It's official- Merideans hit light!

LR of E · Post by **LR of E** » Wed May 03, 2006 7:34 am

So somebody told me that according to Society regs, any piece of armor that is required as minimum must have padding of some kind. The only thing I could find was that if it's leather it must have padding which most of our (meridies) half-gauntlets and gorgets are. I couldn't find if this applies to metal armor as well Anybody??

Morgan

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Wed May 03, 2006 8:41 am

Can someone post, word for word, the entry from Pop Chiv? I just became a Sustaining Member (so I could get a Pop Chiv), but I wont get one until May. I emailed Sir Shaltar asking for the new rulings and the reasonings behind them as I would like to comply, but am at this point ignorant. What is this exactly about padding out half gauntlets and behind the shield protection?

broinnfinn · Post by **broinnfinn** » Wed May 03, 2006 10:09 am

Sir Mord wrote:"Lanyards suck"

Then maybe you're using the lanyard wrong. I've been using a lanyard for years, and it's never given me any trouble.

Mord.

That's what I was thinking.

If you even notice your lanyard, then you're doing something wrong.

Broinnfinn

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed May 03, 2006 10:17 am

I couldn't find if this applies to metal armor as well Anybody?

Accoring to the book if it's steel it probly doesn't have to be padded.
Problem is you get this "or equivilent " in almost everything.

That combined with half the guys inspecting not knowing the rules, and lil kingdom quirks and "well Sir Goferdabeer said..... couple years ago" and the infamous "well we always dun it dat way" you end up with 10 inspections having 12 sets of "rules"

Then ad that most of the regs were originaly written more than 15 years ago and don't take into account the passage of time and you end up with one big confusing mess to most people.

Thats why you gotta carry the book to inspection half the time :roll:

Some non fighter knob will tell ya that a 20 ga fauld doesn't pass (IT'S NOT EVER REQUIRED) or that you _have_ to wear hockey pads under your stainless arms because it's required. Then he palm strikes ya in the face to "check your chinstrap"

again ... :roll:

'cording to the SCA marshalte site the last update of the armour rules (01)
Says you have to pad your helm (well duh)
Says you have to pad a leather kidney belt
says you have to pad a leather gorget
says you have to pad a full guantlet or have it distribute the force of impact an all that

Joits, says ridigid material and padding or equivelent.

Here's da link

http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/com ... ndards.pdf

BTW glad i re read the Kingdom rules

"The use of a boot or shoestring, leather thong, or cord as a chinstrap is prohibited."
Buncha helms will be failin i bet.

as for paddin half guantlets

Meridian kingdom site says

"ii. A basket hilt made of rigid material with enough bars or plates to prevent a blow from striking the fingers or the back of the hand. If a basket hilt is used, supplemental protection (usually in the form of a half-gauntlet of metal or heavy leather backed with foam) is required to cover the back of the hand and wrist, including the lowest joint of the thumb."

Half guantlet of metal _OR_ padded leather.

Mine are 16 ga steel plates on 12 oz leather.

""Lanyards suck"

Then maybe you're using the lanyard wrong. I've been using a lanyard for years, and it's never given me any trouble.

Mord.

That's what I was thinking.

If you even notice your lanyard, then you're doing something wrong.

Broinnfinn"

Tried em hated it, dam annoying thing flopping around on my wrist. Got a trigger in the grip, thats been fine for years. All the sudden it's a safety concern, lanyards still suck.

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Wed May 03, 2006 10:27 am

Having started SCA in Meridies and now in Gleann Abhann, I would agree that we are on the bottom of the calibration scale. I personally think that we need to up our calibrations.

We are actively trying to address our calibrations in GA. We NEVER want to be a very heavy calling kingdom, but we do agree that our shots could use some more force and calling needs to be a bit higher.

I know that I personally am guilty of calling light shots. Hell, I called a leg shot that was on the back of my knee in tourney last week. I called it because it was the end of a beautifully executed combo and I should have blocked it. I need to readjust my thinking that it was not a good shot. I take nice clean shots that are not always very hard. I have 11 years of habits to work through.

The point I guess is that we are in the minority and we are addressing it. It will take some time, but I know it will be better for us in the long run.

On another note a GA knight did this experiment this last Gulf Wars. He went out and fought pickups in a GA tabard and had trouble with people calling his blows. He fought without it and did not have any trouble.
So it is not just that we need to change our mentality, but others need to change theirs as well. Fight each person as an individual and do not assume that because someone is from a certain kingdom that they can not hit you hard enough to kill you.

Uric

LR of E · Post by **LR of E** » Wed May 03, 2006 10:31 am

"The use of a boot or shoestring, leather thong, or cord as a chinstrap is prohibited."
Buncha helms will be failin i bet.

Don't confuse this, because I did while doing some inspections.

You can't use those things as a "Chinstrap" but can use them to secure your chinstrap. Although I don't recommend it personally.

Morgan

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Wed May 03, 2006 10:41 am

Can someone post, word for word, the entry from Pop Chiv?
Word for word:

"Greetings from the Earl Marshall

The most consistent armor problem I saw last year, was people having no thumb protection behind thier centergrip shields. Fix it! We need to put lanyards on all one handed weapons! You will have to the end of May to have them fixed. Also Meridies calls shots lighter then the Kingdoms surrounding it. If your authorization card has been issued by Meridies, you will call your shots by meredean standards. If you do not wish to do this, please send me your authorization card and buy a comfortable chair.
You all try not to be a bunch of stupies!

Best wishes,
Shaltar
"

The gorget/gauntlet padding issue was mentioned at dreamstone, but has not appeared in a pop chiv (at least since january, which was the oldest one I could find)

-+G
(This post was not intended to be be negative commentary on Meridies, or its fighting culture. No warranties express or implied, all rights reserved)

Sinclair Hawkins · Post by **Sinclair Hawkins** » Wed May 03, 2006 2:02 pm

Sir Mord wrote:"Lanyards suck"

Then maybe you're using the lanyard wrong. I've been using a lanyard for years, and it's never given me any trouble.

Mord.

I am with you in this. I have never had a short lanyard cause me a problem and more than once in a melee I have lost a weapons and because of a lanyard, gotten it quickly back into my hand.

Not to mention the increased safety to the near crowd. This worries me more at Demo's than events but it is a concern nonetheless.

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Wed May 03, 2006 2:22 pm

does anyone even read through rules to see if they make sense? i mean we have some stupid rules in atlantia and i hope one day they will all be addressed but how much protection do you guys think the back of hte hand requires?

and sinclair is wrong. lanyards do suck!

regards
logan

Meridian kingdom site says

"ii. A basket hilt made of rigid material with enough bars or plates to prevent a blow from striking the fingers or the back of the hand. If a basket hilt is used, supplemental protection (usually in the form of a half-gauntlet of metal or heavy leather backed with foam) is required to cover the back of the hand and wrist, including the lowest joint of the thumb

Patton Lives · Post by **Patton Lives** » Wed May 03, 2006 3:31 pm

I guess this will make single handed swords illegal at the combat of 30 if they enforce the lanyard's at Pennsic

Gee, I wonder how often lanyards were used in medieval deeds of arms?

Patton Lives · Post by **Patton Lives** » Wed May 03, 2006 3:34 pm

If you do not wish to do this, please send me your authorization card and buy a comfortable chair.

Hah, I'll bet they'll make you pad your chair too, and put a lanyard on it!

VladsKremlin · Post by **VladsKremlin** » Wed May 03, 2006 3:56 pm

I moved to Meridies from Atlantia, and being warned about the calibration differences I asked people to talk to me about their feelings on how I fought before and after the fight.

So far I haven't had any addressed problems.

I personally do like it when calibration levels are a bit higher, just because I don't have to question whether or not something was good or an accident. However, I don't mind playing a different way either.

Having played other sports, sometimes we played rough sometimes not. It was really all about who was there.

Vladimir Davidovich

Moose · Post by **Moose** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:01 pm

Murdock wrote:Meridian kingdom site says

"ii. A basket hilt made of rigid material with enough bars or plates to prevent a blow from striking the fingers or the back of the hand. If a basket hilt is used, supplemental protection (usually in the form of a half-gauntlet of metal or heavy leather backed with foam) is required to cover the back of the hand and wrist, including the lowest joint of the thumb."

Half guantlet of metal _OR_ padded leather.

You changed the quote in your response. It does not say "padded leather".

Basically it look like a badly written algebra problem. Does it say half-gauntlet of (metal or heavy leather) (backed with foam) or half-gauntlet of (metal) or (heavy leather backed with foam). It could be interpreted either way. Personally I think it it the first one, but I have been wrong before.

It all depends on which sylLAble you place the emPHAsis.

Radu

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:19 pm

I will concur that it is poorly written.

A half gaunlet (or metal or heavy leather) backed with foam

OR

A half gauntlet of metal or heavy leather, the latter of which must be backed with foam.

Now does this mean we must use foam? or is the term "usually" mean that other things are ok?

-+G
(This is not a slight on the grammar or writing style of meridies)

Patton Lives · Post by **Patton Lives** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:37 pm

if they are saying we have to pad metal gauntlets with foam then the entire system is screwed

these rules musta been penned by someone that has stock in a company that makes camping foam, theres no other rationale behind it.

Clinker · Post by **Clinker** » Thu May 04, 2006 8:33 pm

Then maybe you're using the lanyard wrong. I've been using a lanyard for years, and it's never given me any trouble.

But has it ever done you any good?

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Thu May 04, 2006 8:46 pm

This is the email I received from Sir Shaltar. I am including the message that I wrote him as well so that there would be no confusion.

Hi Oswynn!
You need lanyards on all your one handed weapons, and a padded cloth gorget if you are wearing an aventail. Of course if you arent wearing an aventail you need a ridgid padded gorget. If you are fighting with a center grip shield you need to make sure you have proper hand protection on your shield hand! These are rules that have always been but have been misinterpretid.

Best wishes: Sir Shaltar

> > Dear Sir Shaltar,
> > I have heard that in your letter in the April Popular Civalry, you
> > outlined some new rules for armoured combat in Meridies. I have just
> > recently become a member but will not be getting the April Pop Chiv (got
> > membership near the end of April). I was wondering exactly what these
> > new rules are so that I may comply with them. Thank you very much.
> >
> > Oswyn Haddock

Notice that the only mention of padding was for an aventail. Nothing about gauntlets (and he responded on the afternoon of May 3).

Aidan Cambel · Post by **Aidan Cambel** » Thu May 04, 2006 9:10 pm

http://www.meridies.org/marshal/meridia ... k_2002.pdf

i. Gauntlets of heavy leather lined with closed cell foam or heavy padding. A hockey glove, well constructed and in good repair, is considered the equivalent.

Guenievre · Post by **Guenievre** » Thu May 04, 2006 9:31 pm

Drachus wrote:I guess this will make single handed swords illegal at the combat of 30 if they enforce the lanyard's at Pennsic Gee, I wonder how often lanyards were used in medieval deeds of arms?

Wellll... they were certainly an option. To quote Rene d'Anjou:

"And you may, if you wish, attach a light chain, braid or cord to your sword or mace around the arm, or to your belt, so that if it escapes your hand you can recover it before it falls to the ground."

(for context see http://www.princeton.edu/~ezb/rene/renebook.html#Mace)

So I don't see any problem with having a lanyard on a sword...

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Thu May 04, 2006 9:53 pm

i. Gauntlets of heavy leather lined with closed cell foam or heavy padding. A hockey glove, well constructed and in good repair, is considered the equivalent

Thats for fulll guantlets

halfs are the next

"ii. A basket hilt made of rigid material with enough bars or plates to prevent a blow from striking the fingers or the back of the hand. If a basket hilt is used, supplemental protection (usually in the form of a half-gauntlet of metal or heavy leather backed with foam) is required to cover the back of the hand and wrist, including the lowest joint of the thumb."

and as Moose pointed out a lack of puncuation here
"(usually in the form of a half-gauntlet of metal or heavy leather backed with foam) "

Makes it unclear weather netal halfs have to be padded as well as leather or wheathre metal halfs are acceptable instead of padded leather.

Wih shouldn't matter anyway cuse it's silly to pad a half under a basket hilt or shield. It's redundant, why not pad the basket too?

Aidan Cambel · Post by **Aidan Cambel** » Fri May 05, 2006 9:41 am

yeah i actually meant to cut and paste both sections i. and ii. but i apparently didn't cut and paste it right - i was viewing the pdf format and sometimes the c&p function in adobe reader messes up. >shrug<

I was posting it for the reference to the leather section, to point out that backing the leather with foam is not a current rule. This version was written in 2002, and if I am not mistaken this was not a new addition to that version. I believe it was word for word what the 2000 version had. My involvement doesn't go back any further than that, so I am unsure what was there before 2000.

We've gotten away with unpadded leather halfs for a long time, but its not a new rule that just came up.

raito · Post by **raito** » Fri May 05, 2006 10:05 am

Murdock wrote:halfs are the next

Makes it unclear weather netal halfs have to be padded as well as leather or wheathre metal halfs are acceptable instead of padded leather.

Wih shouldn't matter anyway cuse it's silly to pad a half under a basket hilt or shield. It's redundant, why not pad the basket too?

Well, I read and compared the Meridan stuff with the Society stuff. I prefer Society's use of the term 'partial gauntlet', instead of the Meridian 'half gauntlet'. Society seems to make clear that partial gauntlets are just gauntlets missing the pieces that are covered by the basket. Ergo, under Society, a partial gauntlet of metal must also be padded or transfer force to the object being grasped.

As for why not pad the basket, that's because it already transfers the force.

One could argue that because Kingdom's can only be more restrictive, not less, than Society, that Society's rule is correct in this case.

Personally, I think it's just a poor job of restating the Society regs.

Clinker · Post by **Clinker** » Sat May 06, 2006 11:03 am

I lived in Little Rock many years ago, so I fought in Calontir, Ansteorra and Meridies. Meridean fighters, especially the newer ones, tended to society minimums for armor. Therefore, it was considered courteous not to beat the livin' crap out of a bare skinned opponent.

That was NOT the case in Ansteorra, which also had a lot of minimum armor guys. They beat each other black and blue. Seemingly, the winner of the tourney had exactly one less bruise than the second place guy. They would even call light shots on bare skin. I won a single-sword event by the expedient of smacking all opponents on the unarmored forearm to literally disable them, because they wouldn't accept any other killing blow I threw. Acceptance of thrusting was cranked up to levels that I publicly refused to go to, which caused some trouble. I put it down to a culture difference, maybe due to a lot of young soldiers in their ranks. (Imagine my dismay when seemingly the entire Ansteorran court appeared in Europe a few years later. Armoured Cav you know.)

I brought this up to the (local) Tennessee knights, and while they were concerned that I adhere to the local expectations, they just shrugged off the differences in force levels. I guess not much has changed.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Sat May 06, 2006 12:05 pm

I'm curious when you experienced this in Ansteorra.

Marvin · Post by **Marvin** » Sat May 06, 2006 1:02 pm

Must have been forever and a day ago. I've been fighting in this area almost 20 years now and, to my best memory, Ansteorra has required forearm protection since I started. Almost didn't get to play in my first tournament there because I didn't own vambraces.

Last time I fought in Ansteorra, I didn't notice much calibration varience at all with northern Gleann Abhann. Notice it a little with the guys from Calontir, but the difference is slight and easy to adjust to.

Patton Lives · Post by **Patton Lives** » Sat May 06, 2006 6:30 pm

note also that Revival Poleaxe heads arent allowed in Meridies, and neither are Kong dog toy maces.

this kingdom hath been Nerfed!!!!!

Clinker · Post by **Clinker** » Thu May 11, 2006 1:33 am

That would have been 1984, half a lifetime ago. Interesting the persistence of some things.

We re-started the Shire of Small Grey Bear after it lapsed around 1981, and struggled to maintain shire status. Arkansas was pretty much off-the-map then. I was off to Drachenwald in 1986. Visited again in 1989, and Small Grey Bear was cranking up in size and importance. Wouldn't recognize it now. A Barony? A new Kingdom? Amazing what a few dedicated and charismatic people can do.

Marvin · Post by **Marvin** » Thu May 11, 2006 7:37 am

Dude, you soooo have to talk to our local historian. We've got some of the early documents ('79-'81 period), but we've lost most of the records from the '81-'85 period. Some of the people who were active during that time are totally lost to us - we simply don't know who they were. We usually have to rely on my or Sonny's memories to correct stuff if it came before 1990 or so. After that we have a lot more paper and Viscountess Gabrielle - who never, ever forgets anything.

When I first became 'official' in '88 or so, the then-seneschal pulled me aside and asked me if I would take an office - because otherwise we didn't have enough people to be legal as a shire. When I became Baronial seneschal in the mid-'90s I had to put together a members roster. It was 115 people. I understand it is grown even more in the last 10 years.

broinnfinn · Post by **broinnfinn** » Thu May 11, 2006 9:55 am

Marvin wrote:When I first became 'official' in '88 or so, the then-seneschal pulled me aside and asked me if I would take an office - because otherwise we didn't have enough people to be legal as a shire. When I became Baronial seneschal in the mid-'90s I had to put together a members roster. It was 115 people. I understand it is grown even more in the last 10 years.

It must have been early '88, because by the time I moved down there, September 1988, there were plenty of folks in the shire. We just had a hard time keeping officers. The growth was steady, but not really meteoric.

The latest census on SGB (from the principality turnover) was, I believe, 128 PAID memberships. I think we vacillate a bit around that number, but the general trend is upward. We are now about equal in size to Grey Niche - the memberships are so close that who is bigger entirely depends on the renewal cycle we are in.

Bri.

knoch · Post by **knoch** » Wed May 17, 2006 2:25 pm

I agree with needing Lanyards When I moved here I was shocked that they were not REQ. I Disagreee with them being Discouged to hit lighter. I feel that it is the older Fighters who encourage this not the newer ones. They think they will not be able to keep up if REQ to hit hard all the time. I come from the West and now live in Meridies and reside in Thors Mountain. I have Fought Shaltar and never had to much problem with his power. Not Impresed much with it Either. As for turning in My Fighters Card I could if I wanted to I still have my WESTY Card and it will be a cold day in Heck that I give that one up.

from Knoch
A Lost Westy