What's up with the King of Meridies?

Adrielle Kerrec · Post by **Adrielle Kerrec** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:52 pm

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:Didn't Max actually ban fencing from his sight or something? From what I understand he did something pretty radical.

Alaric

Max banned dueling in his sight. Anyone caught dueling was executed

cheers

justus · Post by **justus** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:23 pm

Where I disagree with Justus, is that I believe that even though His Majesty Meridies might dislike or disapprove of rapier, I do not feel it was necessary to say some of those things. He could have simply coolly ignored the issue and left it at that. Instead, he chose to say some things that I feel may cost him in his legacy and reign. I do not feel His Majesty spoke the truth. I believe he spoke from his spleen.

And this is where possibly his current actions may be sending a different message than his letter did.

As you are more attuned to the rapier community you have probably heard more about what is going on in the kingdom, and you bring that knowledge with you when you read his letter. So where I see a cordial explanation to the populace as to why the Crown is not supporting the rapier arts, you see a thin faÃƒÂ§ade on what you see as a general attack on the rapier community.

I honestly donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t know if that view is correct or not, as my only experience with the issue is what I have read here. Your view may very well be the truth, that this letter is disingenuous at best. My point is that the letter itself, and the idea of a frank explanation to the populace is a good thing.

Simply ignoring a group or an activity with no explanation is not a Kingly way of behavior. Only things or people of exceptionally base nature are worthy of unexplained contempt.

So while this letter may be contemptible if the King has gone beyond the actions expressed and has actively tried to discourage rapier or treat the community poorly, the idea of the letter and the way it was written are correct.

-Justus

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:58 pm

Hey look Kids! A humourous song!!!!

Ban the Fencers
Here in the Western kingdom
We're inclusive as can be
We'd never rain on your parade
Just 'cause we don't agree
There's lots of ways to play this game
We want you to have fun
We'd never tell you what to do
Or what should not be done.

If you are of the Nipponese
Well, that's all right with us
We'll let you be a Samurai
And we'll not make a fuss
Sure, Western Europe's more our style
But you're free to play your game
We'd never want to hem you in
'Cause it's really all the same.

chorus:
But ban the fencers
They're all hopeless thugs and thieves
They're dangerous, too brightly dressed
And recreating sleaze
Let's ban the fencers
'Cause with us they don't belong
And if you should see to disagree
Then you'd best move along.

And if you don't like costumes
And sewing is a bore
Just come to court in worn-out jeans
We'd never ask for more
It's more important what's inside
Than what you won't put on
We'd never tell you differently
For that would just be wrong.

And if you are of the Mongol Horde
Well, you need not come to court
What does that matter, anyhow?
With you we'll still consort
And you can call us "chugwa"
Well, that just means "not tribe"
We're mindful of your hopes and dreams
Which we would not deride.

chorus

And when it comes to music
Just play what e'er you will
Beatles filks are quite alright
We never get our fill
Don't worry 'bout those "period" songs
Or about the way they're made
We'd rather hear the raunchy ones
About the girls you've laid.

So if you ever come up to the West
You know we'll treat you right
We'll party 'til the cows come home and
Howl at the moon all night
We'll tell you, "Welcome to the West
Now please take off your clothes!"
But leave your rapiers behind
We won't put up with those!

chorus
Yeah, ban the fencers
Who are they to act like knights?
And that white scarf just makes me barf
We'll soon set things to right
We're gonna ban the fencers
'Cause they don't know right from wrong
And if you should see to disagree
Then you'd best move along!
(words and music by JP Andrews)

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:21 pm

Hmmmm....I wonder what he thinks of combat archery....

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:34 pm

Bryce, that song is uproarious. To what tune is it sung?

Samuel · Post by **Samuel** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:34 pm

this stuff always cracks me up...

really is ANYONE not going to continue fencing?

what does it matter the Crown doesnt support your activity it doesnt mean your not going to do it anyhow..

the guy won crown.. If he wants everyone in fealty to wear pink tutus to court thats his right to ask it..

like anything else you can either put on the tutu or not goto court... simple really..

gettin all broke up and pissy about it cause your tutu is purple is a total waste of time..

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:01 pm

Sam is right.

Ratslayer · Post by **Ratslayer** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:20 pm

Damn, my tutu is orange....now what do I do?

Kelwin

Odo · Post by **Odo** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:17 pm

removed post to keep from adding to the flames

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:19 pm

Ratslayer wrote:Damn, my tutu is orange....now what do I do?

Kelwin

[img]http://www.glitzonline.com/Merchant2/gr ... 01/Rit.gif[/img]

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:52 pm

I have an MP3 of the song. It is done by a fellow named Joe Bethancourt, off of his CD "Prodigal bard". It used to be availible for download on mp3.com, but i dont know if it still is.

-+G

Riejckaert · Post by **Riejckaert** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:22 pm

I wont pretend to know the whole story of this, but a few of us had this exact conversation over the weekend while working on armor. Anyone present then feel free to say something. I know some of the so-called "hate" from the King towards fencing stems from imposter(as in they promoted themselves) knights with white sashes handing out red sashes to their students, and then not listening to the King when he asked this practice to end. The official Kingdom Fencing marshal resigned/quit/was fired(dont know which) over this as well.

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:25 pm

Hey, folks.

After some time to rethink, I'm going to step back and issue an apology.

I called the king of Meridies a tool.

I should not have done that.

I shouldn't let my disagreement over his *reported* actions allow me to disparage a man I don't even know.

After some consideration, I realize I've been letting my own down-mood of the past day or so infect my posting here.

To the king, and the populace of Meridies, I issue an abject apology. I myself am originally a Meridian, and still have many friends in that fine, sunny kingdom, and I'd hate to think that my own foul mood allowed them to think less of me.

I will not be removing my original post, though, as I believe a man's words -- even when stupid -- should stand on their own merits (or, in this case, demerits). I said something stupid that I can't take back, and it serves no one to attempt to pretend I didn't say it.

My apologies for the offense -- and to my friends, my apologies for acting like an ass.

Effingham

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:19 pm

As I believe I may have been at that Armoring session... I think may clear some things up. I dont wish to get involved but I feel I need to present both sides because the King's side is lacking in most of this debate. here is the story as verified by one of the primaries on the rapier side....

Subject: RE: [SCA-Rapier]

Fencer M <Ursus> is a member of the order of high merit for rapier here (Meridien Order of the Blade). M took a student in his camp at a large event in front of some 10-20 witnesses (though I wasn't there). M gave his new student a red scarf and called him a cadet. Notably, M was one of a small number of fencers in Meridies who was a cadet to a DWS <Randolfe from Trimaris> from another kingdom and wore a red scarf.

Time passes. Sometime after our Coronation (early April), after word of this had gotten to the King <Godwine>, the King requested from M that he not give his students red scarves and not call them cadets. M has chosen not to fulfill this request and has stopped playing. I think it's fair to say that many of us here hope M is taking a welcome break and will come back when he's ready.

I think it's fair to say that the current King dislikes the usage of red
scarves and the term "cadets" - but *could* have a more favorable view of something we in Meridies come up with on our own rather than simply copying what other kingdoms have done. Such has been suggested on the SERAPIER list by elder advisors from other kingdoms <Radu and Bri>.
**************************

OK - from what I know, Ursus was asked by Godwine to take the red scarf off his student and not call him a cadet. Ursus did not do so and Godwine asked the kingdom rapier marshal to remove Ursus' authorization card (within his rights since everyone fight's at the Crown's discretion IMO). Jean-Michel was unwilling to do this and so Godwine asked him to resign and appointed Earl Sir Brian as KRM.

(the comments in the quote are not mine)

I don't believe that the rapier fighters were pretending to be Knights but I was told by a member of the rapier community that they wanted to imitate what knights do (giving red scarfs and having students sorta like squires) and that it was a sincere form of flattery.

I believe that both sides were wrong. I believe the King probably lost his temper when dealing with a Rapier community that refused his requests one after another and I believe that the rapier community is at fault for not trying to compromise with the King when he asked that these student not use the red scarf in his Kingdom during his reign. (a whim of the King)

I believe this could have been resolved if both sides did not have preconceived notions about each other.

Of course again I am not going to make friends on either side but I do want to create a balance on this thread as I think the King is being unfairly judged and that not enough information is present to make that judgment.

I hope I am not spreading gossip but this was posted on a public list so its not a secret and I am tired of the one sidedness of this topic and if it is going to continue it might as well continue with as much of the facts as I can provide.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:26 pm

I don't believe that the rapier fighters were pretending to be Knights but I was told by a member of the rapier community that they wanted to imitate what knights do (giving red scarfs and having students sorta like squires) and that it was a sincere form of flattery.

ARe rainbow skittle.. erm.. belts protected regalia in Meridies, I mean. other than WHite, of course?

Here, it's "courtesy".. but the only things you really cant wear are the crown, a white belt, unadorned chain, and spurs.

Beyond that.. you can do it.. might get some flack.. but its not verboten.

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:46 pm

I don't believe they are (other than as custom) but as has been discussed to death the King can have his royal whim.

Mateo · Post by **Mateo** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:53 pm

The red scarf is indeed a homage to the knighthood, and the tradition of dependency within a martial community. And frankly, shouldn't we all strive to be more knightly? Isn't that the idea?

I was once a cadet to then Warder Jock McKee, who is also now a member of Northshield's Order of the White Scarf. You may have seen him at gulf wars - he's the tall guy with the grinch mask. Has a habit of sneaking behind Ansteora's line and calling commands for them

I have two Cadets of my own, both of them wear red scarves.

I think I would have been upset had the crown chosen to try and stop me from taking a cadet. These students will be with me for their careers, in some form or another. I'd hate to have them bear the burden of a choice between my temporary king, and a moment that might help to define them for the rest of their fighting career.

I remember when I got my red scarf like it was yesterday. Imagine what that cadet must remember about their day...

Agilmar · Post by **Agilmar** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:08 am

Hm. White and red scarves are usually associated with members of the White Scarf treaty, which Meridies has not signed. So, technically nobody should be forbidden to wear them, although of course using them is a bit on the rude side.

Still, while it may have been within the legal bounds of the king to revoke the authorization, it's certainly not a sign of grandeur or reason in his dealing with his subjects. The punishment (removal of the card) had no relation to the misdemeanour.

Cheers,

Agilmar

co10Broek · Post by **co10Broek** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:03 am

Hi Everyone,
For the record:
"I WAS THE KRM IN THIS SITUATION".
The king never asked me to pull an authorization.
The Earl Marshal suggested that I pull an authorization on the grounds that a fencer was bad for the community. The fencer was bad for the community because he gave his students red scarves and called them cadets.
The reason I was given for my removal from office, "His Majesty wished it."
Meridies is not a signatory to the White Scarf Treaty (and I don't care if Meridies ever does sign it.)
Red Scarves and the term "Cadet" are not protected by the White Scarf Treaty.

Jean-Michel
the Former KRM of Meridies

Hrolfr · Post by **Hrolfr** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:27 am

Maeryk wrote:Here, it's "courtesy".. but the only things you really cant wear are the crown, a white belt, unadorned chain, and spurs.

Perhaps the word "gold" should be put in front of the "unadorned chain" and "spurs".

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:40 am

I am not a fencer.... I guess its ok....but I have no interest in pursuing fencing at all.... however... when I sat the Throne of Ealdormere, one of the first things I did after stepping up was get gear and go out and authorize in Rapier, Rapier and dagger, and Rapier and rigid parry.

It was important to me to support ALL of the martial arts of my Kingdom, as well as archery, and the gentler arts as well.

Just my humble opinion, your mileage may vary.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:46 am

Perhaps the word "gold" should be put in front of the "unadorned chain" and "spurs".

Perhaps.. but in a quick search under SCA sumptuary laws regalia I found "unadorned chain (Especially gold)"

which seems to say that ANY unadorned chain is a no-no in the SCA.

(Which annoys me.. because there is plenty of pictorial evidence of unadorned chains being worn by people in my period. GRRRR)

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:53 am

just an aside, a plain white belt and an unadorned chain of any tincture are reserved regalia for members of the order of the chivalry. spurs, however, are not protected regalia. are there any kingdoms that have kingdom laws reserving spurs? i dont see how they can since the order of the chivalry is not a kingdom order and, therefore, kingdoms can not make any supportable laws or customs that effect us (also goes for laurels and pelicans of course).

back on topic, samuel stated it right. if the king doesnt want you to fence around him you wont. period. i would suggest the whining stop and understand that the man might not like the sport so stop taking it personally. i happen to disagree with him and his choice but its his and i support that.

regards
logan

Maeryk wrote:
I don't believe that the rapier fighters were pretending to be Knights but I was told by a member of the rapier community that they wanted to imitate what knights do (giving red scarfs and having students sorta like squires) and that it was a sincere form of flattery.
ARe rainbow skittle.. erm.. belts protected regalia in Meridies, I mean. other than WHite, of course?

Here, it's "courtesy".. but the only things you really cant wear are the crown, a white belt, unadorned chain, and spurs.

Beyond that.. you can do it.. might get some flack.. but its not verboten.

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:54 am

Hrolfr wrote:
Maeryk wrote:Here, it's "courtesy".. but the only things you really cant wear are the crown, a white belt, unadorned chain, and spurs.
Perhaps the word "gold" should be put in front of the "unadorned chain" and "spurs".

Hrolfr,

PLEASE don't bring that into this arguement. That is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

For those that ask, "Ban the Fencers" is the work of Lord Thomas of Bordeux, who can be found at:
http://www.ravenboymusic.com/thomas_bordeaux.htm

And a clip of the song can be heard at: http://www.ravenboymusic.com/Ban%20clip.mp3

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:57 am

just an aside, a plain white belt and an unadorned chain of any tincture are reserved regalia for members of the order of the chivalry.

Is that operand an "And" or an "and/or"???

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:40 am

Meridies reserves gold spurs to the Chivalry as per kingdom law..

Chains and Spurs

Unadorned chains of gold will be reserved for use by members of the Chivalry, only if they have sworn their fealty and done homage unto the Crown. Spurs of gold will be reserved for use by members of the Chivalry.

Broadway · Post by **Broadway** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:05 am

--I forgot that I said that if this conversation was moved here, away from the world cup thread I'd respond to it--

With all due respect to the rapier community, of which, I'm a member (I love rapier fighting... tons of fun).

The ability to whine and complain that lies within a few fencers never ceases to amaze me.

I would like to know who the guy is that is going around hiding the way the SCA is structured from these guys...

These folks know how all this organization is structured. They know the kind of things a King can do. They know that stuff like this can happen.

So why do some folks act all confused and embittered when something like this happens???

It astounds me.

syveken · Post by **syveken** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:12 am

Maeryk wrote:which seems to say that ANY unadorned chain is a no-no in the SCA. (Which annoys me.. because there is plenty of pictorial evidence of unadorned chains being worn by people in my period. GRRRR)

Well, I wear a more or less simple golden chain, which I got from a good friend, nethertheless. I guess noone (even the ones, who don't know, that I'm no heavy fighter) would think me being a Knight, if I appear in a german renaissance dress without spurs or white belt.
We had an interesting discussion about this on the german ren list.

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:15 am

We have Cadets here btw, seems to work fine. But then again we signed the White Scarf Treaty and we already have blue, yellow and white (with spike and blue strips) scarves so there is no need for a red sash or whatever.

Custom and culture. Changing those will always piss folks off.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:30 am

Anna von Silvenhain wrote: Well, I wear a more or less simple golden chain, which I got from a good friend, nethertheless. I guess noone (even the ones, who don't know, that I'm no heavy fighter) would think me being a Knight, if I appear in a german renaissance dress without spurs or white belt.
We had an interesting discussion about this on the german ren list.

I guess the question would be do you wear it outside your cloths as part of your garb or under your garb?

I wear a gold chain as well, it was my fathers, I put it on after he died and have not taken it off since. HOWEVER, it is a close fitting modern looking real gold chain and I try to keep it hidden under my garb so as to not have it or me miss represented.

IF, you chain looks something like a knights chain (long with large links etc.) and you display it outside your clothing then in essence you are breaking the rules. Even though you are not a fighter, but rules still apply.

syveken · Post by **syveken** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:05 am

InsaneIrish wrote:I guess the question would be do you wear it outside your cloths as part of your garb or under your garb?
IF, you chain looks something like a knights chain (long with large links etc.) and you display it outside your clothing then in essence you are breaking the rules. Even though you are not a fighter, but rules still apply.

It's part of my garb and it's more a necklace then a long chain.
What would you suggest for women playing german renaissance to wear?

and ... ahem ... I do see myself as a fighter. A light one, who can't be a knight, but a fighter nethertheless.

Odo · Post by **Odo** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:45 am

But that is you and that is me but that is definitely not Godwin. As King, he may do as he wishes. AND even in disagreement with his actions, I can see you supporting the will of the Crown.

Odo

sarnac wrote:I am not a fencer.... I guess its ok....but I have no interest in pursuing fencing at all.... however... when I sat the Throne of Ealdormere, one of the first things I did after stepping up was get gear and go out and authorize in Rapier, Rapier and dagger, and Rapier and rigid parry.

It was important to me to support ALL of the martial arts of my Kingdom, as well as archery, and the gentler arts as well.

Just my humble opinion, your mileage may vary.

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:49 am

Absolutely, unless said King broke his side of the vows of fealty, which is not this case.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:05 am

Anna von Silvenhain wrote: It's part of my garb and it's more a necklace then a long chain.
What would you suggest for women playing german renaissance to wear?

and ... ahem ... I do see myself as a fighter. A light one, who can't be a knight, but a fighter nethertheless.

I am beginning to play 16th Century German Landsknect, so I understand your plight. What I have decided to do is A. not wear much gold B. Ad a medalion to any gold chain that I DO wear. There are many examples of Pendants and Medalions on Chains as well.

Look at it this way. Say you have a roman Persona and are a Fencer. Your persona would have worn a white scarf (Roman Legionaries wore white scarfs to stop the chaffing of their armour) Should you wear the scarf anyway because it is appropiate to your persona even though you have not earned the accolade?

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:09 am

I am beginning to play 16th Century German Landsknect, so I understand your plight. What I have decided to do is A. not wear much gold B. Ad a medalion to any gold chain that I DO wear. There are many examples of Pendants and Medalions on Chains as well.

Hell.. throw a 1/16th inch jumpring around one link of the chain, and it's "adorned".

Don't wear it across yoru chest and under one arm though, unless you have been awarded rank of Provost or Hauptmann in your Fahnlein!