Combat Jousting in North America

For those of us who wish to talk about the many styles and facets of recreating Medieval armed combat.
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Jonny Deuteronomy
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Combat Jousting in North America

Post by Jonny Deuteronomy »

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Dear Medieval Martial Arts Community;

I am interested in resurrecting the ashes (or the spirit, if you will) of
the World Championship Jousting Association, the recently deceased
tournament group that brought heavy jousters together from all over the
world in Ontario, CA to duke it out in honorable combat with mount and lance
and bolt-on armour augmentations.

Ideally, these new tournaments will be of a somewhat more accurate
historical presentation than was interpreted by the several Dragon's Lair
World Championship Jousting Tournaments, yet still preserve the simple yet
powerful spirit of fun and excitement as portrayed in the movie "A Knight's
Tale" and at past Dragon's Lairs.

Scoring will be period, as per the 1520's Field of the Cloth of Gold Tournament, as on page 192 of Barber/Barker
'Tournaments' and page 54 (and 55!) of Osprey Elite #17 'Knights at
Tournament'.

Arguably, jousts and tilts reached their nadir, zenith or high-water-mark in
popularity in England under the feisty HRM Henry VIII, who regularly and
zealously took part in both mounted and ground combats. This time period also allows us many armor safety advancements.

For the advanced readers, for the look and feel of what I have in mind,
please inspect the plates on pps 170-171, 174-175 and 178-179 of
Barber/Barker 'Tournaments', and plates H,I,J,K in Osprey Elite #17 'Knights
at Tournament'.

Stainless Steel Expressly Allowed. Mild steel gets easily destroyed, so
leave it at home or on the show-and-tell tables. Or if you insist, you can
sign a waiver.

My vision also includes a simultaneous ground-fighting tournament, fought
cap-a-pie with live steel, where the rounds alternate between mounted and
unmounted rounds of combat in the main arena, and pick-ups and unscheduled
matches and other sideshow stuff in sideline lists and areas.

Yes this is like what Jeremy O'Neill and Fred Piraux produce already, no
reason to reinvent the wheel. With rebated steel or aluminum, I am happy to
allow no-holds-barred, with full grappling and submissions. I am happy to
allow to-first-blood also. I asked Jeremy ONeill if he wanted to run this
segment and he grinningly declined and said he would much rather fight in it
than administrate it. I totally understand that!!! :twisted:

System-wise, I would have a regional tournament for points every ninety days
and one grand event once a year for all participants, to decide an annual
Grand Champion. This is not unlike what we see in the PBR or the UFC, both
of which are groundbreaking sports that have paved the way for this sport to
be brought to the mainstream audience it so richly deserves. Anyone
'Murrican who watches PBR on OLN or UFC on Spike or X-gamez on ESPN2 or The
Contender on ESPN knows the basic idea that I'm on about here. If it looks
like a trend then well duh :oops: - I guess this may be an idea who's time
is nigh? Especially with A Knight's Tale II rumoured to be in production.
Money can't buy better marketing than that. :idea:

With 3 regions, if we stagger the regionals, that becomes a tourney a month,
with one central all-hands event then one month off per year. Not at all
impossible from a production company standpoint. This would also generate
enough content for a regular television show based around these combat
sports. With a reality TV show to for fun like the UFC. If Roy Cox will
agree to star in it, it would be like a collision between The Real World,
Survivor, Surviving Nugent and Cowboy U. Only in armor on mighty steeds.
:twisted:

This could also boost North American interest in traditional WMA, helping
local pro studios reach a larger market segment by giving them something to
aspire to - hopefully, large paychecks for pro combatants!!! Note I said
pay not necessarily purses. That is still TBD IMHO. :o

To this end I have set up a fledgling production company and bought the
domain name www.combatjoust.com.

I feel that similar past and present endeavors have been strangled,
primarily by lack of funding. Like anywhere else, money talks and
bullshit walks. To address that, I am now currently collating material for
presentations and business plans for sponsors, tv execs and investors. I
plan to secure funding first, then go to production, in that order, to
better avoid tragedy and heartache. Save that for that lists. :twisted:

I want to market the Holy Knights in Shining Armor aspect. Kids and chix
dig that. G-rated at all times. It markets itself to males - no worries
there. So to that affect, combatants will sign a public behavior clause in
their contracts. Act your ass in public and you're fired. Period. Its a
powerful PR thang, so no remorse. :wink:

Who wants to play?
Who wants to help in the lists?
Who wants to help in the back office?
Who wants to watch and be rabid fans?
Who can get me 15 minutes in a suitable network executive's office? Sci-Fi,
History, OLN, Spike, ESPN2, ESPN, ESPN8 the Ocho etc...

I tried to add a poll but those only seem to work on OT but I was going to
ask if:
1) This could Work
or
2)This is a Bigger Crack Dream than Pro Dodgeball

Any and all advice at this point is utterly welcome, both positive and
negative. You are the most overall-well-informed single group I could ever
hope to present this to. 8) Your feedback will be invaluable (even the
stoopid stuff :P ).

any heretofore unpublished original content or concepts herein
©2006 Knight's Tale Productions USA, aka World Combat Jousting League,
if utilized by same
Last edited by Jonny Deuteronomy on Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Leo Medii
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Post by Leo Medii »

Will I get phone numbers and panties in my helmet like the old ren faire days? :P :P
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Jonny Deuteronomy
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Post by Jonny Deuteronomy »

Leo Medii wrote:Will I get phone numbers and panties in my helmet like the old ren faire days? :P :P

Yes, even if I have to put them there myself. :wink:
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Livia Tasia
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Post by Livia Tasia »

I think what you're doing is great Trystan. And if you can figure out a way to make up to the Pacific Northwest (per the thoughts on the other thread!) - even better!
Tasia
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Post by Jonny Deuteronomy »

liviatasia wrote:I think what you're doing is great Trystan. And if you can figure out a way to make up to the Pacific Northwest (per the thoughts on the other thread!) - even better!
Tasia

Thank you. I envision regionalizing it by time zone. Ideally, each zone will have its own local governance, to better accomodate local styles and tastes.
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Jeffrey Hedgecock
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Post by Jeffrey Hedgecock »

T-

I wish you all the best. There is definitely a need for this type of activity and plenty of people to play in it. It's great that you'll offer them a place to do it.

Cheers,

JH
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Jonny Deuteronomy
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Post by Jonny Deuteronomy »

Fond regards Jeff. Your place at the table is reserved, should you ever care to join us. If this takes off there may be some commerce headed your way if that is beneficial. :D
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Leo Medii
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Post by Leo Medii »

want to market the Holy Knights in Shining Armor aspect.


Hey, that was my persona! I always was the "good" guy.

If all the guys are "good" guys it won't be as dramatic and such. Just a saying that having a "bad" guy can be just as exciting and crowd pleasing!
Lion of Irnham - Martial undertaking should never be a lowest common denominator endeavor.
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Livia Tasia
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Post by Livia Tasia »

Shiny! Let's be bad guys... :twisted:
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Jonny Deuteronomy
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Post by Jonny Deuteronomy »

"Dude killed me with a sword Mal! How weird is that?" :D
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Post by Syrfinn »

Nice Serenity quote there Trystan. :)
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Jonny Deuteronomy
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Post by Jonny Deuteronomy »

Syr Finn wrote:Nice Serenity quote there Trystan. :)

Thank you Your Majesty.

I salute you and your wonderful Queen, in return:
[img]http://freelancers.faire.net/images/lavotte1.jpg[/img]
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AllenJ
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Post by AllenJ »

link isnt working.

My humble criticisms.

This is just about the ground fighting- I dont know anything about jousting.

If you are looking for a UFC type of fighting competetion I dont think it can be done with armor or steel. When doing armored combat, getting your opponent into a position to where they "tap out" is quite dangerous even with a blunt steel weapon. This would mean ramming a sword (ableit blunt) into some ones armpit, groin, back of the knee, underneath the helm, etc. All things that really get quite scary. If you were to do an unarmored wooden waster competetion, that might go somewhere. I think that you might want some protection for the eyes and possibly 'some' head padding. That way you can get some of the brutal attacks and people may get hands and arms broken/fractured, but no one is going to die. The head issue may have some problems. You would have to make it a valid target but still prevent major facial trauma. Theres a huge difference in force between a punch and a sword blow. This could also allow for more free grappling and fighting should someone get disarmed.

Just my two bits.

EDIT: You could actually play that angle up with the legitimate history of wasters or whale bones in blossfechten tournaments and the "manly-man, no armor to hide behind" thing.
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Post by Jonny Deuteronomy »

I was thinking no face or neck thrusting, and choice of poleaxe, great sword and maybe great maul? Maybe also flail and heater because everybody loves to watch flail and heater. Right? :twisted:

Swords would be round-tipped and rebated.
Half-swording is AOK.
Throws and binds should be ok.
KOs are AOK.
5-10 unaswered blows are a TKO. (#TBD)

Worry not, we will have lots and lots of insurance.
Also I am still trying to work out the ruleset...nothing is permanent yet.
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AllenJ
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Post by AllenJ »

Even with elimiating face and neck thrusts, there is still alot of risk at the other joints and gaps.

Also if you start counting blows its going to turn into a bit more of a boxing type contest, having the equivalent of Teddy's scorecard and judges. (maybe Lichtenauer's scorecard! :D )
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Post by Kaliban »

it can be done they are doing it in europe ...
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Post by Syrfinn »

Nah Trystan, not a king yet. :) Well not in the SCA.

In my own little mind, I am king of the penguins, but that is something me and my doctor discuss about on Wednesdays. :)

Trystan of Anglesey wrote:
Syr Finn wrote:Nice Serenity quote there Trystan. :)

Thank you Your Majesty.

I salute you and your wonderful Queen, in return:
Finn O'Shannon KSCA
AEthelmearc
"In each of us are Two Wolves. One Good, One Evil. Which one do you feed most?"
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Post by AllenJ »

Kaliban wrote:it can be done they are doing it in europe ...


got a link or any other info?
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Jonny Deuteronomy
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Post by Jonny Deuteronomy »

http://www.knightlyarts.com/text/rules/steelnhb.html

I would add to the victory conditions:
first blood
helmet comes off
7 or more unanswered blows
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Post by SirAngus »

I'm not sure that a large no holds barred tourney would be what you are looking for. First off, it's a very dangerous thing to do. People would very much have to have the mindset of UFC competitors and be willing to risk death to do it. Think of the animal ferocity involved woth those fights and now give each combattant a crobar.....

I think you really want to go towards a swordfighting point system. An easy to understand sword fighting system. NHB fights will always end on the ground... People dont want to see that. They want to see swordfighting in this venue.

I'd also limit the weapons to either one handed sword or longsword. They dont have the huge ammount of end mass that can seriously hurt someone like a great maul can...

On the jousting end, I bet you'll be doing freelancer style. While that is cool and where I cut my jousting teeth, if you want lots of serious competitors from all around the world, go with Balsa.. Trust me, I've been hit with balsa as hard as I have been hit with a solid, but it's showier. Thats what you need... lots of wood in the air...

Of course you do what you want. I'm just giving my point of view to help a buddy out :)
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Post by Jonny Deuteronomy »

I appreciate it! :D
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Post by Livia Tasia »

Trystan are you a Browncoat too? :twisted:
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