools and information to get going on it ... Not me, though, I've already got too many other jobs.

Syr Finn wrote:One of the things I love, that Atlantia does, as well as some of the other kingdoms, is the list trees for Crowns. It always looks great, and adds to the tourney. Was looking over some past pics of the past crowns in Atlantia, to see some folks I knew.

Æthelmearc has it too, though I'm not sure I've seen it used at the past few Crowns; I think the people who created it handed it off to persons less zealous than themselves.

I thought I had seen them before, Koredono. But wasnt sure if I was just getting senile or what. But like you said, havent seen them in a few crowns, so wasnt sure if I was just imagining things.

The bad part, IMO.. this weekend the MOLs did write the titles of the fighters on the cards. The only thing the herald had to do was read the cards and he had a very hard time with that.

I can understand that knight's frustation this weekend, especially since he was wearing a white belt and it was written on the card. He only said something after the herald had used some title for his opponent (for the 5th or 6th time) while omitting his.

FWIW, this same herald, despite being told and having it on a card.. and Malcolm was wearing the Heirs tabard (it was very obvious).. didn't use Malcolm's title either. Someone else corrected him.. and he stopped and looked and said I should have noticed that myself, from looking at his tabard.

I believe this was his first time being a field herald and I believe he was trying his best, he just did a really poor job. He also kept standing in front of her Majesty or myself, after announcing the fighters.. Eventually, someone greeted me using my title and he turned around shocked.. and from that point forward made a point of stepping a bit to the side, so I could watch the fighting. He also started making a point of having the other (not fighting at the time) fighters step to the side as well (which was nice).

I have no problem with a marshal or someone doing their job blocking my view, especially if it's just temporary.. but it is irrating especially when you are there to watch and pick a champion, to have multiple people, all day long entirely block your view, just because they aren't paying attention. Spectators doing this, IMO.. is the most irrating..

BTW, when I marshal and I notice that fighters are blocking the spectators from watching anything, often when they can still watch the fight just as well (or close enough) by stepping to the side or kneeling.. and allow the spectators to watch, too.. I try to politely point that out. I think too many times (IMO) fighters tune out everything except the fighting.. forgetting that there are other people who would like to watch. The vast majority are fine with moving, only a couple have ever given me grief about this.

Sorry I went off subject..

Tessa

The vast majority of heralds are well intentioned volunteers whom we should encourage and go out of our way not to embarass via public commentary. In almost all cases, if they are screwing up or doing a bad job it is because they are either new, untrained, confused, nervous in public, made a mistake (don't we all) or because they were not given the proper information (a fighter's title for example) or because the fighter chose a name without enough vowels (Welsh names come to mind). If you take them aside and with a smile let them know about an issue you have, they tend to fall all over themselves trying to correct it.

There is the rare herald who is a jerk, but they are rare. I can only think of one herald that purposely and repeatedly insulted a large number of fighters on purpose, his name shall not be repeated here as the matter was dealt with eventually by his knight.

As far as blocking the view of the spectators? Yes, it is to be avoided. But sometimes to see what is going on in a fight, you simply do end up blocking some people's views. I find taking one knee sometimes helps the spectators to see, while still allowing you to move if necessary.

If we spent more time encouraging and thanking the good heralds, and training those that are not good and thanking them for trying, this might not be as much of a problem. A lot of fighters seem to treat the heralds as a necessary evil rather than a valuable volunteer. A shame really. They add to the pagentry and help us all to look good while keeping the crowd informed and to a degree, entertained.

We sometimes end up with Marshals having to act as heralds due to a lack of qualified and useful heralds. And frankly, a lot of the marshals including myself, don't do a great job as heralds at times. So the more good heralds we have, the better it is for everyone.

Overall, like everything else in our society, we need to be sure that our critisizm is constructive, and taken as such. No, sometimes someones doesn't ASK for advice and they need it. THey need to learn to accept the advice. Hell, it's ok to have a filter. You don't have to listen to EVERYTHING EVERYONE tell you. But you should at least hear it and think about it.

As an example, I've been fighting a few years, and I'm not too bad. I'll listen to ANYONE who wants to tell me what I should be doing differently. I may not DO it, but I'll listen and hear what they say. But if I'm taking on something I've never done before, like say glass beads or casting, I bet the likelyhood that I do what I'm told is MUCH higher.

Likewise when we foster a person into any new activity, even if they've been around a while, they need to be ACTUALLY FOSTERED and that means having the conversation about constructive critisizm before hand. It seems to go better.

This is one of the reasons I love you Ceddie. You are a master of the language. Are you the one who taught me the verb, to caligle? "meaning the act of caligraphy"

Ceddie wrote:It's more medievaler.

Syr Finn wrote:I thought I had seen them before, Koredono. But wasnt sure if I was just getting senile or what.

I can't vouch for your senility or lack thereof; maybe too many head shots?

Syr Finn wrote:But like you said, havent seen them in a few crowns, so wasnt sure if I was just imagining things.

The wheels are already turning to find them, and have them at Crown next month. And to make sure that everyone who's a combattant with registered arms has a a shield for the tree.

Servus!

To echo his Excellencies comments - nothing is more irritating than a herald that doesn't get it right.

At Spring Crown here in D'Wald, we had a field herald that not only mispronounced everyone's names, he assigned everyone a different title every other bout and spoke to his shoes. Sir Wiglaf and I were marshaling at the field that he heralded and tried to tell him to take a break, give someone else a chance, etc. but to no avail. Eventually, someone had to get angry at him before he decided to let someone else take over.

I had initially written a list of things that could be done to improve teh situation, but everyone here has beaten me to the ideas I had!

InsaneIrish wrote:I pretty much agree with you on all points Hamish. But Alejandro does have a point.

As a fighter and sometimes herald (when things NEED to be heard, I have a VERY LOUD voice that carries) I do think each person's title should be used when warranted.

Unfortunately not every "field herald" is a trained field herald. Usually they are just people who want to help and are trying the best they can. And as Alejandro points out if Baron Duke Sir "insert name here" usually goes by "bob" and writes his name on the lists as "Bob" then usually Bob he shall be called, because the field herald is only calling off of a name card. So, unless the MoL know's Bob as Baron Duke Sir "" then he will probably get named as Bob.

I know that in some tournaments because of the amount of participants that to speed things up the sponsors of the list may choose to only offer honorifics during the 1st round and forgo them in the following rounds.

but yes, if you sign your name as Baron duke Sir "" then you should be called Baron Duke Sir "" NOT Bob, even though you are refered to as bob.

i always heared you werent suppose to stack titles, for example
duke sir master jimmy would just be duke jimmy. is this correct?

You get what you pay for.

If you are complaining about a free service, consider hiring your own herald, etc...

Or develop a working relationship with a herald.

For example, befriend a member of your household, someone who you invite to the weekly grill party and fighter practice, even though they don't fight. Get them outfitted with tabard with your heraldry, horn and some excellent stories of heralds.

I find that when people are expected to pay for a service that was free, they suddenly lower their standards.

I cried Geoffrey of Wigmore, servant of Sir Phillipe de Padmiers, onto the field at the Bloodstone Keep Pas d'Armes in Littleton Colorado last year.

I made sure he was the last man cried onto the field of honor, and then I said in a voice that I learned in Army Basic Training and two college theatre courses: "The last shall be first, now comes Geoffrey of Wigmore, vassal of the Knight, Phillipe de Padmiers of the Midrealm, with sword and bloody constraint against all who oppose that the lady Lorelei de Pelham is the fairest lady present!"

Then I made sure he was the first man out at the barrier.

And I stood near him to make sure that he was well cried throughout the remainder of the day, and that any interfacing between the people running the deeds and he was attended to, and that nobody would have to wait for him because he didn't know he was next onto the field.

For this I was given an aluminum shield blank, which I transmitted to a new participant who desired to enter into a life of deeds. Not by Geoffrey, but by a knightly participant who felt that I had done such a job as he would like be done for anyone.

EDIT: Moral of the story is: cry well, someone is always watching.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org