A 14th century tourney

[Galleron]

Ok, so a coronel shape is wrong for this time period.

SyrRhys,

I'm not following how that spear head is constructed. Do you have any pictures or sketches of this design?

There are two pieces of rubber shaped like a spear head cut in half lengthwise. You tape them to the shaft of your weapon and voila! they look kind of like a spear head. You can see a picture of one I made here:
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/f ... upshot.jpg
being held by Sir Gaston (the one beside me with the crest on his helm).

Well, which is less wrong, 16th c. style foot combat spearheads or 21st c. style foot combat spearheads?

C'est la lance de la chevalier Gumbie.

[SyrRhys]

Well, which is less wrong, 16th c. style foot combat spearheads or 21st c. style foot combat spearheads?

C'est la lance de la chevalier Gumbie.

Oh? And there's no rubber in your pollaxe head, G? Cut it out. Both are wrong, but one's an attempt to look like the kind of spear head that would be used in foot combat of the 14th century and the other is incorrect both in materials and in form.

Hey, *you're* the one who said those lance heads weren't used until the 16th century. So, are you now saying that someone with a crudely-made (but accurately shaped) bascinet is worse than a high-quality 16th-century burgeonet for this 14th-century deed of arms? Nonsense. If someone had suggested that you'd have been the first to ridicule it.

And frankly, that spear isn't all that badly made, thank you very much, your snide comments notwithstanding.

[Murdock]

well their both wrong.


Which is more wrong?? Which looks worse?

I'm of 2 minds yall already hit on both.

I can make the spear with the Master jamie bits, it's closer in profile to the 14th century lines. The coronels are wrong but pretty, they are also more expensive.

Just out of cost i say go with the "winged spears" not the coronels. I have enough to spend already.

[BdeB]

I think you should all fight with Fish.

That would be awesome.

Yeah.

[Murdock]

we could throw tools....


if you can dodge a wrench......

[Charlotte J]

we could throw tools....


if you can dodge a wrench......

Or women.

If you can dodge a wench...

[Jehan de Pelham]

I've dodged a wench or tweye.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compagniye Store

[Ringlancer]

I think you should all fight with Fish.

That would be awesome.

Yeah.

You know the Marshal was given a big fish as a tourney prize, right?

[Ingvarr]

I've dodged a wench or tweye.

I can't remember ever actually trying to dodge one.

[Winterfell]

Remember the five D's:
Dodge, duck, dip, dive, flatsnap!

[Galleron]

Well, which is less wrong, 16th c. style foot combat spearheads or 21st c. style foot combat spearheads?

C'est la lance de la chevalier Gumbie.

Oh? And there's no rubber in your pollaxe head, G? Cut it out. Both are wrong, but one's an attempt to look like the kind of spear head that would be used in foot combat of the 14th century and the other is incorrect both in materials and in form.

Hey, *you're* the one who said those lance heads weren't used until the 16th century. So, are you now saying that someone with a crudely-made (but accurately shaped) bascinet is worse than a high-quality 16th-century burgeonet for this 14th-century deed of arms? Nonsense. If someone had suggested that you'd have been the first to ridicule it.

The analogy is inexact. They used coronels and rockets in the 14th c., but probably not on foot.

More pertinently, suppose you had to choose between someone wearing a 14th c. jousting helm in foot combat, or someone wearing a pig face bascinet. However, because of safety requirements the point of the pig snout was rounded off to to a 2" diameter hemisphere and the bascinet was grossly oversized because of the padding requirements. That's closer to the choices we're looking at for spearheads.

And frankly, that spear isn't all that badly made, thank you very much, your snide comments notwithstanding.

I'm not attacking the construction. I'm saying that because of the constraints that the head of a lance of war must meet in SCA combat, it's going to end up looking gumbyish, however well built.

I suspect, however, the result could be improved by using wings about half as big, and lightly beveling the edges.

None of the choices are entirely satsisfactory. Even following those suggestions, a SCA-legal spearhead shape is going to be significantly bulkier than a simple two handed Mandrake head, and both are going to be bulkier than a real head, either of war or peace. Increased bulk makes the spearplay less like the real thing.

The points of the the Historic Enterprises coronel are unlikely to get past an SCA marshal. I am messing with a design that has less extreme points. Because it's a cone with the large end forward, it's less bulky for the same minimum diameter than the standard cylindrical thrusting tip.

A lot depends on how your particular suspension of disbelief works. Your mileage may vary

[Murdock]

If you can dodge a wench...

Why would you do that?

Personaly i prefer catching them in pairs at least

[Murdock]

Tasha Muriel Char?

Yall come up with those preliminary official clothes standards?

[Muriel]

We've been e-mailing and lists are starting to be compiled. Look for something soon. Thanks for the follow-up, though.

[Iain (Bunny) Ruadh]

A tad late in the conversation, but count me in with a cart to haul what's needed to whichever we settle on. I'll try and lure some of me buds out of the 1425+ and in to play for at least a day.

[Galleron]

More on the encounter at Vannes, which might make a useful model for the combat at this deed of arms:

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... es_11.html

[SyrRhys]

More on the encounter at Vannes, which might make a useful model for the combat at this deed of arms:

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... es_11.html

I agree that this source would make an ideal model for this Armes.

Break the combatants into two teams--English and French--and have heralds make challenges between them (or does it seem they make their own?).

5 blows thrown with spear, axe, sword and/or dagger, the winner is the one who lands a blow to a vulnerable target (e.g., dagger to the face) or who lands the most "solid" blows. Draws are more likely than outright wins.

Spears can also be fought couched by running together, either three or five courses, starting 17 paces apart (as measured with a golden rope). The winner is the one who knocks down or pushes back the other.

Simple, elegant, historical.

[Murdock]

I LIKE IT!


Are we also going to allow open challenges?

[SyrRhys]

I LIKE IT!


Are we also going to allow open challenges?

From whom? Those who can will be on one of the two teams, right?

[Tailoress]

We've been e-mailing and lists are starting to be compiled. Look for something soon. Thanks for the follow-up, though.

Er... yeah, what she said. *slinking away to get busier*

-Tasha

[Cet]

I think the teams should be German and Italian not English and French.

[Galleron]

More on the encounter at Vannes, which might make a useful model for the combat at this deed of arms:

5 blows thrown with spear, axe, sword and/or dagger, the winner is the one who lands a blow to a vulnerable target (e.g., dagger to the face) or who lands the most "solid" blows. Draws are more likely than outright wins.

Spears can also be fought couched by running together, either three or five courses, starting 17 paces apart (as measured with a golden rope). The winner is the one who knocks down or pushes back the other.

I'd leave win or lose even fuzzier, as it seems to have been at Vannes.

You *must* stop fighting if:

You have been hit with a thrust to a vulnerable point, such as the armpit or the inside of the elbow.

You have been hit by three good edge blows to the head, arms or hands.

You have been knocked down twice.

You have completed the full number of strokes specified.

You *may* stop fighting if your opponent must stop for one of the above condition.

Being wounded hurts. If you cannot continue because of a thrust or series of edge blows, you are required to contribute to the refreshment fund.

[SyrRhys]

I'd leave win or lose even fuzzier, as it seems to have been at Vannes.

You *must* stop fighting if:

You have been hit with a thrust to a vulnerable point, such as the armpit or the inside of the elbow.

You have been hit by three good edge blows to the head, arms or hands.

You have been knocked down twice.

You have completed the full number of strokes specified.

You *may* stop fighting if your opponent must stop for one of the above condition.

Being wounded hurts. If you cannot continue because of a thrust aor series of edge blows, you are required to contribute to the refreshment fund.

I can live happily with that. I would go farther and require longswords to be used like a SCAdian, with no halfswording allowed.

But where was the refreshment fund mentioned in either Vannes source?

Speaking fo that, my reading of this has nothing whatsoever of the ransom about it. Is that you're take, too?

[SyrRhys]

I think the teams should be German and Italian not English and French.

Why?

[SyrRhys]

You *must* stop fighting if:
You have been knocked down twice.

Second Thoughts: Why twice? It seems that when the wimpier opponents were knocked down at Vannes they were pulled forthwith and a more heroic opponent brought in. In fact, you could add that as a rule: If you're knocked down your side pulls you out and sends in a replacement so your opponent can finish his engagement.

[Cet]

Why?

Because we've already got a English v French fight but more because of the high number of klapp visored helmets which make most SCA kits look more German/N Italian than English/French.

We could ahve each side choose a different Pope, that be cool too

[Galleron]

You *must* stop fighting if:
You have been knocked down twice.

Second Thoughts: Why twice? It seems that when the wimpier opponents were knocked down at Vannes they were pulled forthwith and a more heroic opponent brought in. In fact, you could add that as a rule: If you're knocked down your side pulls you out and sends in a replacement so your opponent can finish his engagement.

Because both accounts agree that Beauchamp was only withdrawn after the second knockdown.

[Galleron]

I'd leave win or lose even fuzzier, as it seems to have been at Vannes.

You *must* stop fighting if:

You have been hit with a thrust to a vulnerable point, such as the armpit or the inside of the elbow.

You have been hit by three good edge blows to the head, arms or hands.

You have been knocked down twice.

You have completed the full number of strokes specified.

You *may* stop fighting if your opponent must stop for one of the above condition.

Being wounded hurts. If you cannot continue because of a thrust aor series of edge blows, you are required to contribute to the refreshment fund.

I can live happily with that. I would go farther and require longswords to be used like a SCAdian, with no halfswording allowed.

Why? Cabaret strongly implies thrusting with swords happened: One of the English had his shoulder pierced with a sword in his version.

But where was the refreshment fund mentioned in either Vannes source?

Froissart: "The three knights who were to perform their deeds of arms set out from château Josselin, attended by the others, and came to Vannes, where they were lodged in the suburbs, and the English entertained them well. "

Speaking fo that, my reading of this has nothing whatsoever of the ransom about it. Is that you're take, too?

It is

[SyrRhys]

Why? Cabaret strongly implies thrusting with swords happened: One of the English had his shoulder pierced with a sword in his version.

I didn't say no thrusting, I said no halfswording. We know that at least one fight involved edge blows, and, as you say, there's evidence for thrusting, but I read nothing that suggests halfswording.

[James B.]

I have to say the suggested rules for the tournement sound really cool.

[SyrRhys]

You have been hit by three good edge blows to the head, arms or hands.

One small quibble here: We can't aim for hands (it being a SCAdian rule).

[Mord]

"We could ahve each side choose a different Pope, that be cool too."

Can I be one of the Popes? I promise to bring my own relics and not ex-communicate anyone for a nomial service fee...

Pox Vobiscum.

Mord.

[Murdock]

"From whom? Those who can will be on one of the two teams, right? "

Yeah. I didn't relly think anyone esle would show up.

BUT that begs a question What if people wanna come play that day but can't make the formal emprise due to Royal duties, having to do their turn attending someone or whatever.

Yall wanna hold the field open afterward to anyone who can't make it "on time" but otherwise meets the requirements?

[Jehan de Pelham]

I propose that there be flexibility in this regard. If someone clearly meets the intent of the gathering and comes later, then why not do what seems pleasing and proper?

I have been largely sitting back and enjoying the discussion as it has proceeded between Master Galleron and Count Rhys, agreeing.

I'm ambivalent on half swording. I haven't done much with it, myself.

I agree on two knockdowns. Once is a fluke. Twice is a trend.

I don't necessarily think nationalities for teams is needed. Creates a restriction or a conceit where none is needed. Let there be two Captains, and let them recruit as they may.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Comagniye Store

[Gilebert]

Let there be two Captains, and let them recruit as they may.

Well, perhaps one of the Captains should be Sir Angus... for starting this whole thread...

And perhaps Murdock as the other Captain.... he has the fire and zeal...

Just thoughts...

Gilebert