A 14th century tourney

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:30 am

ME?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

errr ummm

uhhhhh

Sir Crispin · Post by **Sir Crispin** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:22 am

Murdock just got hit with a wrench
:lol:

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:28 am

i'd have prefered a wench

still kinda "you mean me?"

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:33 am

Gilebert wrote:
Jehan de Pelham wrote:Let there be two Captains, and let them recruit as they may.

Well, perhaps one of the Captains should be Sir Angus... for starting this whole thread...

And perhaps Murdock as the other Captain.... he has the fire and zeal...

I agree wholeheartedly about Angus, but no offense to Murdock--whom I hold in great esteem--the other captain should be a dubbed knight. I nominate Sir Vitus. In his absence perhaps Sir Felix or Sir Phillip or Sir Nigel.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:40 am

Yeah thats kinda why i was going "who me?" lot of better people for the job imo.

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:12 pm

Jehan de Pelham wrote:I don't necessarily think nationalities for teams is needed. Creates a restriction or a conceit where none is needed. Let there be two Captains, and let them recruit as they may.

I like having two nationalities invloved because doing so more accurately reflects what actually happened at Vannes. That doesn't mean both sides have to be all English or all French--I don't remember if this happened at Vannes off the top of my head, but the English had at least one German with them at St. Inglevert--but the sides should be broken down along nationalistic lines just as they were at the real thing. The "restriction or conceit" is needed only to more closely ape what we're copying; let us err, if err we must, on the side of historical accuracy for once.

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:34 pm

I agree wholeheartedly about Angus, but no offense to Murdock--whom I hold in great esteem--the other captain should be a dubbed knight. I nominate Sir Vitus. In his absence perhaps Sir Felix or Sir Phillip or Sir Nigel.

Given that the we've discussed barring SCA regalia that does not conform to historic models as well as requiring portrayle to be limited to what folks can represent with both soft and hard kit I disagree. To be consistent the Captaincies should require the most complte and accurate kit regardless of SCA rank. A knight with OK kit should not trump anyone whos kit is superior.

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:27 pm

Cet wrote:Given that the we've discussed barring SCA regalia that does not conform to historic models as well as requiring portrayle to be limited to what folks can represent with both soft and hard kit I disagree. To be consistent the Captaincies should require the most complte and accurate kit regardless of SCA rank. A knight with OK kit should not trump anyone whos kit is superior.

I certainly agree with your point, but I still think it should be possible to find a knight with a kit of superior worth; Sir Nigel and Sir Phillip both have extraordinary kits, if I recall correctly. I'd rather have a noble and worthy gentleman with an excellent kit such as Murdock over a knight who doesn't look the part, but given the chance I'd rather have someone who has both qualifications.

Gilebert · Post by **Gilebert** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:57 pm

Murdock wrote:Yeah thats kinda why i was going "who me?" lot of better people for the job imo.

I do not argue at all with the ideal of a dubbed knight being a captain.

Yes.. there are other people. But who else, besides Sirs Vitus, Nigel, Phillipe and Felix (and I am sure others - just out of my scope) has shown the fire and knowledge of 14th C. of late?

It was a suggestion. (Glad it shocked Murdock, too)

IF I can get my kit into order (needs a good deal of work = dollars), I will be most honored by whoever is Captain to participate.

Gilebert

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:01 pm

I dont have a dog in the fight, but I am pretty sure Sir Rhys has a nice suit, and I have heard he knows something about the 14th century.

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:23 pm

Nissan Maxima wrote:I dont have a dog in the fight, but I am pretty sure Sir Rhys has a nice suit, and I have heard he knows something about the 14th century.

Thanks bud, but this should be for someone else--I've done this a couple of times already. Hell, half the guys on here have never even heard of me anyway.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:46 pm

"Glad it shocked Murdock, too"

i mean i apreciated it and all but i'd pick one of the other 3 guys far before me.

V has the high speach down, i dunno what his rig looks like right now, but it's always been good. Nigel and Phillipe have got it, unless there's something i don't know about their rigs. Rhys was doing the 14c Mafia thing before anyone else. Cet and Galleron are laurels in addition to having the stuff.

As they say at the Oscars "it was just nice to be nominated"

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:52 pm

Murdock wrote:Rhys was doing the 14c Mafia thing before anyone else.

Not before Galleron. I was *thinking* of doing the "right thing" when Galleron was already doing it; he was part of a small group that set up the first King Rene-style tournament in the East. I went to that and was *hooked*.

And I hope you understand I'm not knocking you, Murdock!

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:25 pm

It will largely depend on where the final kit standards are set. There are few folks I've run into who have close to the level of kits that G' has and Murdock is one of them- he's got mail! We really will have to wait and see what Angus thinks as I still consider this his baby. Personally I'd like to see hard kit of a very high standard as has already been partially outlined earlier in the thread, particullarly no modern stuff hidden under jupons not matter how nice the jupon may be.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:47 pm

If we hold with the standard that the armor must virtually be armor--ie: that whatever is under the cloth must be a faithful replication of the material substance of armor as we understand it to have been--then I think that's a laudable high path to take, and one which no-one could say is a compromise. Of course we can talk about material technologies and composition, sighing in an understanding fashion at stainless, or even frowning but allowing something like welded titanium maille, but the look and the substance is important.

The fully replicated harness is not insanely difficult to do. I have yet to make the jump to riveted mail, but will do so soon.

Count Rhys: "I like having two nationalities invloved because doing so more accurately reflects what actually happened at Vannes. That doesn't mean both sides have to be all English or all French--I don't remember if this happened at Vannes off the top of my head, but the English had at least one German with them at St. Inglevert--but the sides should be broken down along nationalistic lines just as they were at the real thing. The "restriction or conceit" is needed only to more closely ape what we're copying; let us err, if err we must, on the side of historical accuracy for once."

As you say. I am merely showing my willingness to compromise should this be a stumbling block.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org
Proprietor, The Compagniye Store

SirAngus · Post by **SirAngus** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:46 pm

Hey guys, I just got back a few days ago from my jousting trip. You guys have to try this thing! Get a horse and a long stick and it will take you around the world!

Gimme a day or two to actually try and read all... what.... 15 pages?

If there are any direct questions, feel free to e-mail me.

I saw something about captains... I hope my kit to be better than it currently is by next pennsic, but I do have a question for everyone... My globose faced bascinet is side hinged and the double wide occularum has perforated steel in it because I also use that helmet for steel fighting and jousting... Would that helmet pass muster? The camail is rivetted.... I'm just curious...

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:00 pm

"There are few folks I've run into who have close to the level of kits that G' has and Murdock is one of them- he's got mail! "

No bias is there Cet, considering you made most of it.

hehehehe

It is very nice, i'm glad i have talented friends.

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:53 am

SirAngus wrote:Gimme a day or two to actually try and read all... what.... 15 pages?

Welcome back Angus. Is your head spinning yet? (I'm assuming that by the time you read this message, you'll have read all those other 15 or so pages.... :lol:

)

-Tasha

Muriel · Post by **Muriel** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:56 am

SyrRhys wrote:
Murdock wrote:Rhys was doing the 14c Mafia thing before anyone else.

Not before Galleron. I was *thinking* of doing the "right thing" when Galleron was already doing it; he was part of a small group that set up the first King Rene-style tournament in the East. I went to that and was *hooked*.

And I hope you understand I'm not knocking you, Murdock!

AND of course . . . he (Rhys) dragged several of us (in the East) along with him. I blame my obsession with the 14th c ENTIRELY on Rhys!!

xoxoxo (miss ya, honey!)

Muriel · Post by **Muriel** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:58 am

SyrRhys wrote:
Murdock wrote:Rhys was doing the 14c Mafia thing before anyone else.

Not before Galleron. I was *thinking* of doing the "right thing" when Galleron was already doing it; he was part of a small group that set up the first King Rene-style tournament in the East. I went to that and was *hooked*.

And I hope you understand I'm not knocking you, Murdock!

AND of course . . . he (Rhys) dragged several of us (in the East) along with him. I blame my obsession with the 14th c ENTIRELY on Rhys!!

xoxoxo (miss ya, honey!)

Iain (Bunny) Ruadh · Post by **Iain (Bunny) Ruadh** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:32 pm

Cet wrote:
I agree wholeheartedly about Angus, but no offense to Murdock--whom I hold in great esteem--the other captain should be a dubbed knight. I nominate Sir Vitus. In his absence perhaps Sir Felix or Sir Phillip or Sir Nigel.

Given that the we've discussed barring SCA regalia that does not conform to historic models as well as requiring portrayle to be limited to what folks can represent with both soft and hard kit I disagree. To be consistent the Captaincies should require the most complte and accurate kit regardless of SCA rank. A knight with OK kit should not trump anyone whos kit is superior.

I fully agree on this. Although some might argue we are holding this at an 'SCA' event, Pennsic has spun so far out of SCA control it's not funny. This event should have two captains that inspire and motivate their teams on such a day. Rank in one organization or another should have little bearing upon the person. Their status amongst those who love this era should ...

Iain (Bunny) Ruadh · Post by **Iain (Bunny) Ruadh** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:39 pm

Then again ... it can always be a whomever can bring the largest number of 'proper' men to the field, with those with lesser number giving sway and alliegence to those whom they deem worthy. I know already whom I and the five I can summon would fight under the banner of.

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:19 pm

I had some time to scan over various account sov Vannes this weekend and it strikes me that there were no Captains- just partisans of one side or the other who came together to fullfill various vowes, am I misreadign this?.

Jeff J · Post by **Jeff J** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:54 pm

Da-Bump!

SirAngus · Post by **SirAngus** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:14 pm

Phew! Thats a whole lot of thread to get through! I have to admit that my eyes glazed over a few times when it came to hand vs. machine stitching...

Not that this is my party, but I figured I'd go over the intent I had for this. Doesnt mean thats how it will go, but what I was thinking when I started this.

It is for the participants to get lost in the moment. This is something I think is rare at pennsic because of all of the periods and glaring modern items. It is to inspire others to get to a level where thye can live as a 14th century person even if only for a few hours.

I'd say no to general photo taking. Perhaps one person may dicreetly take pictures that would be available afterwards.

Women are ok by me for fighting. Dress like a man and fight. Pretty easy!

I'd love to have this the sat before actual pennsic but I cant get the Mayor to return an e-mail yet. Anyone have a better idea as to how to get this greenlighted by "da man"?

Weapons will be sca rattan but we may be able to come up with a few conventions that would help us with that.

Soft kit.... I'd like a 5' rule for this. If it looks period from 5', then it's good enough for me. If you have all handstiched stuff from period materials, then you'll just be the coolest kid at the party!

Hard kit- I'd like to be a little more stringent on this. Ferrus metals good

A full day sounds like a great idea! I'd be happy to do it all day. Hell, I bet we could even organise a feast if we had some willing kitchen people... Would it be possible to cook it at the site using period methods?

Possibly lunch could be provided, potluck style. If you want to eat, bring something. Period recipies only and in period containers

So, lets keep this going. Perhaps breaking it down into individual catagories..... Would it be possible to get our own forum?

If we can nail down major items like the whens and can we do it, then lets do what we can to get something into TI. It would be cool if we can get something into kingdom newsletters too. I'd also like to herald this at events in different kingdoms.. 12th night would be a cool place to start

SirAngus · Post by **SirAngus** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:21 pm

Hello? Anyone? Bueller?

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:56 pm

" Soft kit.... I'd like a 5' rule for this. If it looks period from 5', then it's good enough for me. "

Thats kinda vague.
Some people think that fur and mail undies look period. I think i get what your saying but i do believe it would need re wording for an official statement.

like " clothing should be based off of 14th century styles and appear correct from 5 feet"

I think that we need clarity.

What did Tasha, Muriel and Charlotte come up with in the end?

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:10 pm

I agree that a more detailed set of guidlines than a distance rule would be more usefull in achieving the sort of presentation that this had gravitated toward. The problem with distance rules is that what gets noticed depends on the person looking.

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:21 am

Muriel's got a very basic women's clothing guideline mostly worked up. I've got a demanding day job these days and have been having trouble finding time for this, but I'm still onboard to help with male civilian clothing/appearance.

I'm glad to see Angus back and moving this forward with enthusiasm.

-Tasha

SirAngus · Post by **SirAngus** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:49 am

Good to still see enthusiasm!

I guess we can limit the types of materials used and definatly the styles worn, but I wouldnt go as far as to say only hand stitching.... That would be like saying no power tools may have been used on armour....

I'm also not against stainless. A brush finish on a stainless suit looks like most mild steel and I have seen mild at such a high polish that it looks like stainless. I say we use a magnet. If it sticks... It's ok to use

Muriel · Post by **Muriel** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:02 am

SirAngus wrote:Good to still see enthusiasm!

I guess we can limit the types of materials used and definatly the styles worn, but I wouldnt go as far as to say only hand stitching.... That would be like saying no power tools may have been used on armour....

Just to clarify - I think a LOT of folks have misunderstood the 'hand-stitching' discussion. We were not insisting that items be hand-sewn - we were thinking that hand-finishing (hems, topstitching) be the bar. Using a sewing machine for internal construction is perfectly OK - and it was agreed that non-obvious machine finishing would be OK as well (blind-stitch for hems etc).

Should have a list for women's kit soon.

SirAngus · Post by **SirAngus** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:42 am

So then, garments made by places like historic enterprises and Revival clothing would be perfectly acceptible if we accept those standards, correct?

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:03 am

Are Revivals cloths hand finished?

Muriel · Post by **Muriel** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:03 am

Neither Revival nor HE clothes are hand-finished. BUT - I believe the machine finishing is 'invisible'. The only concern would be fit and silhouette. These garments might be, IMO, perfectly fine for lower class portrayals - but the brocades offered for the 'upper class' have a tendency to be too stiff and have an incorrect drape.

I would expect upper class ladies to be in a silk or very fine wool overgown (and not silk noil/raw silk - this is an inappropriate fabric in general).

Just my 2 cents.

We're (Tasha, Charlotte and I) just finishing up our thoughts on ladies soft kit - we will publish here . . . soon.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:53 am

I think the short answer on HE and revival is

"Yes, their machine stitches are not visible"