Combat of the Thirty Report

[Guy Dawkins]

Agreed!
We need to wrap our brains around the fact that not everyone should expect to be able to join this endevour. It is the grail we seek but may never attain. It is an ideal of what SCA combat could be if we want it to be. Granted, many do not want it to be like this. And you are welcome to that point of view as many are to this one. But for those who do, it is a benchmark to test your own harness against.
Since the day I watched the first CoT, it has been the harnesses displayed at it that have influenced my own, feeble attempts at portraying a man at arms of the 14th century.

Keep raising the bar.
I may never reach it but if the bar were not high it would not be worth reacing for.

Gwydion, are you trying to publicly shame my squire?

I will continue to rail against grilles because the bascinet with the grille is the quickest way of making a person think "SCA Combat."
I don't want to think that, and glaring SCAisms that we are all used to can easily be eliminated by banning grilles from this, the coolest mini-event in the Known World.
I am working on something that has tighter 14th century parameters, and I will do an event at Pennsic if the Thirty doesn't improve. I think I saw a slat-backed Iron Age helmet in one of the Thirty photos this year. Really, I don't care how much you love certain friends that may want to be in the Thirty- if they don't have the proper gear they should not be allowed to participate.
The goal is to have 60 14th century guys who meet the "nothing but the tape" standard. Why does everything get continually watered down?

The goals for all who want to enter the Thirty in 07 should be-

1. Get some 14th century finger gauntlets.
2. Get some GREAVES, even if they are simple studded leather that only cover the front of your shins. Any idiot can make these- there is no excuse for the bottom of your sweat pants being visible beneath your fine knee cops.
3. All daggers in leather sheaths.
4. Maybe a few shields allowed on each side- they are mentioned in the accounts. Shields would have hit points. Yes.

Nothing but the tape.
Nothing but the tape.
Chant it with me....

NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!
NOTHING BUT THE TAPE!

[Malcolm_Mor]

I will do an event at Pennsic if the Thirty doesn't improve. I think I saw a slat-backed Iron Age helmet in one of the Thirty photos this year. Really, I don't care how much you love certain friends that may want to be in the Thirty- if they don't have the proper gear they should not be allowed to participate.

And even being an "Iron Age Guy" I concur.

This is a historical event that can be absolutely recreated, and it should be. It is what makes it a marvel to behold.

[SirAngus]

Sure there were guys using giant hammers and iron bars.. They were dirty mercs....

Are you trying to represent a dirty merc? Most people I saw out there were trying to represent a knight from that period....

Are we trying to represent a knightly clash of brothers or are we trying to represent a clash of nobility vs. sellswords where eventually the nobles had to cheat to win? I think we are trying to replicate something that is in the chivalric and brave spirit of the original combat of the 30, not the actual thing....

[SirAngus]

Sure there were guys using giant hammers and iron bars.. They were dirty mercs....

Are you trying to represent a dirty merc? Most people I saw out there were trying to represent a knight from that period....

Are we trying to represent a knightly clash of brothers or are we trying to represent a clash of nobility vs. sellswords where eventually the nobles had to cheat to win? I think we are trying to replicate something that is in the chivalric and brave spirit of the original combat of the 30, not the actual thing....

[SirAngus]

Sure there were guys using giant hammers and iron bars.. They were dirty mercs....

Are you trying to represent a dirty merc? Most people I saw out there were trying to represent a knight from that period....

Are we trying to represent a knightly clash of brothers or are we trying to represent a clash of nobility vs. sellswords where eventually the nobles had to cheat to win? I think we are trying to replicate something that is in the chivalric and brave spirit of the original combat of the 30, not the actual thing....

[Murdock]

"I think I saw a slat-backed Iron Age helmet in one of the Thirty photos this year."

There were a few folks watching on the sidelines in partial gear but i do not remember seeing one on the field.

Sir Angus i think i have mispoked to lead you to believe that i disagreed with your overall idea of "trying to replicate something that is in the chivalric and brave spirit of the original combat of the 30, not the actual thing...."

I even said something akin to that myself in an earlier post "The description gives me more of the impression of a gang fight than a Pas. But this is supposed to be based on the 30 not an exact reenactment. "

I think in my referencing of the actual deed i failed to convey my true feeling, falsely leading you to believe there was disagreement with you in what the Pennsic 30 should fundamentally be. This is not the case, i was simply referencing the weapons and circumatsnaces for the sake of perspective, and to contrast what we were striving for to what actually was.

If in the clumsyness of my posting i have offended you, such was not my intent. I too believe the 30 should be a beautiful, powerful, fun display of medieval martial culture

I enjoyed meeting you on the field, both in the 30 and at your deed of arms with the longswords. Our longsowrd fight was one of the highlights of Pennsic.

"1. Get some 14th century finger gauntlets."

Ummm those are still not quite the easiest thing to get. BAN plastic guants though. Maybe require em in 08. Clay can only make em so fast. i should have mine built in a few weeks, but i have Valerius to help my hammer reatred self.

"2. Get some GREAVES, even if they are simple studded leather that only cover the front of your shins. Any idiot can make these- there is no excuse for the bottom of your sweat pants being visible beneath your fine knee cops."

Zounds!!! Yes yes yes. Almost EVERYONE should have greaves on anyway, or at least something on their shins.

"3. All daggers in leather sheaths."
Yes daggers!!

"4. Maybe a few shields allowed on each side- they are mentioned in the accounts. Shields would have hit points. Yes."

Nothing says you couldn't bring a shileds afaik. I just think people elected not to in favor of 2 handed weapons which are more effective in the rules set of the 30. Now shield and mace, or warhammer would still work. In fact i might try a single handed war hammer and a shield next year. Anshelm had one that looked almsot real in his booth.

Nutting but the tape?? I'm working on it.

[Gwydion Caithnes]

"4. Maybe a few shields allowed on each side- they are mentioned in the accounts. Shields would have hit points. Yes."

Nothing says you couldn't bring a shileds afaik. I just think people elected not to in favor of 2 handed weapons which are more effective in the rules set of the 30.

One of my barony-mates was told he couldn't use his shield, despite its very period covering & heraldry.

[James B.]

There was a wonderful bascinet + great helm combo out there that blew my mind...(pictured above in James B.'s post).

That is my good friend Mathieu Chartrain; he has been working hard on his kit the last few years. I too want to move towards the bascinet and great helm combo with exchange visors for the bascinet.

Next year I hope to improve my chest armor, helm issues, and have a surcoat of silk backed with linen and hand embroidered. I plan to have a personal silk banner on the side of the field also.

Also I plan to have a sword belt with a back up hand an a half sword and dagger in sheaths.

2. Get some GREAVES, even if they are simple studded leather that only cover the front of your shins. Any idiot can make these- there is no excuse for the bottom of your sweat pants being visible beneath your fine knee cops.

While I agree this is better than nothing I just want to point out any armored man post 1370 should have metal legs with incased greaves.

Also for those who have finger gauntlets but sport arms or SCA arms that are not so good looking make a cote armor or at least a 2 layered version of a cote armor to cover your body and arms in the fashion of the Charles VI cote armor. It is period for 1380 and up and looks awesome:

[img]http://www.mallet-argent.com/images/pourpoint%201.jpg[/img]

You can see here quilted cote armor and the 2 layer types:

[img]http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishlibrary-store/Components/124/12416_2.jpg[/img]

[Gwydion Caithnes]

*sigh* I wish I could have gotten my closed greaves. I had an order in with Jeff H., but he had to back out due to his jousting schedule. At least I got the cuisses, and I managed to find a pair of half-greaves that work with the legs.

As to the gambeson, I've been fighting in something very similar for years. Just about to start on a new one (my next "Pennsic project...") But I usually end up covering it in a heraldic tabard of some kind, and I think this time I'm gonna go with a Churburg breastplate, and not cover it.

Although, my knight (who fought in the Thirty this year) has had substantial success with velvet-covered plates...hmmm...

[SirAngus]

No worries Murdock.. No offense taken

I really think that the combat of the 30 could really do with a website. That way we can show what actually happened and then try to show what we are trying to do. As I said before it is much more of the spirit of this fight that makes it more enjoyable. I just think we have to get everyone on the same page

I'm still not a fan of fingered gauntlets in SCA combat. I have em.. I just use them for jousting, not fighting... Period gauntlets where there so your fingers didnt get severed.. They still got broken, but a period doctor could set those. He couldnt reattach fingers... Heck, even Fiore in his armoured combat section shows attacks to breat the opponants fingers through thier gauntlets....

[Cet]

While I agree this is better than nothing I just want to point out any armored man post 1370 should have metal legs with incased greaves.

Unless he's basing his portrayle upon
Chuacers' Knight; the effigies of Walter von Hohenklingen (1380); the Visby Knight (1375);Gottfried von Ansberg; Hartmann von Kronenberg; the St George Statue in Prague; The tomb of Frederico Cavali; the knights in Royal MS 15D VI; Splinted greaves in memlings' St Ursala, Churburg S11. etc....

[James B.]

Dave

The Churburg S11 is a good example against what I said but most of the others are not examples of typical French or English armors, maybe if you are a German merc these work .

The effigies of Walter von Hohenklingen, is he only wearing front greaves? I do not have a super detailed photo.


Anyway for French or Englishmen case greaves seem much more typical in the artwork and effigies, I hope to see more metal than leather for the 1370 and up crowd

[white mountain armoury]

Why would you have armour from 1370 and up for an event that took place in 1351? Unless my understanding of hte date is wrong.
The presence of several german mercenaries makes kits of german style appropriate

[Leo Medii]

Being involved in the 30 several years ago insipred me to improve my SCA equipment, and inspired me to be more accurate and more attentive to the details of my portrayal and what I wanted to accomplish as an SCA re-enactor.

If it does the same for ONE other SCA fighter because of what they saw at Pennsic I don't care how many complaints it gets.

[James B.]

Why would you have armour from 1370 and up for an event that took place in 1351?

The date of the real 30 was 1351 but the vast majority of kits are closer to 1390 - 1410 armor wise. Lots of Churburg breast plates, pig face visors, cote armors, and angle wing surcoat. It becomes a 14th century mixed bag. I am good with that but I would like to see consistency with each persons kit; don't add 1360 legs to a 1370-1400 helm, breastplate, and arms.

[Gwydion Caithnes]

It becomes a 14th century mixed bag. I am good with that but I would like to see consistency with each persons kit; don't add 1360 legs to a 1370-1400 helm, breastplate, and arms.

Hmmm. Why not? Couldn't someone in period have obtained a new helm while still wearing their eight-to-ten year-old legs? Or vice-versa? How often did knights "change their suits?" Or get new(er) equipment.

Philosophically I don't have a problem with what you're saying in general, but there may be a point at which we are getting "too" picky.

I guess I'm asking, is there no scenario where someone might be wearing slightly "mis-matched" kit? I don't want to see a Crusader helm with Cherburg plate, and I'm a confirmed member of the "14th Cent. Mafia." But isn't trying to distinguish 1360 from 1380 (or 1400, for that matter) pushing things, a bit?

[white mountain armoury]

Sure James, i understand your point. I had thought you were implying the earlier/german style was not correct.
I hope to be involved next year, armed in the german fashion circa 1350.

[Cet]

First off James you did not restrict your statement to Franco/English harness. Chaucer is English, RMS IVD is French. Memling is Netherlands.
Further many of the kits worn in the SCA thirty are as much German in character as they are English or French. Most of them are Generic SCA 14th century and not identifiable as being specific to any nationality at all.

Your making a broad generalization without providing any supporting evidence, I was able to list a wide range of exceptions to your rule pretty much of the top of my head. I could add splinted greaves in the Guiron le Courtois, and Lancelot manuscripts ( Northern Italian), The Bernabo Visconti monument, and that many of the greaves shown in English effigies could as easily be hardened leather as metal.

Hohenklingen is wearing splited lower leg defenses composed of two or three pieces joined by straps but not meeting at their edges- fairly common in art from the HRE.

[Damien381]

Watched the battle for the first time this year while attending to my king and it well surpassed what I was expecting. I was more than inspired by the display to say the least.

I would also like to thank Sir Nigel for the invitation to show up as a possible alternate and was floored at even the idea of participating, however I knew my kit was not even close and didn't want to be "that guy" even if I didn't have a bar grill. While I do have a kit that I used to think was close to being online with this, I have since been educated on where it really needs to be.

None the less I was more than happy to watch and appreciate everyone elses hard work that they have put in to their kits. Thanks to those that put in that extra little effort, it makes it that much easier for the rest of us to have an example.

Now I'm going to get back to shopping around for full legs and sabatons..

[James B.]

Your making a broad generalization without providing any supporting evidence, I was able to list a wide range of exceptions to your rule pretty much of the top of my head. I could add splinted greaves in the Guiron le Courtois, and Lancelot manuscripts ( Northern Italian), The Bernabo Visconti monument, and that many of the greaves shown in English effigies could as easily be hardened leather as metal.

You are correct I made too broad a generalization, I look at so many English and French effiges and art from the 1370-1410 era and see a sea of full greaves and focus in on them.

Dave would you say it is fair to claim full greaves are more common in English and French effiges and manuscripts than splinted or frontal greaves?

[Gwydion Caithnes]

Dave would you say it is fair to claim full greaves are more common in English and French effiges and manuscripts than splinted or frontal greaves?

I'm gonna jump in here and say that this is certainly true, although you have to keep in mind a couple of things about effegies and period illustrations: they were very often made many years after the event which they are portraying. So it's not at all uncommon to have "later period" armors showing depictions of "earlier period" events and personages.

For example, I remember reading somewhere that some effigies were done as many as thirty years after the person died. Crusaders are often shown in full plate, sabotons, etc.

That doesn't necessarily negate your point about the use of such armours, but it's an important matter to consider when using such art and artifacts as evidence or documentation.

The other thing to consider, in terms of the (SCA) Battle of the Thirty, is that closed greaves, finger gauntlets, etc., are somewhat difficult and/or expensive to come by for many. I'm not suggesting a relaxing of armour standards for such deeds - just realize that there may ultimately be a "ceiling" in terms of what can be expected, in much the same way that we "have" to allow duct tape and rattan...

I overheard an interesting conversation with a well-respect AEthelmearc knight whose persona is 11th Century. This knight has spent his SCA career researching the period, and is one of the more "historically accurate" personages I witnessed this past Pennsic. He was lamenting that he is excluded from participating in the Hastings re-enactment this year, because his kit does not meet the standards. Now, I'm no 11th Cent. expert, but at a spear's throw (and even close-up), this guy's kit certainly looks the part.

Rules are rules, and I have to admit to becoming more of an "authenticity nazi" myself, as my SCA career has proceeded. But sometimes I scratch my head...to my mind, arguing ten or twenty years (maybe even thirty) one way or the other may be promulgating standards that are somewhat unreasonable for even a specific feat like this at Pennsic. YMMV, of course...

[Cet]

For the English probalby yes, though when looking at Effigies for men a arms of lower than Earl rank or great captains more of the greaves, full or otherwise look like they could be leather.
It's a bit misleading that the English effigies most often published are of atypical men- The BP for example, who are likely to have had inovative harnesses for their time. Even so, written records from the period often list schynbalds,front greaves etc... .

French is another matter as it's very hard to find images of French effigies. Based on what I have seen front greaves seem a bit more common among the French, though the sample availale to me is small.

[Cet]

This has gone of topic ( not that I ever mind discussing the minutae of regional amour syles in the 14th century)

To maybe bring things back:

The Thirty was a brawl- a fight al outrrance by men at arms on opposite sides one of the most rancorous conflicts in medieval history. The men who fought it were men at arms of no exceptional note at the time. Not "dirty mercs" but men serving forign Princes for pay as is honorable for men of the second estate.

The original conception of the Thirty, as intended by Count Rhys, was to capture the hard constaint of these men, chivalrous to be sure but tough, hard fighting. Tougher than your average SCA combat. It is not about ransoms, it is not about refreshments, or making it last for hours by gaming rules, it is not about Victorian ideals regarding "ideal Knights".

You want it to last longer? require harder blows to best you, you want refreshments? drink your blood. Donate your ransoms to charity and carry your bruises as trophies.

Everything I'm hearing here shoots spot on to the heart of the critiscisms I'v always heard re' the Touney Companies: they are about looking cool and not about the fighting. The Thirty is about fighting! Medieval fighting as close as we can get within outrr construct.

Befor the first 30 I believe it was Sir Kieran who addressed the assembled sides to say that he accepted that he might be broken in this deed and that he accepted and embraced that possibility. That is the attitude intended originally and I hope the attitude that will prevail.

Cet Donegal
Squire to his Grace Ronald Wilmot
Tennan of the Company of St Michael
OTC, OM, OL

[Gwydion Caithnes]

The original conception of the Thirty, as intended by Count Rhys, was to capture the hard constaint of these men, chivalrous to be sure but tough, hard fighting. (snip) Everything I'm hearing here shoots spot on to the heart of the critiscisms I'v always heard re' the Touney Companies: they are about looking cool and not about the fighting. The Thirty is about fighting! Medieval fighting as close as we can get within outrr construct.

Yes, the fighting is important. But I was also playing when Rhys started St. Michael, and I'm pretty sure that more accurate kit (whether you call that "looking cool" or not) was also one of his key interests.

In that context, I can't agree that the Thirty is mainly about hitting people.

And frankly, I also think the ransom element is "way cool." We don't do enough of that in the SCA, IMHO. I don't want to see the thing turn into a "Warcraft" scenario, but I don't see anything terribly wrong with what happened this year.

Mind you, my unofficial motto is, "If you can't fight well, leave a good-looking corpse...!"

[white mountain armoury]

Well said Cet

[SirAngus]

Cet, I think the only way to rectify it is to say, you are stunned when you are stunned... You take as much punishment as you can take and then you can cry enough.

I honestly dont think you will find 60 combattants with period kit willing to do that.

It would certainly make people wear better armour!

[Leo Medii]

Befor the first 30 I believe it was Sir Kieran who addressed the assembled sides to say that he accepted that he might be broken in this deed and that he accepted and embraced that possibility. That is the attitude intended originally and I hope the attitude that will prevail.

Yes, that was I. I was also "reminded" before the battle that we had to follow the rules of SCA combat and not get too crazy.
I'm glad they told me that because I was under the impression that it was a wild brawl to the yield and had fully intended to fight as such.

Of course, I'm not your average SCA fighter.

[Gregoire de Lyon]

Of course, I'm not your average SCA fighter.

Yeah, I'd grade you at a C- at best....

[James B.]

The Thirty is about fighting! Medieval fighting as close as we can get within outrr construct.

Well said, I joined in the Thirty and the As Real Men Fought tournaments because I wanted rules that gave us a medieval brawl closer to the real thing than the normal SCA combat rules give us. The look has always been secondary in my mind to the fighting; my above suggestions were only meant to help people improve their look not as possible restrictions for those in the combat.

[Adrielle Kerrec]

http://www.tworavens.org/gallery/v/2006 ... batofthe30

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Those photos are seriously amazing.
First rate.

[audax]

MIstress Adrielle,

Those photos are truly aewsome. Thank you.

I am feeling greatly inspired by Duchess Eanor. Man, I love to see a woman fighter in good looking armor.

I simply must participate in this event one day.

audax

[Josh W]

Spiffy.

[Jehan de Pelham]

Duchess Eanor! Her Grace! God keep her.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

[Murdock]

Just thought i'd share some art, painting of the 30