A 14th century tourney

Muriel · Post by **Muriel** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:37 pm

Murdock wrote:I think the short answer on HE and revival is

"Yes, their machine stitches are not visible"

Yes - that would be the short answer.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:51 pm

I'm kinda dumb...

it gives me a gift for brevity

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:20 am

Murdock wrote:I think the short answer on HE and revival is

"Yes, their machine stitches are not visible"

I believe they use a blind hem stitch on all of their edges. *I* can tell it's done by a machine, but most cannot and I consider it acceptable. The eyelet holes are all machine stitched, which is very noticable. I would recommend (though consensus is to not require) that it be stitched over by hand. That would go *really* fast if you didn't have to poke the holes.

HE also uses little wooden beads instead of buttons on their gowns (IIRC), and those should really be replaced.

Like Muriel said, the fit and sillhouette make off-the-rack women's clothing lower to maybe lower merchant class.

SirAngus · Post by **SirAngus** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:50 pm

Then maybe one of the things we should do besides just showing what is acceptable to wear but also giving as much info on how to get really good stuff as we can. Dont care if it's a specific seamstress or where to get good fabric.... This can really help be launching pad for other events such as this.

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:25 am

Just to be clear, I think the consensus was also to allow machine quilting/topstitching in relation to martial garments, as these are more likely to already have a lot of that, and/or need a lot of quilting/topstitching. This falls under the category of "combatant wear", not woman's wear, but I thought it should be mentioned here, since the method of stitching came up again.

-Tasha

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:47 am

"HE also uses little wooden beads instead of buttons on their gowns (IIRC), and those should really be replaced"

Depends on the garment. We've got and have seen both.

Maybe Klaus could come up with the arming clothes standard????

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:30 am

Murdock wrote:Depends on the garment. We've got and have seen both.

Spiff! What, when, and where? I used them on my first dress because I was too lazy to make cloth ones, and too poor to buy pewter ones. If I had something that was actually documentable to 14th c. women's clothing I'd be amused.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:13 am

Jusst of the top o my head, my red Dubois doublet has the lil bead things, but my coathadies have buttons.

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:43 pm

Murdock wrote:Jusst of the top o my head, my red Dubois doublet has the lil bead things, but my coathadies have buttons.

Oh, I thought you meant historical examples. Never mind!

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:05 pm

"We've got and have seen both."

But you asked about HE's buttons????

and where would i get medieval cloting artifacts?

I be poor.

Umm i think there are some examples in "Woven into the earth" and "Medieval Tailors Assistant". BUt i can't find anything in the office.... their in a box somewhere. Kate might know

Gilebert · Post by **Gilebert** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:17 pm

Bump.

Anything new on this subject?

SirAngus · Post by **SirAngus** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:40 am

Nothing new.. Still waiting to hear from the Mayor of pennsic to see if we can even do it there. If anyone has a better way to reach them other than the mayor e-mail, please send it along to me....

Thanks!

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:28 pm

Do we know anyone local to his area that could call him on the phone?

Or at least get the #??

Guenievre · Post by **Guenievre** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:24 pm

According to the website, it's she - Mistress Rosamund Beauvisage. Her email on the Midrealm Laurels website is rosamund99 at hotmail dot com - one of her apprentices is semi-local to me, if that doesn't work.

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:54 pm

I have spent some exhausting time reading through this thread - lots of good stuff in here!!!

I do have a few questions, however.

Silk is mentioned as a noble's fabric for kit purpose....and "raw" silk is out. Well...there are dozens of other types of silk...which would be correct/appropriate for this? In another thread where I was seeking this sort of information, Habotai was mentioned as being the best silk for the correct appearance, ulness, of course, you wanted to get certain Italian silks from Italy. So, what would qualify?

Has their been a final decision on hand stitching? Button holes, etc.... What of machine ebroidery or brocades?

What are the parameters for the "lance"? Would making an 8 foot spear to SCA regs be appropriate?

These questions from someone who does everything himself (yes, the sewing, the armour, the weapons....everything.)

Muriel · Post by **Muriel** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:23 am

Wulfe wrote:I do have a few questions, however.

Has their been a final decision on hand stitching? Button holes, etc.... What of machine ebroidery or brocades?

We (Charlotte, Tasha and I) are addressing types of silks and wools in a standards doc on which we are working (sorry for the delays - we are working on it). For example, raw silk/silk noil/silk dupioni are OUT. Wool worsted/twills/satins/suitings are IN. Silk twills (certain weights) are OK. You don't have to go with Italian silk brocades. You can actually get some nice @ 22 inch wide silk brocades that were originally meant for ties (tie silks). You just need to be very careful of the patterns.

WRT hand-stitching. I believe the consensus is that non-visible machine stitching is OK. Machined blind hem stitch is OK. Eyelets and Buttonholes are OK by machine. Machined quilting for cloth armour is OK.

It will be stated that although these are all OK - it is recommended/suggested/preferred (unsure of the right word) that all of these things by done by hand.

Does this help a little??

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:12 am

This is all excellent and I thank the exemplars for reining in the desire to go all out--this event can show some of us how to proceed and what it looks like.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

SirAngus · Post by **SirAngus** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:36 pm

How about linens?

So the silk suits from Revival would not work but the linen ones might?

I'd still like it if someone was interested, they could just buy a 14th century outfit and be able to come...

I'd always envisioned this as mostly a 5 foot rule more than uber period... Uber period is cool but I think we need to take smaller steps. Later on we can make people have only period materials and proper turn shoes...

Does anyone have good period resources for foot tournaments from this period - 1390?

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:40 pm

SirAngus wrote:Does anyone have good period resources for foot tournaments from this period - 1390?

Absolutely!! Read Steve Muhlberger's *excellent* [u]Deeds of Arms[\u] from Chivalry Bookshelf. Or go directly to the primary source material at Steve's web site:
http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/his ... eedsch.htm

In particular, I believe that this specific deed of arms is a superb model:
http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/his ... annes1.htm
(This is what I used for my reccomendations above--before we got lost in the important cloth bits.)

This specific deed has *everything*: It's the right time, the right region, it is a friendly deed so we can avoid a lot of things that are against the SCAs silly rules, etc. It's perfect.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:57 pm

Sir Henri from Redshield 1391 probably is also an excellent resource in this regard.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:17 pm

WRT to martial clothing standards --

Are we considering this a skin-out attempt? In other words, are all combatants planning to wear braies and hosen and proper turnshoes under their sabatons, that sort of thing? Will they point their armour to their arming doublet/cotte/garment in a historically viable manner, and for that matter, will the arming cotte need to be vetted at all, if it doesn't show at all from the outside? If it *does* require vetting (so that the combattant may stand around in it, half-armed), how specific do we want to get on suggestions for styles? I have my own opinions about the ideal look and cut of the soft martial kit, but I don't want to impose my narrow and exceedingly picky opinion on everyone else (at least not ALL the time!

)

I'd like some of the prospective combatants to weigh in on this, if they would. What are folks's opinions on this?

-Tasha

SirAngus · Post by **SirAngus** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:29 pm

I dont even know what vetting is.....

I hadnt planned this as a skin out thing... If you want to wear boxer briefs under your breas go right ahead. If you need that neoprene kneebrace under your chausses then go for it...

I just wanted the exterior to look good from top to bottom...

Funny thing is.. with all of the clothing rules flying about, as it looks right now, I wouldnt even be able to attend

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:49 pm

"I'd always envisioned this as mostly a 5 foot rule "

The problem with that terminology(be it 10 or 5) is that it is subjective to what that individual thinks looks period. Some people _really_ think that a polyester T tunic with a belt and a tripe hood and revival low boots with sweats looks 14th century.

I agree with ya that the Revival/ HE linen wool "outfit in a box" kits should be fine. They have pleanty of time.

"Funny thing is.. with all of the clothing rules flying about, as it looks right now, I wouldnt even be able to attend"

I think we need to read the final and then line item it and see what is ok.

Assuming you are in what i saw ya in at the 30 your real close.

Right this second... i think i can but i'd have to check on a few things. NOt 100% sure.

Still we have (almost) a year to pull it off.

But most of the people who will go are close to or above the bar we're talking right now.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:10 am

"Are we considering this a skin-out attempt? In other words, are all combatants planning to wear braies and hosen and proper turnshoes under their sabatons, that sort of thing? Will they point their armour to their arming doublet/cotte/garment in a historically viable manner, and for that matter, will the arming cotte need to be vetted at all, if it doesn't show at all from the outside? If it *does* require vetting (so that the combattant may stand around in it, half-armed), how specific do we want to get on suggestions for styles? I have my own opinions about the ideal look and cut of the soft martial kit, but I don't want to impose my narrow and exceedingly picky opinion on everyone else (at least not ALL the time! Surprised)

I'd like some of the prospective combatants to weigh in on this, if they would. What are folks's opinions on this?"

Here is what I intend, Tasha: I do intend a skin out portrayal. I would like for others to do the same. I think you'll have no problems with what I bring to the table. I think it's important to have the ability to disarm and still meet the ideals of immersion that have been expressed.

Here's something to consider. I will be coming to Pennsic solely for certain high fidelity events. I have said before and I don't mind saying again that in my opinion, Pennsic is something that in the main doesn't intrigue me, because of the fact that it's become so diverse. The reason I have declared for Pennsic is because of the possibility that I'll be able to participate in some groundbreaking efforts in high fidelity portrayal, and because I want my batteries charged by being shown something extraordinary.

Sir Angus, you've tapped into a groundswell of appreciation for this sentiment as it's held by those in the eastern United States--and even farther away among those who attend Pennsic. You're riding the tiger now, better stay on: buck up and get your kit in order. :lol:

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:11 pm

"I'd like some of the prospective combatants to weigh in on this, if they would. What are folks's opinions on this?" "

I'm going for skin out too.

I'm even going to try and find a medieval alternative to the cup. Enclose the greaves , add in rebraces, rivited mail, sabatons, finger guants.

As the stadards have been preposed, i should pass as it is right now. I'm not 100% happy with what i'm wearing noe, but it should be spot on by pennsic.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:16 am

I am with Sir Angus on the "skin out" thing. If you want to wear modern underwear under braies (and jock) or a knee brace under your hose I don't see an issue, but I want to see braies and hose not draw string pants like 99% of the SCA wears

Adrielle Kerrec · Post by **Adrielle Kerrec** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:28 am

[quote="Murdock"]"I'd like some of the prospective combatants to weigh in on this, if they would. What are folks's opinions on this?" "

If Nigel participates, as I expect he'd like to. He'd likely be in favour of the skin out approach as that is what he already does for the most part.

SirAngus · Post by **SirAngus** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:30 am

I'd still want to wear clamshell gauntlets too.. I have a beautiful pair of finger gauntlets but have had fingers smashed too many time while wearing them to feel really safe in them... If I could get some of the fo-finger clamshell gauntlets I would but it just doesnt look like it will be in the budget...

Jeff J · Post by **Jeff J** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:14 am

SirAngus wrote:I dont even know what vetting is.....

It's a process where a designated person or group looks over your stuff and determines if it meets the standards. Usually, if there is something that doesn't meet the standards, the presenter is allowed the opportunity to present documentation for his exceptional item(s).

Generally, vetting is done in advance of the event, so that people have time to make appropriate alterations.

Jeff J · Post by **Jeff J** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:15 am

James B. wrote:I am with Sir Angus on the "skin out" thing. If you want to wear modern underwear under braies (and jock) or a knee brace under your hose I don't see an issue,

They'll just be mocked for having VPL. :wink:

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:02 pm

What is VPL??

" I am with Sir Angus on the "skin out" thing. If you want to wear modern underwear under braies (and jock) or a knee brace under your hose I don't see an issue, but I want to see braies and hose not draw string pants like 99% of the SCA wears Very Happy "

I can accept that, i know i'm trying to find a period alternative that works and is safe for my cup and cycle shorts, but i'm not sure i can.

I also need a knee brace foe my left knee. I'll deal if it's disallowed, i just can't fight quite as comfortably for as long.

I can also deal with clamshells for a purely safety reason. I'll have fingers by then but they'll be more or less Valrius guantlets so they'll be nigh indestructable.

Gilebert · Post by **Gilebert** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:47 pm

Murdock wrote:What is VPL??

Visible Panty Lines

" I am with Sir Angus on the "skin out" thing. If you want to wear modern underwear under braies (and jock) or a knee brace under your hose I don't see an issue, but I want to see braies and hose not draw string pants like 99% of the SCA wears Very Happy "

I can accept that, i know i'm trying to find a period alternative that works and is safe for my cup and cycle shorts, but i'm not sure i can.

I also need a knee brace foe my left knee. I'll deal if it's disallowed, i just can't fight quite as comfortably for as long.

Same here ... only right knee...

I can also deal with clamshells for a purely safety reason. I'll have fingers by then but they'll be more or less Valrius guantlets so they'll be nigh indestructable.

I will have to use my clamshells... there is no way I can get a set of finger guantlets by then... even with it being 'almost a year away'

I will be attempting to get as close to skin-out as I can.

I am going to see if I can make myself a klapvisor and modify my current helm to allow switching between klap and grille... Any hints on this from the armorers?

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:29 pm

Clay's are what $350 ish

You have like 10 and a half months.

Even i could come up with $350 in at least 6 months.

I think he also sells kits that are cheaper.

But ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

I think that for the fighters all visible soft kit should look right, IE we should see brasie and hosen from behind.

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:22 pm

Gilebert wrote:I am going to see if I can make myself a klapvisor and modify my current helm to allow switching between klap and grille... Any hints on this from the armorers?

There is a type of klap hinge that allows for removable faceplates.

I think there is one in TOMAR and I think Brian Price's site sells them, but dont quote me, it has been a while since I have been there looking...

Guy Dawkins · Post by **Guy Dawkins** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:37 pm

I just replaced my hinge with one from Brian. To be able to swap between face plates you will need two hinges. They're about $25 each plus shipping.

They need to be cleaned up and you supply your own rivits.