The Armour Archive

Audax

I have only put the question of female fighters forward for use to decide on, the Emprise not being a living history event but having strict requirements requires the question be asked to know what level we are looking at.

Alexander

Your the answer to your forth question is the answer to many of your others. Sir Angus idea as far as I see it is to do a full immersion event at Pennsic when we already have so many high quality people gathered in one place. Heck even the famous La Belle company has members (besides Master G) at Pennsic. This isn't about showing people how cool it is to be period but to get lost in the moment for those already in the know.


Your third question is a good one I have been thinking of. I think we should have a few well placed photographers and ask participants to not take their own pictures. If we pre arrange it then the professional photos can go online for all to view.

I'll dig them flies out. EDIT: James fished one out while I was writing this.

1. False Dilemma. I don't agree necessarily that this event is for inspiring others. I also don't agree that the high fidelity crowd is obligated to pursue what they pursue for the purpose of inspiring others. This may be a fortunate side effect, but in truth those who are called to such achievements in kit and presentation do it because they love it, and in a lot of cases still, they do so against the scorn and snickering of others--those others that Black Flag speak of who can't do themselves. There are other events that people can see which can inspire them. It wouldn't be wrong to hold an event for the already inspired.

2. Unfair Comparison. Crossroads in Time clearly states requirements, and I as the event organizer and the participants themselves are completely within my right to defend the participants' right to have what they have been led to reasonably expect. Pennsic gives no clear requirements, as its size precludes any essence of control. If I follow the logic of your argument, what you are saying is that because Pennsic is a trucker-cap, sunglasses, and flamingo-friendly setting that a high fidelity required area is an affront to a Pennsic attendee's expectations. This is false as it assumes that anyone attending Pennsic has any right to expect anything, ridiculous given the sheer unfocused nature of the event. What sort of backlash from the masses do you imagine? Sticks on fire? No. Perhaps the mayor might refuse the requirements of the event, but if he did, that would be a specific case, and probably related to the exigencies of the event--ie: Pennsic may not have room for such an event or such an event may intrude on other already established market expectations.

3. Assumption of Dilemma. Photographs can be taken before and after the event of individuals. The event itself can be recorded without distracting the participants through a clever use of concealment. Recording this event in photographs should be way down the list of priorities.

4. Suggestion to take the path of past failure. As Malcolm Mor has stated elsewhere, groups who break off often find themselves great guns in the liberating atmosphere of freedom from lower expectations, but without the mirror against which to reflect one's efforts, they disintegrate over time. The correct thing to do is the punk rock approach. Step into the controversy. Walk right into the place where it is most needed and say truth. Wear the full plate among the spun domes, black leather and plastic and say "We claim this place to be exempt from lowered expectations."

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compagniye Store

Oh. And I recommend just ignoring the issue of female fighters. Though we understand that the practice of crossdressing was definitely dealt with in a harsh manner in the 14th century, we'd best not entertain even any flirtation with the idea that this event will deny women to enjoy the freedoms which they have become wont to enjoy.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compagniye Store

servus!

I was unaware that it was a "immersion for the paricipants" only event and most of my questions were formed around the assumption that it was to be educational/inspirational.

Your points are well made and I understand your motivation behind your answers. I was incorrect to misinterpret your answer to me. For that, I do apologize.

You basically said that those who aspire to achieve such an event should be careful, or afraid of public backlash. I repudiate that notion. Who dares to say to those who bring pink flamingos that they should not do so? Your questions come from a place where I do not stand, a place where one questions why one would seek to attempt the highest level of immersion and presentation, and also questions whether such efforts do not owe others something.

Some of the ideas you proposed--your flies in the soup--asked for stout answer, because they introduce the possibility of contentious debate where strongly articulated vision is better.

Though not you, good cousin. For love of our lords who are friends and who have led us both to where we are in the life of arms, please don't take what I said ill. Why this peevishness? PM me please.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compagniye Store

Concerning the cross-dressing of women as spectators....

The ratio of cross-dressing 14thc women to every other kind of woman at Pennsic is extremely rare.

Also, those who do it do it better than most other people are doing historical clothing at Pennsic, all time periods included. (I don't entirely agree with James's assessment that it was done poorly by the women doing it... compared to the guys, I saw an equal level of getting it right and getting it wrong across both sexes.) I'm throwing out all arguments re: period references to such things and just going on the visual impact here.

(As an aside, I did it briefly as a result of my desire to begin making 14thc male clothing while not having any willing bodies at my disposal to dress (my husband did an entirely different period). I called what I did "a conceit" and still view it that way because the one reference by Henry Knighton in the Chronicon from 1348 or so isn't really enough to tell me decisively that such women were a norm at tourneys/deeds of arms.)

And, if this is one of the worst problems your Emprise has (female cross-dressing), you are doing mighty fine at a place like Pennsic. I think the Emprise would be better served by advertising early and often what the minimal standards are across the board for aspirants of both martial and civilian variety, and give everyone the chance to take this upcoming year to get a kit ready that meets the standards. Let them understand that they WILL be vetted by a panel before the deed of arms.

THERE IS ONE YEAR TO DO IT. As long as people get the chance to know well in advance what is expected of them, this deed of arms would have a chance of having a well-dressed and populous crowd in attendance in addition to the well-accoutered combatants.

One way to pre-vet would be to ask that spectators apply in advance for their "tickets" by submitting a picture of them in their kit. This could be done all the way up to a few weeks before the event... Provided the opportunity was well-advertised, no-one could claim they'd been unfairly excluded by not having been given a chance.

Just more thoughts...

-Tasha

I don’t think that Jehan “stomped on youâ€

THAT is humility.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compagniye Store

Tasha for the record I thought the images of the ladies, including yourself, that you dressed in 14th c men's clothing looked great. There was something off putting by women in rolled down hose (or a lack of hose) with exposed braies and linen gowns I saw at Pennsic, but that is just my opinion.

James, I didn't think you were referring to me at all actually, since I haven't shown up in public in YEARS wearing that getup, so no worries...

I was just saying that at Pennsic this year I saw a rather even distribution across the sexes of "good" versus "bad". To me, there was no differentiation between male/female, only the visual impact of the clothing itself.

Because if I start looking more critically at things while at Pennsic, I'm going to have to poke my eyes out, and I like them and their ability to see things.

-Tasha

" 1) If you restrict the level of authenticity of the spectators, who will be able to come see this spectacle and be inspired to reach such heights if the only people who are allowed in are those who have already attained that level of authenticity?"

Yes, and those that decide to put the effort forth to come.

"2) You are, in essence, creating a Living History-style display in the middle of the largest SCA event there is."

Yup, whats wrong with that. The SCA claims to be a living history group in it's published explanation of what it is.

": Imagine if, in the middle of "A Crossroads in Time", some crossover SCA members decided to host a "traditional" SCA encampment - complete with Coleman chairs, lawn flamingoes, and "Naked Heavy List" tabards for all entrants."

Crossroads is not Pennsic, Pensic is not Crossroads. That stuff isn't _supposed_ to be at Pennsic either.

"No one would be let into the encampment without a check of garb - sunglasses and trucker caps are mandatory!"

Pennsic is already full of that. Do you think that it's a good thing?

" I doubt that Jehan and the other attendees of "Crossroads" would be particularly thrilled. Now, I'm not saying that you should lift your authenticity requirements one bit to accommodate the rest of Pennsic but prepare yourself for backlash from the masses."

We kinda know that, this taint fer da masses. And if your not saying lift the requirements what are you saying? If ya hav'nt noticed we kinda _are_ the backlash.

Pennsic already has a tons of "non SCA" stuff. And many people isnsist all the time that it's not an SCA event. Esp when it comes to elves, Chux, people in mundanes the whole time ect ect. "They're just playing their game their way" is the mantra.
We're just doing our thing, hell we're gonna go off and play our game by ourselves (which i know i've been told to do more times than i can recall)

"Why don't you guys go off and run your own list/event/tourney ect. And when we do we get "You guys need to do this and be more inclusive". Caint make noone happy.

"Again, if you are trying to change things, how can people see and be astounded if the aren't allow to see until they have already achieved that level?"

They can go to HE over the next year and spend what comes out to a buck a day or so and order a basic outfit and walk out to the back of the woods, where we'll be. People who wanna see this will come see it will, people who don't wanna see it will not. We're not forcing anything on anyone. Which is what us "period nazis" are always accused of.

This is not to cange things, this is for us to enjoy ourselves at war. Just think of it as a private party with guest requirements. Ours just happens to have fighting going on too.

There are some who are offended by the mere pressence of Pas, the 30 or authenticity in general. This is not for them.

"3) How do you plan on recording this emprise for posterity?"

I don't

"A photographer and his implements of construction is jarring as hell, even if he's dressed in the appropriate clothing."

Then if we have one he can hide in the bushes or a tent. 1 camera is MUCH easier to overlook than 300 cars.

"Are you willing to make a concession for this and if "yes", why not for other things?"

Because it's our party and we don't wanna. You hold your own party and do it your way. (Ugg that even sounds dumb when i say it )


"4) Would this not be easier to achieve outside of the realm of the SCA?"

Cause we wanna do it at Pennsic. Wouldn't it be easier to do alotta things outside Pennsic? Like be an elf/farrie/vampire/caveman/Tuchuck/bondage goth goob ect ect ect ad naseum. But don't worry we'll hold stuff out side the SCA too.

Course we though holding a medieval tournament in a medieval orginization, espicaly one that does medieval (ish) fighting all the time, at the largest medievally themed event in the world, we thought that it was kinda self explaitiory.

We just wanna do something that we think will be fun for our friends while we're all together at Pennsic .

Murdock,

Again, my questions were formed under the assumption that this was to be an emprise to show others what could be accomplished.

I do not defend the ball cap and flamingo crowd - I wanted to merely point out that's how it may be taken by them.

I only wanted to bring up things that I felt hadn't been touched upon in the discussion. I repeat my statement about how much I admire all of you for attempting to achieve something so bold and unprecedented. I wish you all the best of luck and hopefully my kit will someday be of the level that such an emprise demands!

" Murdock,

Again, my questions were formed under the assumption that this was to be an emprise to show others what could be accomplished."

Yeah there were about a half dozen posts while i was writing.

"I do not defend the ball cap and flamingo crowd - I wanted to merely point out that's how it may be taken by them."

I've dealt with them extensively. I don't play for them. And if you are who i think you are neither do you.

"I only wanted to bring up things that I felt hadn't been touched upon in the discussion. I repeat my statement about how much I admire all of you for attempting to achieve something so bold and unprecedented."

Thanks, lets hope it actually comes off. Loonnngg road between talking and doing.

" I wish you all the best of luck"

Thanks we're gonna need it.

" and hopefully my kit will someday be of the level that such an emprise demands! "

You've gota a year, i'd bet you can do it if you try.

My hard kit won't be up to this, but my soft kit is. So I'll spectate. And I'll try to get Ursus into a minimum soft kit so he can attend and take pictures.

Digging into my book of ideas I find some thoughts I had on doing something similar to this at Pennsic:

1) Approach the Coopers and discuss renting a portion of the property for one day during Pennsic. This allows the organizers to sidestep SCA regulations by having an event in close conjunction with Pennsic, but not actually at Pennsic. Disadvantages to this approach are the degree of cooperation required, possible need for insurance, and increased costs. Advantages of sidestepping SCA regulations include increased leeway. Simple example: If you want to have a tournament using batons without simulated edges denoted by tape then you need to apply for a Society level variance from the Marshal of the Society (because the weapon construction standards are set at the Society level).

2) A very simple website that acts as a clearing house for information including:
a) A picture of the absolute-minimum soft and hard kit for men and women. Probably a good idea to have links to construction articles and merchants for the soft kit.
b) The list of forbidden items (sunglasses, etc...)
c) The purpose of the event (which y'all are doing a good job of stating).
d) The format of the event (schedule, standards of behavior, etc...)

3) If possible you should have regional contacts who can answer questions in person.

4) Rehersals. Folks should try to run small local versions of these events during the time leading up to the event. This helps people get their kit together and produces lessons learned.

" Oh. And I recommend just ignoring the issue of female fighters. Though we understand that the practice of crossdressing was definitely dealt with in a harsh manner in the 14th century, we'd best not entertain even any flirtation with the idea that this event will deny women to enjoy the freedoms which they have become wont to enjoy."

If the kit is right you really can't tell who's in it with the visor down.

While women fighting in 14th century tourneys is not period. With a globose on and a klappvisor down no one will care for the purposes of this list.

I'm more concerned with the accuracy of the equipment and the attitude of the fighter than anything else.

Salve Alexander,

I apologize for the strenuous nature of my replies. I felt that you were bringing nagging doubt into the discussion of a vision, which might derail it.

Here is what I feel regarding the questions, from a more congenial standpoint:

1. If you restrict the level of authenticity of the spectators, who will be able to come see this spectacle and be inspired to reach such heights if the only people who are allowed in are those who have already attained that level of authenticity?

I would say that only those who have been informed of such a gathering sufficiently ahead of time to prepare for it. That would be to say, those who are already called to some degree to faithful representations of the mid to late 14th century. This would limit the number of spectators considerably, so the way to go around it is to promote early and get the word out, so that those who are inspired by the excellent efforts in this regard could make arrangements. Not necessarily to attend in hard kit, but to put together a proper soft kit.

2. You are, in essence, creating a Living History-style display in the middle of the largest SCA event there is. Imagine if, in the middle of "A Crossroads in Time", some crossover SCA members decided to host a "traditional" SCA encampment - complete with Coleman chairs, lawn flamingoes, and "Naked Heavy List" tabards for all entrants. No one would be let into the encampment without a check of garb - sunglasses and trucker caps are mandatory! I doubt that Jehan and the other attendees of "Crossroads" would be particularly thrilled. Now, I'm not saying that you should lift your authenticity requirements one bit to accommodate the rest of Pennsic but prepare yourself for backlash from the masses. Again, if you are trying to change things, how can people see and be astounded if they aren't allow to see until they have already achieved that level?

The long answer here comes from your long question, and the complicated thoughts accompanying it. Forgive me for writing so long, for I did not have the time to be concise.

I think that in this case, you're making the false assumption that the SCA is about Coleman chairs, lawn flamingoes, and "naked heavy list" when in fact these aberrations are tolerated out of a sense of gentle tolerance that quite dis-serves the purported aim of the SCA. It's not hard to come to the conclusion that you've come to--it's become so common to see a Coleman chair at an SCA event with a celtic knotwork tie-dyed throw tossed over it that it's almost an institution.

Regarding the comparison between Crossroads in Time and Pennsic, it's not such a good comparison, because the two are quite different in their scope, aim, and purpose. Pennsic has become a medieval and fantasy nexus, where there is very little expectation of adherence to any particular motif, while Crossroads in Time, while allowing a timeline over two hundred years, expects rigorous adherence to faithful medieval design and execution of coherent portrayals by the participants. Again, I suggest that anyone who were to come to Crossroads in Time to erect a "traditional SCA enclave" would be doing so in defiance of the stated expectations of the event, and I would be absolutely within my rights to cause them to be ejected without recourse. Anyone executing a high fidelity enclave at Pennsic would be doing so in defiance of...what? Certainly not any implicit or explicit expectations for conduct or portrayal. Perhaps what sticks in your craw is this emprise's defiance of what Pennsic has become, and using Pennsic rather than letting Pennsic use it.

Now, if this leads to "backlash from the masses," then what does it say about them that they would crash a party, scorn the dreams of others, and piss on their efforts and labors. If a eighteen year old bisexual nymph wearing nothing but body paint crashed the family camps, inspiring young men, and sowing the seeds of hundreds of car fights between man and wife, it would be the same level of disrespect that someone not adhering to the ideals of this emprise demanding to participate to its detriment.

Now, addressing your question, which asks how an event which limits participation to those who already get it to some extent, can be an inspiration to those who don't, I say that the internet and word of mouth is a wonderful tool for getting this word out. This event need not be a large event to start. It need never be a large event. It need merely cleave to an ideal. If that ideal is true, and it gives pleasure to those who love it, then it will endure, no matter the size. Let there be one true thing that is not watered down or weakened year by year, I beg.

3. How do you plan on recording this emprise for posterity? A photographer and his implements of construction is jarring as hell, even if he's dressed in the appropriate clothing. Are you willing to make a concession for this and if "yes", why not for other things?

I would say that I wouldn't suggest making a concession for photography. a forest of tripods surrounding the event would be just as bad as no record of the event--perhaps worse. I would suggest that photography and video recording be limited during the event, and done in a clever manner that conceals the modern devices. Also, that promotional photographs and memorabilia shots could be taken before and after the event.

4. Would this not be easier to achieve outside of the realm of the SCA?

Would not the Tuchux be easier to achieve outside the realm of the SCA? Would not the replication of Japanese portrayals be easier to achieve outside the SCA? Would not the Roman legions be easier to achieve outside the SCA? No. Indeed none of these would. The SCA is the fecund ground where American medievalists get their start, by and large. It is also where the vast majority of deeds of arms are done in the United States, like it or lump it. Also, when efforts leave the SCA, they have tended to wither, with some notable exceptions. It pays to bring this vision to the place where the most people can see it. One does not hide a lamp under a bushel, does he? No. He shows it so that its light can serve. Plus, Pennsic is a huge draw for even the people who would participate in such an event.

I hope that these answers better serve pleasant discourse on this topic.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compagniye Store

OMG.

An SCA activity that very much like to help with. I'd like to be on whatever committee or whatever you set up.

Alexander,

The soul of this is that Pennsic is an easy place because of its size, diversity, and the number of great attendees. The 30 as it is could happen nowhere else, and this is a similar expression of what WE want. I acknowledge the right of the Tuchux to attend and enjoy that event, and the right of those with a mind to to try to build a piece of the 14th Century to attempt it.

The thing IS the purpose. Not the inspiration of others, but to nurture the small flame of inspiration many of us have found in these endeavours that is keeping our hearts warm in what has become a long winter.

Four years ago my household men and friends took the field in gear of the same time and place, 1395. It so moved me that I went to my booth and sat and cried because it had opened a door I had not known could be opened.

At the Deed of the Couter this year I was simply awed by the same tears and expressions of hope on the faces of the people involved. Many of them came to me and said that it had saved them, that it had opened up to them what they had been looking for and not finding.

This tournament could be such a thing. If there are only five spectators in good clothes and two combatants it will have been a victory if they all find that moment they are seeking.

For my part, if I am unable or uninvited to compete, I will attend as a servant for that day to a lord of my choosing. If none will have my service I will attend as a lowly carter and move people's gear for pay.

Will you find a way to travel to this event and attend your knight?

Johannes,
I'm glad you found your fire again.

If I'm at Pennsic next year, I will be there as a spectator. I could only wish that the tourney were part of a longer immersion event, full or half day, to include a period feast or something on the civilian side of things. There's no reason that people can't do this longer than an hour or so. It's easier than it sounds.

A few thoughts....

On women. If a woman is participating in the tourney, then she shall be dressed as a man, and be able to pass for a man, whenever she is inside of the rope/realm. She should be padded out (or held in), and long hair hidden, cuteness of features and lack of five o'clock shadow notwithstanding.

On regalia. If it's not period to the 14th c., it doesn't come in. If somebody is lucky enough to have 14th c. regalia, bully for them. For crowns and other hats, part of the kit would have to be servants and other appropriate clothing.

On unacceptable stuff. It might be nice to have a safe place outside of the ropes somewhere, where people can leave items that they can't bring in. Kind of like a coat check?

On getting braies in a bundle. Too bad.

On weapons and fighting styles. Um. Is it still going to be SCA weapons, and SCA fighting?

On spectators. Is visible machine sewing ok?

Jeff J wrote:OMG.

An SCA activity that very much like to help with. I'd like to be on whatever committee or whatever you set up.

*Checks sky for pigs*

*Checks butt for flying monkeys*

SirAngus wrote:hmmm... Golden rope.....

We could have a giant golden rope all around the tourney... Everything in the rope would have to be 14th century.

I'm all for making people have an accurate 14th cent. soft kit under thier armour. Chausses, braes, turnshoes, etc...

I haven't had a chance to read thru all the pages yet, but when Tasha mentioned this to me yesterday, she thought this might be a good venue for the Company of Saint Michael's As the Seneschal of Saint Michael's, would y'all like me to talk with the Company about this very cool event? I'm betting that there are some of us who would LOVE to come and play (provided we can comply with the standards)!

Question:
I keep seeing the following comment in some variation:

My hard kit won't be up to this, but my soft kit is. So I'll spectate.

Spectate? Spectate?
How about participate! This event is going to need more than just fighters and spectators. It is going to need runners, heralds, servants, marshals (not really the SCA kind), attendents, loads of frelling stuff.
My goal is as follows. I am going to start working on my hard kit. If my hard kit is up to the Emprise standards, then I plan to fight in it. If it is not then at the very least I want it to be up to the Combat of the Thirty standards and do that next year, but I will be helping out with the Emprise. As a herald, marshal, attendent, whatever.

Tasha McG wrote:One way to pre-vet would be to ask that spectators apply in advance for their "tickets" by submitting a picture of them in their kit. This could be done all the way up to a few weeks before the event... Provided the opportunity was well-advertised, no-one could claim they'd been unfairly excluded by not having been given a chance.

I LOVE the idea of applying in advance for "tickets". Is a picture enough? Can pictures show enough detail? It's not just kit, but the whole thing - period-style chairs, furniture. Are the sunshades (used a lot by the St. Mike's folks) "period" enough? Who is the final word on the vetting?? (Sorry - still haven't read thru all 5 pages yet). This sounds SO cool!

Charlotte J wrote:

Jeff J wrote:OMG.

An SCA activity that very much like to help with. I'd like to be on whatever committee or whatever you set up.

*Checks sky for pigs*

*Checks butt for flying monkeys*

Silence woman!

You are SOOO going to be helping Tasha with the clothing standard and vetting part. Muriel too, I'll bet.

Charlotte J wrote:On regalia. If it's not period to the 14th c., it doesn't come in. If somebody is lucky enough to have 14th c. regalia, bully for them. For crowns and other hats, part of the kit would have to be servants and other appropriate clothing.

On unacceptable stuff. It might be nice to have a safe place outside of the ropes somewhere, where people can leave items that they can't bring in. Kind of like a coat check?

Coat Check is a great idea at the access/final vetting point. And no matter if people have been pre-vetted, you'll still have some that will forget an item or two.

Jeff J wrote:OMG.

An SCA activity that very much like to help with. I'd like to be on whatever committee or whatever you set up.

Charlotte J wrote:*Checks sky for pigs*

Charlotte J wrote:*Checks butt for flying monkeys*

Jeff J wrote:

Charlotte J wrote:On regalia. If it's not period to the 14th c., it doesn't come in. If somebody is lucky enough to have 14th c. regalia, bully for them. For crowns and other hats, part of the kit would have to be servants and other appropriate clothing.

On unacceptable stuff. It might be nice to have a safe place outside of the ropes somewhere, where people can leave items that they can't bring in. Kind of like a coat check?

Coat Check is a great idea at the access/final vetting point. And no matter if people have been pre-vetted, you'll still have some that will forget an item or two.

Jeff and I discussed this briefly on the phone. He had the excellent idea of providing some linen bags at the gate, for people to stash things in that they wouldn't feel comfortable leaving at a coat check.

Charlotte J wrote:Jeff and I discussed this briefly on the phone. He had the excellent idea of providing some linen bags at the gate, for people to stash things in that they wouldn't feel comfortable leaving at a coat check.

Shhh... don't give away our secrets.

Ya - some king might not feel comfortable leaving his crown behind. There could be some interesting conversations if people don't pay attention to the advance literature and signage.

Winterfell wrote:I will be helping out with the Emprise. As a herald, marshal, attendent, whatever.

Yeah, you do a great job at public announcement. It would be a loss if you weren't fighting though.

You are also good at knowing what was done at tourneys. I have a question for you on that: would there be other contests for the non-nobles at tourneys? I seem to recall squire's battles and the like as entertainments. Holding a few of those would flesh out the event since there are likely only going to be a few well-kittted full plate fellows. There could be a few combats of equally-authentic lighter-armored men. And what of archery?

Jeff J wrote:

Winterfell wrote:I will be helping out with the Emprise. As a herald, marshal, attendent, whatever.

Yeah, you do a great job at public announcement. It would be a loss if you weren't fighting though.

You are also good at knowing what was done at tourneys. I have a question for you on that: would there be other contests for the non-nobles at tourneys? I seem to recall squire's battles and the like as entertainments. Holding a few of those would flesh out the event since there are likely only going to be a few well-kittted full plate fellows. There could be a few combats of equally-authentic lighter-armored men. And what of archery?

Does anybody know the rules for WMA-type activites happening at Pennsic?

Charlotte J wrote:Does anybody know the rules for WMA-type activites happening at Pennsic?

Good question, the Tuchux have their tourney with grappling every year.

OTOH the Combat of the Thirty and the Historical Combat Sires have had to conform to society standards like no grappling. How ever both use alternative rule sets that allow for a harder style of combat. As Real Men Fought (ARMF) and Combat of the Thirty both recognize that armor worked. To be captured (30) or you lose (ARMF) if you take 3 blows in a row to the head from a pollarm, longsword, or mace. A thrust from a sword, dagger, or pollaxe to the open face (bargrill), under the arms, back of the leg (where un-armored), or groin is a death. If you are disarmed or fall to the ground and someone can declare you captured (30) or you lose (ARMF). Also in ARMF if you are pushed from the list you lose.

It should be noted all of the above are played with SCA legal weapons, I do not think we could get the OK to use blunted swords at Pennsic.

Does anybody know the rules for WMA-type activites happening at Pennsic?

They follow the same rules that the SCA has for WMA teaching and demos. No full contact non choreographed activities. Only one on one demo or learning, no multiple attacks from different people. (Bloody shame when you get to some techniques).
If there is any marshal activity (full contact non choreographed) a marshal of one of the now three discplines has to be there and the fighters have to conform to those rules. The three are: rattan combat in armour, rapier fencing (epee or schlager) or Cut and thrust (which would be actually be the first choice in my opinion)
This is something that both Christian Tobler and Brian Price have been dealing with at Pennsic for at least 4 years now.

As Real Men Fought (ARMF) and Combat of the Thirty both recognize that armor worked.

And- That wearing of said armor is a benfit during said combat and not a hinderance or disadvantage!

What about one on one, half-speed, non-choreographed, with wasters? Even if there were only a handful of people who could participate, this would certainly be the audience for it.

I'm also guessing that archery in a non-archery area is verboten?

The main tourney... Is this melee, or one on one? Forgive me if this has been answered. I tried to read the last five pages, but some stuff I skimmed.

I'm all for MORE activities! Let's go all day!