A 14th century tourney

[Winterfell]

I will be helping out with the Emprise. As a herald, marshal, attendent, whatever.

Yeah, you do a great job at public announcement. It would be a loss if you weren't fighting though.

You are also good at knowing what was done at tourneys. I have a question for you on that: would there be other contests for the non-nobles at tourneys? I seem to recall squire's battles and the like as entertainments. Holding a few of those would flesh out the event since there are likely only going to be a few well-kittted full plate fellows. There could be a few combats of equally-authentic lighter-armored men. And what of archery?

Well I am going to try to get a kit up to snuff to fight, but failing that I do want to still do some field work.
There were specific tournies for squires only. And I have to check but I recall certain melees where either men at arms helped fight, or they jumped into the fray to get their knight/lord out. Right now I am thinking that that was an earlier practice, but I could be wrong.
It would also depend on the tournament itself. Most of them were carnival like atmospheres with several days of tournaments, and nights of drinking and debauchery. (Pretty much what Pennsic is) There would not be any archery short of shooting at the butts. However a couple of things that can be worked in are: In between or before the main event:
Judicial duel between two non nobles. Merchants, widow and murderer, that sort of thing.
Judicial duel between two nobles. That could be done a number of ways. Such as described in "The Last Duel", but without horses.
Honour duels between two nobles. Usually not to the death. But the loser gets thrown over and out of the ring at the end.
Prowess duels (for lack of the proper term right now) where at the end both combatants walk out of the ring arm in arm.

And of course there is always the morality plays that were done on the sides or in betweens.

Hey can we get some kids to be "urchins" and "cut purses"?

[audax]

Cet, Jehan, James B. et al,

PLease accept my humble apologies for my outburst last night. I was overtired from a long day at work. An old button got pushed and I feel I over-reacted. You are all good brothers in arms and I appreciate the respect you show women fighters.

Regards,

audax

[Jehan de Pelham]

I'll tackle these, if nobody minds:

On weapons and fighting styles. Um. Is it still going to be SCA weapons, and SCA fighting?

I say yes. The trick is finding a construction technique that minimizes distraction. It can be done, it's just a matter of finding a way that works.

On spectators. Is visible machine sewing ok?

Yes!

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compagniye Store

[James B.]

Not a problem Audax, I was just putting forth the hard questions and it seems most are all for letting the ladies fight. Modern ideals vs. historical ideals get tricky and I can understand the frustration of being shut out based on gender or race instead of not meeting the kit requirements; this is why I thought we should talk about that point.



On visible machine sewing, I am good with that because it is a small detail not a glairing one.

On fabric; should we stick with linen, wool, and silk? I was thinking that modern velvets and decor fabrics should be banned. If you have silk velvet or silk damask then that is awesome, if it is cotton/poly/rayon/acetate it looks bad and I find it distracting. Those materials were super expensive then and they are now when you can find them, let’s keep the ratio correct. I would rather see solid color silks, linens, and wools than fake rich medieval fabrics. How do the rest of you feel?

[Kevin]

Question:
I keep seeing the following comment in some variation:

My hard kit won't be up to this, but my soft kit is. So I'll spectate.

Spectate? Spectate?
How about participate! This event is going to need more than just fighters and spectators.

When there's fighting going on, it's tough for a fighter to not fight. (Present company included.) However, what authenticity my kit does claim is 15c, so like the 30, this is out for me too.

[MelanieC]

I'm also guessing that archery in a non-archery area is verboten?

Uh, yeah.

I'm really jazzed about the Emprise and hope that we are able to pull it off. I do wonder, though, if all the infrastructure that people want to put into place (tents/galleries/extra combat areas) is going to be a problem with the amount and type of land we'll be working with. I haven't been to the woods battle area so I have no idea about the lay of the land up there. And if we had to go with battlefield area, we'll be competing for space with all the other activities that keep the battlefield occupied for most of the war.

[Tailoress]

On visible machine sewing, I am good with that because it is a small detail not a glairing one.

Potayto-potahto.

You guys don't even want fully-hidden plastic breastplates, but it's okay to have machine stitching in plain sight? Nailing down these requirements to every stickler's satisfaction is going to be harder than I thought.

-Tasha

[Keg]

I would rather see solid color silks, linens, and wools than fake rich medieval fabrics. How do the rest of you feel?

I totally agree. I think nice, basic clothing (which with effort can look dead sexy) is a million times better than some shiny, glittery, 'medjeeval' bollocks that some git has thrown together.

Sensible arts-nazi mentality would probably be the best I think.

Hopefully I can win the lottery between now and then so I can come over and play

[James B.]

Nailing down these requirements to every stickler's satisfaction is going to be harder than I thought.

I have to admit I have machined button holes on my linen pourpoint; it is also surged instead of hand finished on the inside so I can wash it. 70 buttons took long enough without doing 70 button holes.

I think the plastic rule is more about the feel and weight than the material itself.

Again everything is up for discussion but I feel this is one we could forgive to attract lots of spectators to beef up the atmosphere. If the majority disagrees than I am good with that

[Aaron]

Hey can we get some kids to be "urchins" and "cut purses"?

My kids won't even have to act for those parts. I love them, but I know they're working on learning ethics sometimes.

If we set them up as beggers or minstrals at Pennsic, we could probably pay off a pavilion (if we ever got the money from them).

[Cet]

On fabric; should we stick with linen, wool, and silk? I was thinking that modern velvets and decor fabrics should be banned.


Bit of a catch 22 since any one of sufficient rank and means appearing in a tournement should have coat armour of very high end textiles coupled with embroidery, bezant work etc.... I'm not necessarily adverse to setting this as a condition but it will certainly narrow the field of possible combatants even more.

If you really want to go the "only if you can afford the real thing route" in term of textile choice I don't think you can pull off having a tournement. Maybe a picinic og 14th century burghers and their servants around the archery butts.

The panoply of the Order of the Crescent guys ( Jeff, Toby etc...) is not generally "correct" material as far as I know but it creates the right impresion.

[James B.]

Good point Dave, maybe we should treat armored guys materials a little different than spectators?

[Sir Crispin]

"Now if they do a different period then thats a bit different. But still there are merchants and people have freinds. Sir Crispin was in a totally borrowed rig for the 30, he did it. Don't think he was the only one either. "

Hey, the greeves and sabatons where mine.

Here's my 2 cents regarding plastic as a 15th c visitor to the 14th for the BOT. I borrowed most of what I wore. It was all metal. I wore a mail fauld that was not required. I was shamed by my bargrill.

As I stood on the field waiting for the layon one of my teammates said to another, "I should be a little faster than most" as he tapped his b.plate and leg harness to show that it was NOT metal. I don't know if it was leather or plastic but the BOT assumes all are in PLATE. In this context what ever it was it was sport armour.

I say BAN PLASTIC.

Oh, I'll have a soft kit to be there for sure. Murrdock, do you want a really tall lacky?

Now returning to the 15th C

[Cet]

Audax,

No worries.

[Cet]

There is a range between gold lame and cloth of gold that can be found within modern textiles. I had a small collection of silk velvets ( some of which I lost at an event ) and some modern mixed textile velvets come quite close. If you can't be sure without a burn or bleach test it's probably OK.

As for Combat rules I'd suggest following Asbjorns aeas real men fought rules. A field of 12 or so combatants can last for several hours given those victory conditions.

[Gethin]

Concerning the cross-dressing of women

As an aside and having nothing to with the discussion-
Once worked at a theatrical costume shop that did Holloween rentals.
I once had a lady try on an Italian Ren outfit.
Oh my stars and garters!
Ever since, I have loved to see women wear mens 14th and 15th century
clothes.

As an aside, I did it briefly....

And I am fortunate to have been nowhere near you when you did. I am sure I would have made a complete fool of myself.

[Gilebert]

Do the kits justice and be real!

I say BAN PLASTIC.
[/qote]

If Murdock doesn't accept you Sir, I would be most honored... You gave me a good thrust to the face in the plate and maile tourney.

Oh, I'll have a soft kit to be there for sure. Murrdock, do you want a really tall lacky?

Now returning to the 15th C

[Charlotte J]

On visible machine sewing, I am good with that because it is a small detail not a glairing one.

Potayto-potahto.

You guys don't even want fully-hidden plastic breastplates, but it's okay to have machine stitching in plain sight? Nailing down these requirements to every stickler's satisfaction is going to be harder than I thought.

-Tasha

I'm actually torn on this one. All visible hand sewing would also mean that arming garments would be all hand quilted, etc.

I don't like the idea of hidden plastic, because it still *sounds* like plastic.

General question - is authenticity expected to be LH level?

[Muriel]

Um - I'm a fan of No visible machine sewing. YES - hand-quilting is a HUGE pain. BUT - it is certainly worth the effort - it looks very different from machine stitching. I can also tell you from experience that a completely hand-sewn and hand-quilted doublet only took about 200 hours. The quilting actually didn't take that long - that was the easier part of the project.

There's more than 200 hours between now and the tourney. AND there are probably several folks out there willing to do this for a) A&S purposes - getting to display the garment prior to the tourney b) for barter and c) for money.

I, personally, would love to see more hand-quilting.

BTW, I'm crazy and probably should be on medication!!!

[Muriel]

On fabric; should we stick with linen, wool, and silk? I was thinking that modern velvets and decor fabrics should be banned. If you have silk velvet or silk damask then that is awesome, if it is cotton/poly/rayon/acetate it looks bad and I find it distracting. Those materials were super expensive then and they are now when you can find them, let’s keep the ratio correct. I would rather see solid color silks, linens, and wools than fake rich medieval fabrics. How do the rest of you feel?

Don't forget - it doesn't HAVE to stay solid color. Embroidery, embroidery, embroidery! That works, too! OK - it takes lots of hours - but we still have lots of hours.

Oh - and PEARLS!! Lots of pearls. not the fakers - even the little ones from Fire Mountain (not that expensive) would be better. OOOOoooo

(getting more excited about this - all my labor intensive projects - embroidery and hand-quilting - have been for other people. Now - I have a reason to upgrade my own kit. OOOOooooo! )

[Charlotte J]

Um - I'm a fan of No visible machine sewing. YES - hand-quilting is a HUGE pain. BUT - it is certainly worth the effort - it looks very different from machine stitching. I can also tell you from experience that a completely hand-sewn and hand-quilted doublet only took about 200 hours. The quilting actually didn't take that long - that was the easier part of the project.

There's more than 200 hours between now and the tourney. AND there are probably several folks out there willing to do this for a) A&S purposes - getting to display the garment prior to the tourney b) for barter and c) for money.

I, personally, would love to see more hand-quilting.

BTW, I'm crazy and probably should be on medication!!!

Completely agreed, philosophically speaking. Are there enough people out there willing to do these for purchase? I'd say yes, but I'm probably entering the real world job market soon, and besides, we're going to pennsic! you should see my new to-do list!

Jeff's garment will be hand-quilted, but he's not fighting.

[Duane W]

I'm also guessing that archery in a non-archery area is verboten?

Uh, yeah.

I'm really jazzed about the Emprise and hope that we are able to pull it off. I do wonder, though, if all the infrastructure that people want to put into place (tents/galleries/extra combat areas) is going to be a problem with the amount and type of land we'll be working with. I haven't been to the woods battle area so I have no idea about the lay of the land up there. quote]

The "woods" area we are talking about is also refered to as the north staging area. It is located at the intersecti0on od Currie and Coopers roads. ( see link)

http://frontpage.velocity.net/duane/woods.htm

Access is through a one one dirt drive that goes up a small bump/crest and then opens on to a a gently sloping field. The field is surrounded on the east and south sides by woods and scrub plants and the north side by a thin line of trees. This is also the side where the houses are visable. The west side also has a house or two but they can be blocked out by the slight rise.

This area is big enough to park five rows of cars ( with access roads in front and behind them) for the length of a football field +. (I know, last year I ended up being a Marshal and a Traffic Cop) It would be fair to say that what is being planned will fit.


As to the question of archery and more activities in general I would like to say go for it but be careful of diluting the orginal idea. I have found that it is great to start something in smallish steps - It is too easy to become distracted by adding this and adding that until so many things are planned that one starts to feel overwhelmed and nothing gets done.

As to the archery in particular - you will need SCA Archery Marshals and follow their rules- not a problem but now they have to dress the part to fit in with the theme of the emprise. I don't know if you can find them but it might be worth a try. The site itself allows for a natural backstop so safety shouldn't be an issue as long a SCA set-up and range rules are followed.

If you would like actual photos of the area let me know. I live about 80 minutes from the site and I can get digital photos and post them to the web.


Alexander

[Murdock]

Machine sewing.

I have to get really close to tell how you sewed your kit. All i have to do is usually hear someone move to know the plastic is there, not always. It is more about more correct perormance and weight than aything else.

Course most of my spring stuff weighs less than the stuff Egg or Dark Victory make.

As for the length of the deed? Last more than an hour? Good gentels all i fully envisioned us making a day of it.

Modes of combat, SCA combat allows for alot of leeway. Pas rules, allow for alot. If we allow the combatants to choose how they will fight in each challenge i think this will work itself out.

This is one of the reason i keep suggsting a tree of Charlemange. Select the arms of the gentels you wich to fight, select the arms of peace or war, sleect the mode of combat; counted blows recieved, thrown, to the yeild, within the quarters ect ect.

The combat should be between the men on the field under the eyes of God.

"Oh, I'll have a soft kit to be there for sure. Murrdock, do you want a really tall lacky? " Lacky?? No good sir, you need to fight. I am sure we can get you outfitted again. Whats your head size? I have many helms. And we know you fit a fine 14th century rig already. You have a year to prepare.
You know you want to play. I will endevor to give you a proper pollaxe match.

Would Renault wish to get with Kate in preparing food for the nobels in attendence.?

[Muriel]

Um - I'm a fan of No visible machine sewing. YES - hand-quilting is a HUGE pain. BUT - it is certainly worth the effort - it looks very different from machine stitching.

Completely agreed, philosophically speaking. Are there enough people out there willing to do these for purchase? I'd say yes, but I'm probably entering the real world job market soon, and besides, we're going to pennsic! you should see my new to-do list!

Jeff's garment will be hand-quilted, but he's not fighting.

OK - I admit that visible hand-stitching IS a huge pain. AND one of my loves. As soon as I wrote that - I realized that when I make my new gallery/sunshade . . . I'm going to hand-stitch all visible seams and topstitching. HECK - If they can do that at the Viking Village at Ribe (Denmark) - I can do it, right?? (sigh) SO - maybe upgrading happens from year to year?? Gambsons etc, need to be hand-quilted, hand-made buttonholes etc for Year 2 - but for Year 1, lower standards?? Gosh - I don't know. (and DAMN - this hasn't happened yet - and already thinking about the next year).

I know a lot of folks here are interested in getting the armour feel and sound and look right - I guess I feel that way about the soft parts/bits. (mwhahaha)

AND - let's hear it for an ALL-Day event! WooT!

[Jehan de Pelham]

"Machine sewing."

I concur.

I love the idea of visible hand stitching only, but we have to have some area in which people can exceed the standards, if only to make my own efforts acceptable. And, you know, I don't have hardly any cloth visible in my harness, so I don't really have a dog in this hunt. But I know that lots of others do.

Tasha, the reason why plastic is eschewed while machine sewing embraced, is because the plastic is a material that didn't exist, while machine sewing is a technique that didn't exist.

And yes, let's hear it for an all day event.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compagniye Store

[Charlotte J]

As to the question of archery and more activities in general I would like to say go for it but be careful of diluting the orginal idea. I have found that it is great to start something in smallish steps - It is too easy to become distracted by adding this and adding that until so many things are planned that one starts to feel overwhelmed and nothing gets done.

Of course, it'll be up to Angus as to what he wants to happen, but I think having an all/most/half day LHish sort of event within an event would be WAY cool.

1. We are talking about hauling a lot of things a long ways out. It's more worth it to set up for 8 hours instead of 1 hour.

2. A tourney would be a part of an entire day of festival activities.

3. More people can achieve accurate 14th c. soft kit. Imagine what an impact the civilians/spectators could have!

4. Immersion can take longer than an hour or two. The more well-rounded the scenrio, the better the immersion experience.

5. You've captured the attention of LH types who know how to make this sort of thing happen. Hell, you've got Jeff J excited about going to Pennsic, which is something even I haven't been able to do. You don't know how big that is.

[Aaron]

Which day?

Some will be caught between their loyalties to king and country vs. the fun of being authentic.

[Murdock]

"1. We are talking about hauling a lot of things a long ways out. It's more worth it to set up for 8 hours instead of 1 hour."

Absolutely, in fact i think we should set up the day before as much as possible.

"2. A tourney would be a part of an entire day of festival activities."

Yes we need a band and other such things
Aaron mentioned Jugling,

Ummmmm of course they'll be a luch break.

"3. More people can achieve accurate 14th c. soft kit. Imagine what an impact the civilians/spectators could have!"

yup

"4. Immersion can take longer than an hour or two. The more well-rounded the scenrio, the better the immersion experience."

All day!!!

:5. You've captured the attention of LH types who know how to make this sort of thing happen. Hell, you've got Jeff J excited about going to Pennsic, which is something even I haven't been able to do. You don't know how big that is."

Cool, LH folks have all the cool toys.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Banning machine stitching is a bit much.

[Murdock]

"Some will be caught between their loyalties to king and country vs. the fun of being authentic. "

Well i don't want it to conflict and certianly the day of the woods battle is out.

Opening Cerimonies is out since it's the day of the 30. Perhaps the Saturday before war week?????

I dunno.

[Duane W]

1. We are talking about hauling a lot of things a long ways out. It's more worth it to set up for 8 hours instead of 1 hour.


Agreed - To much work for too little fun would not be a good thing.


2. A tourney would be a part of an entire day of festival activities.

Absolutely



3. More people can achieve accurate 14th c. soft kit. Imagine what an impact the civilians/spectators could have!

This would be great , my house is of the 14th century and we all have good quality soft kits. I am making a new armour for this event and designing it from the skin out.


4. Immersion can take longer than an hour or two. The more well-rounded the scenrio, the better the immersion experience.

See previous comment

5. You've captured the attention of LH types who know how to make this sort of thing happen. Hell, you've got Jeff J excited about going to Pennsic, which is something even I haven't been able to do. You don't know how big that is.

I think I have a clue on how big this is. I do a little bit of LH as well. (The last LH event I participated in I spent the whole day hammering out a chanfron for the crowd.) In additon to getting ready for this event I am participating as mounted calavary at Hastings in October. It is this very type of thing that has gotten me excited about working in my shop again and doing things better than I did before I got my Laurel in armouring. (Speciality - 14th c.)

I'm glad the living History folks are excitied . They may know how to do things in their own venue, but how many of them have delt with Pennsic bueracracy? I have on several occasions and it can be painful. My wife and I have a good working relationship with Dave Cooper. He (Dave) even approved something for me last year that I had to check the condition of snowballs in hell when he said yes go ahead and do it under certain restrictions. (Which were reasonable by-the-by) Then the Pennsic o' Crats shot my plans down and there was no way to appeal them.

I'm pretty sure that what is being proposed won't be treated in then manner that my proposal was. ( I being obtuse on purpose - nobody believes me when I tell them what Dave approved ) The good news is that what we're proposing is just another variation on what has been done before. The SCA is going to place it's restrictions on the event. (Read -safety rules - If we don't follow them I doubt that the PB and the Coopers will approve the use of the area.) Plan accordingly.

I still say go for it, but be careful not to over do it. When you plan an activity please keep in mind who is going to be responsible for set-up and running that portion of the event. We have to make sure that everyone contributes AND gets time to enjoy the event. That way when ( notice I did not say if) its time to do it again people will be more than happy to help out and become involved again.

Also, because of the amount of work involved I would like to suggest that we ask for a couple of days - one primary day and one "rain date". I believe the only restriction on this would be that the staging area was cleared out before the Woods Battle was scheduled to take place.


Take care,

Alexander

[Muriel]

Banning machine stitching is a bit much.

I don't care about internal stitching, heck, I do most of mine by machine - I just think visible stitching should either be by hand or at least not glaringly machine (invisible hem stitching on a machine, if well-done, is fine, IMO).

I was under the impression that most LH groups have this as a standard? Ah - besides, as I mentioned earlier, this is a particular love of mine. I realize that it is not everyone's AND I don't really expect it from anyone else. Ah, I was just dreaming. It WOULD be cool, though, to see more hand-quilted, hand done buttonholes etc.

[Charlotte J]

5. You've captured the attention of LH types who know how to make this sort of thing happen. Hell, you've got Jeff J excited about going to Pennsic, which is something even I haven't been able to do. You don't know how big that is.

I think I have a clue on how big this is. I do a little bit of LH as well.

I mean the part about getting Jeff excited about something that *I* can't get him excited about.

Agreed on the bureaucracy part.

[Aaron]

I can do basic acrobatics, recorder playing and juggling. It has been advised that stilt walking, singing, lute, fire breathing and historically correct flatulance humor might be added to the list of jester talents.

[Tailoress]

Banning machine stitching is a bit much.

I agree, but no-one is talking about banning machine stitching. We're talking about visible machine stitching. There is a difference. LH-level re-enactment generally does not allow visible machine stitching. If people want to talk the talk...

Some people are quietly thinking about their corrazinas and how they're going to have to start over because they're made of covered plastic (no doubt). So, why not get people thinking of having their next arming cotte or jupon either made in a style that requires minimal top stitching or made with hand-done quilting?

It's weird, the way the fabric end of things keeps getting slighted in favor of the importance of almighty metal. If you want to get it right, then get it right -- not just some of it. Maybe some of you want to hear the clang of metal, not plastic -- well, some others want to see the beauty of hand-quilted arming clothes in accompaniment. You are looking for an immersion experience -- are you not?

There's a YEAR to get this together. It's not asking too much in a year's time. Or, if it is, then I guess I'll just have to readjust my hopes for this undertaking.



-Tasha