Combat of the Thirty Report

[Murdock]

The Cal's pretty high compared to SCA average IMO. You could go up a bit.

But most folks seem to be following Rhy's recomendation for the head shots as "must actually kinda stun ya" I had several people ask me why we were hitting so hard? I don't think it's all that hard considering how well most of us are armouerd. YMMV

Actually any higher might fatigue people faster and make engaement faster.

[Sixtus_Goetz]

All I know is I got Gorilla F**ked. I took my chances with my single sword < walk on fighter who shoulda been more prepared as was totally expected to be turned away >. Sir Johanna's of Windrose can attest to my mugging. I can attest that not one of the 12 blows I recieved to my head and shoulders would have been called light in any streach of any tourney in any kingdom that I have fought in. Calibration was pretty damn high BUT I knew it was going to be when I jumped in.

It was awsome!!! I only wish I had remembered my ransom and didn't have to run back to camp to get said items after the Gorilla F#*king. I indeed felt like the low bar in that tourney, and I do appoligize to all who entered as it was a dis-service to the mood and setting. It was one , in retro-spect, I should have sat out.

Cheers

Sixtus

[James B.]

A longer 30 would be awesome.

[Murdock]

Svereal peoplel have described some of the fighting as "gorillia f**king"

Why? IMO it's much more difficult than regular melle combat and allows a wider range of attacks, cross checks may bear an oppnen tto the ground, more limited effective targets force greater accuracy, requirement of multiple good blows. Instead of the normal "tap" your dead fighting.

Vigerous? yes
rougher? Yes
more difficult? Absolutely

perhaps less gracefull at times, but in my mind a better approximation of armoured massed combat than is seen almost anywhere else in the SCA.

Often you must beat the opponent down to win, a true and hardy test of prowess.

[Sixtus_Goetz]

Svereal peoplel have described some of the fighting as "gorillia f**king"

Wasn't complaining about getting Gorilla F**ked... Just stating that it happened... Was fun... If I am allowed, I will do it again next year

[Murdock]

So you enjoyed your intimate relations with large mountian dwelling Africian primates???


Ooooooookkkkkkaaayyyyyyy



whatever flots thy boat good sir

[Sixtus_Goetz]

So you enjoyed your intimate relations with large mountian dwelling Africian primates???


Ooooooookkkkkkaaayyyyyyy



whatever flots thy boat good sir

Well, there WERE some quite large and burly folks on the field that day...

[Leo Medii]

I hope that next year they run it "as armored".

[James B.]

I hope that next year they run it "as armored".

If so people better start investing in maille and greaves

[Leo Medii]

Already covered.

Actually, my one request as Captain of the French next year is simple-

Period footwear, or covered.

I'm not a fan of the grille's, but they are a safety consideration. However, in a combat where it is as much a display of kit as of combat, I simply can't see past the combat boots or cleats.

[Jean Paul de Sens]

I hope that next year they run it "as armored".

If so people better start investing in maille and greaves

Legal targeting zone can not be changed. Legal blow calling conventions can, but targeting can not.

JP

[James B.]

Legal targeting zone can not be changed. Legal blow calling conventions can, but targeting can not.

I know, just being funny

OTOH greaves are all about the spirit of the thirty.

[Jean Paul de Sens]

Legal targeting zone can not be changed. Legal blow calling conventions can, but targeting can not.

I know, just being funny

OTOH greaves are all about the spirit of the thirty.

Oops, I missed the smilies.... sorry bout that.

Yah, they would make kits look cooler.

JP

[Murdock]

I'd add a request for no plastic guantlets.

[Leo Medii]

I'd add a request for no plastic guantlets.

I thought that was a given?

[Jehan de Pelham]

Here's a question maybe nobody wants to deal with? Isn't the poll axe a little late for Combat of the Thirty?

I know that the poll axe has become the favorite of the participants, but were poll axes used at the original?

The reason I ask is because I think this combat done with swords of war would add a completely different flavor.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

[James B.]

Jehan

Axe is listed as one of the weapons used, was it a pollaxe or a regulare axe head on a stick, who can be sure?

I do know that pollaxes are seen in iconography from 20 to 30 years before the Combat of the Thrity. Check out this image, there is an axe on a long pole not unlike the shape of a bec de corbin head like I use. It has a back spike and a top spike:

[img]http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishlibrary-store/Components/148/14816_2.jpg[/img]

The Holkham Bible Picture Book England, circa 1320-1330

[SirAngus]

I think the battle will last longer when the mentality of kill them all gets overridden.

I really think that knightly combat was a combat of heros not groups. I want to prove my prowess to my peers and how can I do that when it's me and 3 of my friends beating on a single person?

Why would you want to kill the grill faced opponants? Once you'd start killing instead of trying for ransoms then the chance that the other side would start killing people would go up. Besides, if I kill you, I only get your armour, if I capture you, I would get thousands of coins...

It is because the penalty of death is so low, we have a skewed look on combat. I think if you vowed that if you were killed in the 30 then you would fight no more at that years pennsic, then people would think twice about killing people...

Of course this is coming from a guy who was surrounded by the enemy and instead of a glorious fight, was simply stabbed in the ass from behind by a guy jumping back on the field after collecting a ransom. That was after I tried to save who he was capturing but appologised saying we didnt have proper engagement and allowed them to walk them off the field.... I'm not bitter towards the guy who did it, I'm just dissapointed that it happened.

I also agree that poleaxes seem to be a little late for the period. The ones I have seen are either hand axes or 4 foot long axes used in 2 hands.. not 6' glaives.... And when did the mace become a standard knightly weapon?

[James B.]

Combat of the Thirty according to the Amiens ms. version of Jean Froissart's Chronicles:

(only the portion about the fighting)

When the day had come, the thirty companions of Blandebourch heard Mass and then armed themselves and left for the field where the battle was to take place. And they dismounted and ordered all those who were there that none of them should be so bold as to intervene for any reason whatever. Thus did the thirty companions whom we will call "the English;" and they waited a long time for the other thirty, whom we will call "the French."

When these had come, they dismounted and gave the same command. And when they all had come face to face, they spoke a little, all sixty of them, and then stepped back a pace, each party to its own side. And then they made all their people retreat well back from field. Then one of them gave a signal and immediately they ran over and fought fiercely all in a pile, rescuing one another handsomely when they saw their companions in trouble.

Soon after they had come together, one of the Frenchmen was killed, but the others did not leave off fighting on this account. They held themselves as valiantly on both sides as if they had been all Rolands and Oliviers. In truth, I cannot say "These conducted themselves better than the others;" but they fought so long that they all lost strength and breath and ability to fight.

It seemed a good idea for them to stop and rest, and they rested by mutual agreement. They granted each other a truce until they had recovered and until the first who got up again should call the others back. At this point there were four French dead and two English. They rested a long time, and drank some wine which was brought to them in bottles, and tightened their armor which had broken and cleaned their wounds and bandaged them up.

When they had rested enough, the first who got up made a sign and called the others. The battle recommenced as fiercely as before and it lasted a long time. And they conducted themselves very well in this second round. But finally the English were worsted; for as I heard tell from those who saw it, one of the Frenchmen, who was on horseback split them up and badly trod them underfoot. And so Blandebourch their captain and eight of their companions were killed. Messire Robert de Beaumanoir and his men took the rest as hostages back to his garrison. And that is how the affair went.

[James B.]

Funny thing is I killed a member of the French team in the first minutes of the battle

I was later killed myself.

[Dragan McGroyne]

Darn bargrill, not only presenting poor appearance, but poor "protection". I apologize to all who might have been "jarred" by the grill and vow to rectify the situation if I have oppurtunity to participate in this inspiring event again!

My fine corpse brought to you by the fine poleax work of Sir Garrett Shadwell of Haus von Halstern I believe:
http://www.cottesimple.com/armourarchiv ... CN0089.JPG

Dragan
"Anybody can become angry, that is easy; but to be angry with the right person, and to the right degree, and at the right time, and for the right purpose, and in the right way, that is not within everybody's power, that is not easy."
--Aristotle

[Murdock]

James beat me to it sorta

The real 30 was pretty much a brawl. As for it being fought with swords, there was one big German Squire with a 6 ft Iron bar. Then there is the guy with the giant supposed 20 lb hammer. Many of the combatants were just kinda brutal mercs. The impression i get is a very rough game.

In fact we're in some ways "too nice" in our gear in many respects. Portraying people who were above the social class of many of the actual combatants.

The description gives me more of the impression of a gang fight than a Pas. But this is supposed to be based on the 30 not an exact reenactment.

"Then one of them gave a signal and immediately they ran over and fought fiercely all in a pile, rescuing one another handsomely when they saw their companions in trouble. "

Which is kinda where i got the "rescue team" idea.

Now very few seemed to actually get killed in any of the 30's we've had.

As for the Axe useage, Jean the Good was listed as being captured at Poitiers weilding "a huge axe".

"Why would you want to kill the grill faced opponants?"
Easily gain numerical superiority so that we can more easily get ransoms from the rest.

"Of course this is coming from a guy who was surrounded by the enemy and instead of a glorious fight, was simply stabbed in the ass from behind by a guy jumping back on the field after collecting a ransom. That was after I tried to save who he was capturing but appologised saying we didnt have proper engagement and allowed them to walk them off the field.... I'm not bitter towards the guy who did it, I'm just dissapointed that it happened. "

I think that was me. Sorry to be dissapointing. You'd paid a couple ransoms, and you were doing too well. So the decision was made to kill you, beiing such a dangerous man. I ment no disrespect. I'd been on the field for a while and just walked around ya. BUT i think at least 2 or 3 of us gacked people from behind. So i'm not 100% sure.

To me that should not have counted as a fatal blow, just incapacitataing so you could have been ransomed again. While gettig a single stab wound hurts, it's usually not fatal.

(From a guy who's been stabbed several times.)

Now i thought about taking you as well as Brian when you were down following our initial charge of your position. Didn't wanna be greedy though.


"And when did the mace become a standard knightly weapon?"

The mace is listed by Lull as one of the standard weapons a knight should have...ssooo like at least 12th century? Now i had one but it never came out of the carier. Oh and my Axe is only 5'10 or so. There were several longswords out there, imo it looked like more than in the past.

[Jehan de Pelham]

I have to just come out and say it, even at peril. I've felt that this deed could be better while at the same time knowing that this is bar none the best that it gets.

First, what a buzz kill for the thing to be over in such a short time. A clear opportunity for an entire day of magic presents itself just in terms of the way the account of it reads in Froissart--in essence a day of deadly but polite sport between men at arms. This is the sort of deed that ought to be worth setting aside something traditionally thought important, if need be. Imagine how insanely cool such an event would be if held within the enclosure of the combatants' paviliage, and hospitality and dramatic pauses were introduced when it seemed natural and fitting...

Second, the practice of padding the sides with folks who just don't adhere to the stated kit rules should stop. This deed has, over the years, wrestled with this. I just suggest that the standards should be posted, and if you can't swing the requirements, but want to be involved in what has become a belwether for high fidelity combat replication in the SCA, then arm up for the next year and enjoy the show this year.

Third, you kill someone: no ransom. You can steal from them as they lie on the ground, if being a murderer and a theif is your bag, but no noble ransom between cousins. I will say this, if I participate in the Combat of the Thirty, I will act out the wounds that I bear from it for the entire Pennsic War--as this deed would be almost the sole reason for my attendance it should therefore take such a weight in my experience.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

[Murdock]

"This is the sort of deed that ought to be worth setting aside something traditionally thought important, if need be."


DING DING DING!!!!!!!!

This is different and rare enough that it should not be scheduled against some ordinary list.

Bigger field, longer bouts. Which means i'd better start saving ransoms now.


"Imagine how insanely cool such an event would be if held within the enclosure of the combatants' paviliage, and hospitality and dramatic pauses were introduced when it seemed natural and fitting... "

Thats sort of what i think we're getting at with the 14th Cnetury pass we've been talking about on another thread.


As for bearing the wounds all Pennsic.. you will i got 3 Bruises at Pennsic. 2 from the. One on the back of my Calf from a friendiy fire misswing of a Pollaxe. It was a yellow and green knot for 2 days. Now it's blue. The othe was on the ribs right behind the breast plate , longsword shot. Still blue.

When you fight men in real armour, who you know you have to pretty much beat down to win people try and make every shot count. It's violently beautiful.

[Cet]

Each year the 30 is different as different Captains put their stamp on it.

In general, as post here demonstrate, the context and nature of the original 30 is not very well understood by many, if not most, of the participants. Added to that, as it has been a success many want to co-opt it rather than take it as inspiration to do something on their own. Make it like a friendly deed some say- hand out refreshments; Use visors others insist, because they've been told, an uncritically accepted, open faces are wrong; as long as your shoes are right using a glaive or bill is OK... How much has been heard here about deeds perfomed and how much about modes of dress an game rules? Whatever, it is as it is.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Jehan wrote-
"I will say this, if I participate in the Combat of the Thirty, I will act out the wounds that I bear from it for the entire Pennsic War..."

Objection overruled.

More later.

[Jehan de Pelham]

Intrigued. I await your will on this, my Lord Sir Vitus

Jehan, your squire

[Vitus von Atzinger]

I deny you permission to retain wounds from opening day throughout the entire War.

[Gwydion Caithnes]

Yeah, geez, Jehan...what'ya gonna do...? BLEED on us...?

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Gwydion, are you trying to publicly shame my squire?

I will continue to rail against grilles because the bascinet with the grille is the quickest way of making a person think "SCA Combat."
I don't want to think that, and glaring SCAisms that we are all used to can easily be eliminated by banning grilles from this, the coolest mini-event in the Known World.
I am working on something that has tighter 14th century parameters, and I will do an event at Pennsic if the Thirty doesn't improve. I think I saw a slat-backed Iron Age helmet in one of the Thirty photos this year. Really, I don't care how much you love certain friends that may want to be in the Thirty- if they don't have the proper gear they should not be allowed to participate.
The goal is to have 60 14th century guys who meet the "nothing but the tape" standard. Why does everything get continually watered down?

The goals for all who want to enter the Thirty in 07 should be-

1. Get some 14th century finger gauntlets.
2. Get some GREAVES, even if they are simple studded leather that only cover the front of your shins. Any idiot can make these- there is no excuse for the bottom of your sweat pants being visible beneath your fine knee cops.
3. All daggers in leather sheaths.
4. Maybe a few shields allowed on each side- they are mentioned in the accounts. Shields would have hit points. Yes.

Nothing but the tape.
Nothing but the tape.
Chant it with me....

NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!

[Malcolm_Mor]

Just checked the dates. Thought I'd somehow missed seeing Jehan at Pennsic - I gather, then, you speak of the next Pennsic, Jehan?

I will look forward to meeting you for some good and old fashioned echanges between men of war who love to strive against worthy opponents, and it will be my pleasure to offer you the Horn of Brotherhood in the Ring Tribe camp, filled with the libation of your choice.

[Gwydion Caithnes]

Are you trying to publicly shame my squire?

Of course not, my lord knight. Merely some good-natured ribbing between squires. Apologies if any have taken offense - the vow itself was a valiant one. What remains rests between you and your squire.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Clarification accepted. Thank you.

[Gwydion Caithnes]

I think I saw a slat-backed Iron Age helmet in one of the Thirty photos this year.

Don't remember seeing that on the field, and I don't have it in any of my own pictures. (Which means only that - certainly could'a been there.) I do remember being slightly surprised by the Crusader-era helm and tabard I saw. It was a very nice kit, but I thought a little out of period for the Thirty. There was a wonderful bascinet + great helm combo out there that blew my mind...(pictured above in James B.'s post).

"The 14th-Century Mafia Rules!!"

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Yes, we do.