What's up with the King of Meridies?

[InsaneIrish]

Don't wear it across yoru chest and under one arm though, unless you have been awarded rank of Provost or Hauptmann in your Fahnlein!

totally off topic but I have recently been trying to compare Landsknect officer and rank with SCA rank and award structure. It is very interesting.

[Mateo]

I dislike the idea that having a legitimate criticism of this crown is tantamount to whineing. In fact, I find arguments like that to be insulting. It is not whineing to say "This is not right", especially when something not-right is going on. Don't get me wrong - there are whiners in rapier armor. They exist in Armor as well. I play on both fields, I see them both when I play.

No one here is arguing that the King doesn't have the power to do what he did. Everyone here recognizes that unfortunate reality (or not unfortunate, to some). No one here is doubting the structure of this game. We all recognize it.

The complaint here is that doing such a thing seems to be lacking in Chivalry, provides a poor example of chivalric behaivior to others, hurts a large group of people who play this game, and sets back any progress towards acceptance of rapier into the wider culture of Meridies.

Do you win crown in order to excercise the power of your whim, or do you win crown in order to serve your kingdom? Which is greater?

To the Eldormerian Royal Peer above - Thank you, your Excellency (Grace?) for supporting your fighters by getting authorized. You may not even realize what you did for your community by just showing up and participating.


Edit - I forgot one thing - most White Scarves don't give a hot damn when "scarved" Orders from other kingdoms take Cadets. The Midrealm does it, Meridies did it, and I think the East does it as well.

[adamstjohn]

Count Gerhard of Drachenwald, for the six months he was King, hardly fought in armour at all. But if there was a fencing tourney anywhere near his vicinity, he was in the thick of it, giving it his all.

By God, the fencers loved him for it.

[Broadway]

I dislike the idea that having a legitimate criticism of this crown is tantamount to whineing. In fact, I find arguments like that to be insulting.

Do you have a legitimate criticism? If it is up to the King to decide what he does or does not want to do, regardless of your opinion of what is right, then how is your criticism legitimate?

It is not whineing to say "This is not right", especially when something not-right is going on.

Again... if it is right, for the King to do what he did, according to the rules of the SCA, then how is it "not right"?

I am not being retorical. I would really like to know, how you justify your reasoning.

[St. George]

[
Look at it this way. Say you have a roman Persona and are a Fencer. Your persona would have worn a white scarf (Roman Legionaries wore white scarfs to stop the chaffing of their armour) Should you wear the scarf anyway because it is appropiate to your persona even though you have not earned the accolade?

The accolade is the "final blow" that a gentle receives before becoming a Knight, not a scarf, belt etc. Do white scarves really receive accolades? If so, who delivers them?

Alaric

[Jean Paul de Sens]

I guess the question would be do you wear it outside your cloths as part of your garb or under your garb?
IF, you chain looks something like a knights chain (long with large links etc.) and you display it outside your clothing then in essence you are breaking the rules. Even though you are not a fighter, but rules still apply.

It's part of my garb and it's more a necklace then a long chain.
What would you suggest for women playing german renaissance to wear?

and ... ahem ... I do see myself as a fighter. A light one, who can't be a knight, but a fighter nethertheless.

Honestly, and I wear german so understand the look desired, the simple answer for both you and Aiden is

Adorn it. Put a slight adornment on the chain. It will not detract from the look, and fulfill the requirements.

Sumptuary laws are one on the things that the SCA voluntary does from its members to its other members to allow recognition for work and effort.

How would people feel if I wore chain with a pelican in its piety on it and justified it with a "well, I saw this picture that showed it".

JP

[St. George]

OK totally second hand here, but I have heard there is a lot more to this issue than has been put out here.

My understanding is that HRM in trying to support the Kingdom fencing order, which is not a White Scarf Treaty Order, asked the 6 or so members to come up with suitable regalia, addresses, etc. He gave them a set time period in which to do it, and my understanding is that they did not come up with anything suitable in double that time period.

Again, what I heard, is that in semi-protest, or something, that the members of this group began wearing armbands that the King found unsuitable, and even after being asked, requested by the King to stop wearing them, and to please come up with the titlage and regalia, they continued to wear the armband/scarves (against his request) and again failed to come to a consensus on suitable titlage and regalia.

After this, HRM stated that he would no longer support fencing, as they could not get their act together, etc, and then disrespected his request.

My understanding is that there are only 6 or so members of this Order, which suggests that they should fairly easily have been able to communicate and come up with title/regalia in the alloted time.

Is this close to what happened? Can someone please clarify this information?

Thanks,

Alaric, Dux

[Syrfinn]

What, another side to the story. Damn!

<stomps off, throwing his torch and pitchfork to the ground>

[Maeryk]

<stomps off, throwing his torch and pitchfork to the ground>

Smokey the Bear says "only you can prevent forest fires!"

and proceeds to club you with the torch.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

The only part of that story that I can legitimize (not knowing anything else) is that there are very few Meridan Order of the Blade (MOB's). I was under the understanding (my personal opinion/view here), that they were wearing special armbands and sashes (over one shoulder and across the body) that denoted them as MOB's. They were not white scarves (if I remember correctly, they are black with stars and a rapier in some sort of arraingement). 6-7 sounds about right (I am almost certain there are under 10). I have not heard anything else about this story, but know that the MOB was established before Godwine's reign and appears to an outsider to have regalia. I am not sure if this is reserved for MOB only in Meridies, simply that I have seen MOB members wearing them.

[Josh W]

I'm confused now.

So at least some of this fight is over Godwine being grumpy about the rapier folks handing out red sashes in imitation of squires' belts? Red belts aren't specifically reserved for anyone in the SCA, right? What's he griping about?

[St. George]

I think we have only hit the tip of the iceberg on this one. A lot more is going to shake out when we start rattling the tree.

Alaric

[Guy Dawkins]

When this first hit the various rapier list back in May, my reaction was "ain't here (Midrealm) Nothing I can do about it." If it ever happened here I guess my thoughts would be : I'll go where you ain't and you go where I ain't. That's what I thought the Meridian fencers should have done.

As rapier fighting spreads this kind of thinking is popping up less and less in fewer and fewer places.


Maybe I'm just too old to get worked up over this stuff.

[Uadahlrich]

I accept that HRM is within his rights to dismiss anyone he wants to.

I must also observe that the acorn didn't fall far from the tree.

[co10Broek]

Duke Alaric,

Check your PMs.

Jean-Michel

[DukeGareth]

Hello Everyone,

To my knowledge Their Majesties have not requested or even implied that fencing should not take place at an event they attend. Saying they do not care for it and they do not enjoy watching it does not mean it is forbidden to take place at events where they are present.

His Majesty Godwine did take exception to a member of the Meridian Order of the Blade giving red scarves to his students and calling them cadets. He asked that the Meridian Order of the Blade come up with some form of symbol for their students (not red scarves). When I spoke with His Majesty at Crown List in May the deadline for having chosen that symbol was quickly approaching, if not past.

I cannot comment on exactly why the Kingdom Rapier Marshall was asked to resign. If what has been written here is true, our Earl Marshal (Sir Shaltar) asked him to remove an authorization card. What happened after that I do not know except that Meridies has a new Kingdom Rapier Marshal. Earl Brian MacBrand, one of the people most responsible for light weapons becoming an official activity in Meridies. Also it should be known that Sir Shaltar and his wife Mistress Clare are very active in the fencing community of Meridies.

Fencing in Meridies has come a long way over the last 12 years or so. The light weapons community has a lot for which to be proud. Certainly there are still pre-conceived notions on both sides of the fencing issue and situations such as this can rapidly get out of hand.

Has there been an injustice, not in my opinion. As I understand it from personal conversations and first hand accounts; The Crown asked a member of its most prestigious light weapons order not to do something. That person refused, the Kingdom Rapier Marshal then refused to censure that person and was asked to resign. Who is being more stubborn? I suppose that depends on which side of the issue you stand.

I have heard that His Majesties reason for asking him not to give a red scarf is that Meridies is not a signatory of the White Scarf Treaty. Others (here and elsewhere) have pointed out that red scarves are not restricted or protected regalia (neither are white scarves for that matter). So what right does the King have to tell anyone what color symbol to give to their student, the same authority that allows the Crown to give awards and pronounce banishments. Someone said it earlier in this thread, it's the game we play, and we all know the structure.

There are many who criticize the way Their Majesties have handled this situation but for just a moment let me propose other ways it might have been handled.

1.) Their Majesties could elevate every light weapons fighter into the Meridian Order of the Blade. They in turn could give out red scarves to fighters who could then be elevated to the Meridian Order of the Blade.

2.) Since Their Majesties have been corrected and told that red (and white) scarves are not restricted, they could start giving them out as gifts or as an accessory to every award. Lord John gets a red scarf tied around his arm to go with his AOA and Her Ladyship Jane gets a white scarf to go with her GOA.

Either of the two proposed scenarios above would, in my opinion, have been much more hurtful and/or disrespectful to the fencing community of not only Meridies but the Knowne Worlde. Their Majesties chose to communicate their wishes directly to one of Their subjects and thus it began.

This is a synopsis of this issue as I understand it, if anyone has first hand knowledge that anything I have said here is not true please let me know and I will make a correction or delete the entire post as necessary.

Regards,
Duke Gareth le Bruin
Meridies
(Currently in San Diego on business for the next month or so)

[Josh W]

Why does light weapons combat in the SCA stick in the craws of certain influential people? This Godwine fellow, Pavel of Calontir (among others here), and, so I've heard, not a few folks in the West Kingdom...

I am not interested in rapier fighting myself (but the sidesword stuff looks fun, if only 'cause they use armour), but I've always been perplexed as to why we (Calontir) don't do it, and it's interesting to me that other kingdoms seem to have elements that hold it in as much contempt as do our stuffy folks here.

For that matter, it's never been explained to my satisfaction why Calontir doesn't have any light combat. I've heard a couple of theories--e.g. some people believe it would suck manpower away from the army, or some fencer sliced Pavel's tent at Pennsic one year (though how he could tell that the slicing instrument was a rapier is beyond me), among others. Why do some people in this organization hate fencing?

[Richard Blackmoore]

The king could also have

a) Implemented rules for fencing in his home kingdom via kingdom law, to eliminate the portions of SCA fencing that he considers unsafe. Much as kingdoms often augment SCA rules and equipment minimums.

b) Implemented rules and guidelines via kingdom law to eliminate any facets of fencing he finds innappropriate if any. For example post SCA period clothing or fantasy outfits; I'm not saying that is a problem in his kingdom, but that is they type of thing that some of us find offensive about some fencers. Especially 18th century pirates with fake parrots.

c) Implemented his own signs/badges/etc. for fencing to eliminate the need to argue with someone about the use of the term cadet or red sashes, white scarves or whatever.

d) Banned fencing altogether or at least from his presence. The fact that he did not do this given that the officer in charge of fencing is alledged to have failed to enforce the king's will, shows restraint and responsibility in my opinion. Sacking the officer who fails to do his job is quite appropriate, assuming that individual really did fail to to his job. I wasn't there so I have no idea.

[Malachiuri]

Josh... yer killin me.

Do you seriously think Pavel has ANYTHING to do with Calontir not having light weapons at this moment? Seriously man, Pavel has as much influence in Calontir as my dog. Dont get me wrong here. Pav is, and always been a close bud of mine, but he wields NO power in the kingdom at this time. Hell his "cronies" havent even been in true power lately.

Why dont we have it? Because we are stubborn as mules and hate to be told "You Must Do This". Remember, we are the group that burned Tony Provine in effigy at Lilies during that whole mess. Some have issues with culture and its impact on Calontir socially but I view that as a straw dog at best.

Currently we are developing light weapons rules that will work well with the surrounding Kingdoms. Sir William(KEM), myself and a few others have been looking into this for over a year with great input from the underground fencing community in Calontir. One of our primary issues was getting them to give us a first draft of their proposed rules. Once they did, off we went. This is a serious issue to many of us in Calontir. Its become an argument for arguments sake, nothing more and its pissing a lot of us off.

We will have fencing one day. On our terms, in our own special Calontir way.

But... this thread is about Meridies and their issues not Calontir. Any who give a rats ass about this issue and Calontir, drop me an email at Malachiuri@gmail.com and we can agrue and toss is around all you like in private.!

Now, back to the show.

[Baron Alejandro]

Currently we are developing light weapons rules that will work well with the surrounding Kingdoms. Sir William(KEM), myself and a few others have been looking into this for over a year with great input from the underground fencing community in Calontir. One of our primary issues was getting them to give us a first draft of their proposed rules. Once they did, off we went. This is a serious issue to many of us in Calontir. Its become an argument for arguments sake, nothing more and its pissing a lot of us off.

We will have fencing one day. On our terms, in our own special Calontir way.

If Calontir gets rapier, I pledge a bottle of choice scotch to the Crown who approves it, the Kingdom Earl Marshal who implements it, and the Kingdom Rapier Marshal who ushers it in.

Your Excellency, please look for an email from baronalejandro-at-yahoo-dot-com. Don't worry, it'll be a good one.

[Mateo]

The king could have done a lot of things, being king. He could have chose to support his rapier community and help them feel like valued, important individuals in the kingdom. Instead, he chose to snub them, and use his royal whim to involve himself in a situation that was frankly none of his business - the taking of a student.

I find it kind of sad, no, not sad. I find it kind of aweful that he would ask his KRM to pull someone's *fighter card* because of how they chose their student, and then *can* the KRM for his refusal to do so. What kind of an abuse of his royal might is that? Were I that KRM, I would immediately step down from my position, and then try to see if I could appeal to the BOD about such a removal.

Again, I have to ask - does one fight in crown to serve their kingdom as a Royal, or does one fight in crown to use the power it brings with it? With great power comes great responsibility - so sayeth Spider Man.

I remember an oath that moved me so much at my second event in the SCA, that it locked me into being in this game for life. I remember watching Duke Finn mouth it as someone was knighted. Phrases like "Shield of the Weak" "Foremost in Battle" "Courteous at all Times".

I don't remember hearing "unless they're fencers" as a clause to that oath.

Someone asked me if such complaints were legitimate - to them I say "absolutely". Being king brings with it many rights, but also many responsibilities. You can, with your power, bring your kingdom together in the magic of this game we play. Or you can break it for many. Just because you are king does not mean you get to be immune from criticism for your choices on the throne.

So if you become Royalty, for god's sake, be good royalty. Or you may well damage someone's enjoyment of this game because of your own narrow vision of what it ought to be.

Baron Alejandro - Check your PM's

[Leo Medii]

Fighting is fighting.

[Richard Blackmoore]

Fighting is fighting.

Nope fighting is fighting.

Fencing is an interesting thing to do that sort of resembles non-contact fighting at times, when they are not busy pressing their 18th century lace or auditioning for the death scene from Macbeth.

Combat archery is definitely not fighting, though it is a kind of marksmanship practice that is good for sport, hunting and for those who can't fight or fence due to physical limitations.

And don't even get me started on siege weapons engineers. When we start knighting them, we know we are not in Kansas anymore.

[DukeGareth]

Hello again everyone,

I think this first paragraph explains why the issue of light weapons remains so heated. No other group within the Society is so vocal about not being made to "... feel like valued, important individuals in the kingdom." When was the last time the scribes (or any other group for that matter) were so vocal about not being singled out and praised as a group? His Majesty first wrote the letter because there were many rumors flying around about what he was supposedly going to do to fencing. In his letter he tried to explain his feelings about this activity but he also said he would not interfere with it. When he wrote those words he had no idea that this situation would arise.

I find it interesting that you think the light weapons community of Meridies has been snubbed, that was not the impression I got from the majority of those who chose to speak on this subject on the Kingdom list serve.

His majesty could care less who anyone takes as a student or how. What he took exception to was Ursus tying a red scarf around his arm and calling him a cadet. I can see where His Majesty would be offended that Ursus was somehow trying to bring Meridies into the White Scarf treaty all by himself. Ursus has been in Meridies for a long time, he knew there would be consequences to his actions and he did it anyway.

Posting to this thread calling the King names will not help this situation. Meridies, much like Calontir, does not really care what anyone else thinks. Even those who have left us like Blackoak, Marvin and Murdoch. We will deal with our issues and resolve our own internal conflicts.

Gareth
Meridies

The king could have done a lot of things, being king. He could have chose to support his rapier community and help them feel like valued, important individuals in the kingdom. Instead, he chose to snub them, and use his royal whim to involve himself in a situation that was frankly none of his business - the taking of a student.

I find it kind of sad, no, not sad. I find it kind of aweful that he would ask his KRM to pull someone's *fighter card* because of how they chose their student, and then *can* the KRM for his refusal to do so. What kind of an abuse of his royal might is that? Were I that KRM, I would immediately step down from my position, and then try to see if I could appeal to the BOD about such a removal.

Again, I have to ask - does one fight in crown to serve their kingdom as a Royal, or does one fight in crown to use the power it brings with it? With great power comes great responsibility - so sayeth Spider Man.

I remember an oath that moved me so much at my second event in the SCA, that it locked me into being in this game for life. I remember watching Duke Finn mouth it as someone was knighted. Phrases like "Shield of the Weak" "Foremost in Battle" "Courteous at all Times".

I don't remember hearing "unless they're fencers" as a clause to that oath.

Someone asked me if such complaints were legitimate - to them I say "absolutely". Being king brings with it many rights, but also many responsibilities. You can, with your power, bring your kingdom together in the magic of this game we play. Or you can break it for many. Just because you are king does not mean you get to be immune from criticism for your choices on the throne.

So if you become Royalty, for god's sake, be good royalty. Or you may well damage someone's enjoyment of this game because of your own narrow vision of what it ought to be.

Baron Alejandro - Check your PM's

[syveken]

Fencing is an interesting thing to do that sort of resembles non-contact fighting at times (...)
Combat archery is definitely not fighting(...)
And don't even get me started on siege weapons engineers. (...)

speechless.

[Agilmar]

...
Nope fighting is fighting.

Fencing is an interesting thing to do that sort of resembles non-contact fighting at times, when they are not busy pressing their 18th century lace or auditioning for the death scene from Macbeth.
....

Either your or my edition of Merriam-Websters is severely out of date.

I guess it's not fighting unless you're shielded, padded and cushioned up to the nines?

Agilmar

[Agilmar]

...

Do you have a legitimate criticism? If it is up to the King to decide what he does or does not want to do, regardless of your opinion of what is right, then how is your criticism legitimate?
...

I think it's reasonable to criticize Crown not only if they're breaking the law, but also when they rule poorly in your eyes.

Somebody once said, "Loyalty is not following your King when he jumps off the cliff, but keeping him from jumping in the first place."

Cheers,

Agilmar

[Agilmar]

Why do fencers gripe and whine?

Because they're powerless, and have little other options.

Scribes have the Laurels to represent them, like every other art form; Pelicans represent the officers, Chivalry the heavies. Who represents fencing?

Fencers have no lobby. Fencing decisions are made by the Crown and -- ultimately -- the Earl marshal, *none* of whom need to be authorized rapier fighters.

Could you imagine the final say about Heavy rules being in the hands of somebody who *never* held a rattan stick? This is exactly the situation for the fencers.

This is exacerbated by a certain rivalry between fighting camps. I've been given the usual good-humoured swishy-versus-real-fighting banter so many times, I'd like to puke. Which is why I am sore, why I was miffed by one message and seem to have helped creating this discussion in the first place. (And am not sure if this is a good or a bad thing.)

You know, being told "You're a fencer, not a fighter" sounds to me like somebody telling you, "Baseball is not a sport, because they don't carry one off on a stretcher every five minutes."

Cheers,

Agilmar

P.S.: I'm heavy authorized as well. It just isn't my cup of meat.

[Agilmar]

Fencing is an interesting thing to do that sort of resembles non-contact fighting at times (...)
Combat archery is definitely not fighting(...)
And don't even get me started on siege weapons engineers. (...)

speechless.

No, he's right.

Real fighting requires the use of duct tape, sneakers, plastic, aluminium and bicycle tyres.

Agilmar

[freiman the minstrel]

Fencing is an interesting thing to do that sort of resembles non-contact fighting at times (...)
Combat archery is definitely not fighting(...)
And don't even get me started on siege weapons engineers. (...)

speechless.

No, he's right.

Real fighting requires the use of duct tape, sneakers, plastic, aluminium and bicycle tyres.

Agilmar

Please be careful who you hit with that broad brush, your excellency.

f

[Mateo]

Fighting is fighting.

Nope fighting is fighting.

Combat is combat. Be it with a rapier or a stave of rattan. Don't believe me? Please feel free to seek me out on the rapier field at gulf wars. No, that's not a challenge. However, until you have crossed blades on the rapier field with someone who understands that it's a fight, I believe you cannot truly make the judgement you have levied here.

Fencing is an interesting thing to do that sort of resembles non-contact fighting at times, when they are not busy pressing their 18th century lace or auditioning for the death scene from Macbeth.

Ignorance is a flaw all too many of us allow ourselves to endure. For many years, I allowed myself to endure such ignorance regarding armored fighting. I assure you, both are equally as valid forms of combat. Until you have truly experienced both, you cannot know.

By the by, lace is more than period. In fact, I probably wear less than I ought.

[Agilmar]

...
Please be careful who you hit with that broad brush, your excellency.

f

What, not in the mood for a bit of good-humoured bantering today?

But perhaps I was stepping over my bounds, responding to a very broad condescending statement with some irony...

Agilmar

[Mateo]

Hello again everyone,

I think this first paragraph explains why the issue of light weapons remains so heated. No other group within the Society is so vocal about not being made to "... feel like valued, important individuals in the kingdom." When was the last time the scribes (or any other group for that matter) were so vocal about not being singled out and praised as a group? His Majesty first wrote the letter because there were many rumors flying around about what he was supposedly going to do to fencing. In his letter he tried to explain his feelings about this activity but he also said he would not interfere with it. When he wrote those words he had no idea that this situation would arise.

I have to disagree, with all due respect, Sir Gareth. How could his majesty live within his borders and not know th effect he would have on his rapier fighters when he told them their activity would hold no value to him for his reign?

I find it interesting that you think the light weapons community of Meridies has been snubbed, that was not the impression I got from the majority of those who chose to speak on this subject on the Kingdom list serve.

I have a hard time believeing you can't see how they have been snubbed. I mean, seriously, if the king said "I have no interest in heavy combat now that I have won crown, and will not be supporting you during my reign" do you think the heavy community would just say "Oh, well, that's cool"?

Of course not. Fencing is not the same thing as scribal arts. Fencers fight, against others, at war, in the name of their kingdom. In that, they are different (not better, just different) than a&s ventures, etc.

+
His majesty could care less who anyone takes as a student or how.

Clearly, your Grace, that is not the case. how it was done was very much a problem for his majest, else, why try to pull the fighter's card?

What he took exception to was Ursus tying a red scarf around his arm and calling him a cadet. I can see where His Majesty would be offended that Ursus was somehow trying to bring Meridies into the White Scarf treaty all by himself.

Which, with all due respect, is ridiculous. The tradition of tieing a red scarf on a student is not exclusive to kingdoms under the White Scarf treaty. It is an interkingdom tradition borne of that order, but not exclusive to it.

Ursus has been in Meridies for a long time, he knew there would be consequences to his actions and he did it anyway.

Good for him. Bravery in the face of unreasonable oppression is to be admired, in my opinion. What Ursus did was chivalricly and morally correct. He gave unto another that which in the past had inspired him.

Meridies, much like Calontir, does not really care what anyone else thinks. Even those who have left us like Blackoak, Marvin and Murdoch. We will deal with our issues and resolve our own internal conflicts.

It's not about what others think. That's a deflection. It's about the damage done to *his own people* that's at issue here. The king weilded his power in a way that was harmful.

[william]

Hi!

quick question from the guy from that li'll remote shire beyond the big forrest:

If I understand the story right, one version is that the KRM was removed from office because he refused to waive an authorization card. The waiving was requested because that individual had given out symbols of allegiance not in accordance with the crown's will.

Leaving asside the whole red scarf and legitimacy issue - why was this justification for pulling an auth card?

My understanding was that cards can and should be pulled for dangerous conduct on the field and violations of the rules for the respective martial activity. But from my understanding this was not the case here - and neither implies the giving out and wearing of certain symbols a significant danger on the list field nor is it regulated in the rules for the various martial activities.

Am I completely wrong in thinking that in this case the crown should have rather used the sanction tools directed against an individual in general (i.e. ban of presence etc.)?

To me it sounds like mixing up two different things - and I'm looking forward to your views on this.


William

[sarnac]

a Crown can pull anyones card for any reason