The Armour Archive

I don't want to derail logan's dream team thread so I'm starting a new thread for my comments...

Sir Fin seems to believe that ability to work together as a team is more important than individual ability in a melee. I disagree.

Often I hear of "the tournament fighters". Those guys who win tournaments and dominate the pickup field but somehow aren't valuable on the melee field. That's silly.

It's true that many fighters lack melee sense or ability to work on a team and lack the motivation or the requisites to acquire these abilities. It's also true some fighters specialize in melee and have maximized their melee sense relative to individual fighting prowess. Fighters in the second category who fall below the prowess of fighters in the first category can often be more valuable in war. However if you were to rate individual fighting prowess on a scale of 1-100, there's no way a 25 will be more valuable than an 80+ no matter how much more he/she concentrates on melee.

But that's not what the thread was about. The thread was about fighters that are ALL in the 85+ ability level and all good at melee and the question is, "Is it better to just take the best melee fighters and put them together regardless of afiliation or compatibility of style, or is it better to take the best melee groups? For a champion's team of any size, should you cherry pick the best fighters from all available fighers or cherry pick the best groups?

The answer to my mind, which has been demonstrated over and over again is that you always take the best fighters. The best melee fighters of course, which in some cases is not the best tourney fighters (though they will always be at least "nearly best" tourney fighters with their chosen melee weapon).

There are many examples where this has played out bt one that sticks out im my mind is the allied champions' battle at Pensic 34. Our side (Middle) picked the best fighters they had available from each kingdom and group. The other side made some effort in some cases to pick fighters who where known to be good at working together. There were people on our side that were actually worried because of it. There was some fretting on our side beforehand. Those who ascribe to the "best groups" philosophy were worried. I was near the far left (our left) with my spear and an anxious commander came over to me to warn me about some guys on the other side. "See those guys. That's Lord so-and-so from known-mercenary-thug-group and those guys LIVE for meleesand that's his two men-at-arms with him and they train together every weekend. You might need to reinforcements on this side." I thanked him for the warning but in my head I was thinking "Cool, that's at least two guys who aren't up to snuff." As it turned out those guys were a big weak spot. With the know world's top spearmen in this small, rough resurrection battle having a few guys who weren't quite as good at dueling made a huge difference as spearman who were otherwise well-matched suddenly found themselves facing 2:1 or somesuch because the same guys next to them kept getting targeted and removed quickly over and over again.

I've seen this same scenario play out again and again....


Gaston

...As a member of a certain so-and-so known-mercenary-thug-group all I can say is it wasn't us standing there across from you on that field... ... because you'd probably have a different story to tell.

Teamwork, combined with competent tactics and leadership, will most always trump individual heroics in melee. And groups like so-and-so known-mercenary-thug-groups and royalist households who train together will most always excel at this in the heat of battle against a hastily assembled "dream team" of individualist top sticks and spears. It goes double when two teams learn to work together on the battle field out of necessity.

Example: In the first woods battle at this years Pennsic a certain so-and-so known-mercenary-thug-group was fighting beside the Ansteorra war host. When things get a bit static we sometimes do a faint withdrawal (a combat drill of ours) to see if we can lure the other side out of formation by chasing us. This breaks up their formations and gives our spearman/axemen some quick easy kills.

Anyway we did this and the group in front of us took the bait, as they ran after us the Ansteorrians, who were off on our flank, caught on to this and flanked the enemy that chased us. We had them in a nasty kill pocket and killed them to a man. After that fight an Ansteorrian knight came up to us and said "hey that worked great, lets do it again". So we did, about 3 or 4 times, and it worked great. So by using teamwork, tactics and some command and control we killed dozens, held our zone and had fun.

What more could you want out of a melee?

I think it depends on the situation. In a situation like the champions battle at pennsic you have to go one way or the other 100%. Ie, if you are going to go the "works together well route" then you have to go 100% that way and get your WHOLE SIDE outfitted with like minded people. You can't have half team players and half solo gunslingers unless you have a VERY charismatic and commanding general who can control each group and make them work as a team.

Also, with a res battle "team tactics" are COMPLETELY different since you have a constantly fluctuating "team" after the first contact. Very rarely will you have the same guys next to each other after first contact. In a rez battle the super solo gun fighter is showcased. The scenario lends itself to that type of fighter.

Now lets switch up the scenario a bit.

Last man standing, broken field battle. In a situation like this small groups of fighters working together can totally dominate. So, in a battle like this I would take the side that had many small groups that work together.

Of course I am from Calontir and Always work together, so we have a different view of what is important on the field of battle.

NOW, all that being said, I think once you reach a certain caliber of fighter (which more times than not is prevalent at the Champions battle) That same super gun slinger is very competent in teamwork as well.

Lol, glad I looked in this thread.

I think you might of taken a little more from my comments than what I was expecting.

Sorry, but I will take a melee fighter anyday of the week, over the tourney fighters, who think fighting in a melee means they walk around looking for single fights instead of working as a team. Thats what I mean by the tourney fighter.

Plenty, and most of the really good tourney fighters also are really good melee fighters. Those I love to see on the field. But the ones who dont work with the team and end up getting people killed due to those people trying to help protect the guy, cause he is being an idiot, I can do without, and no I would not put them on a 10 man melee team.

Think you read my post a little wrong. Look at my list of fighters for the any weapons list. It has mostly dukes and such on it. Just where I am from, the guys I think are excellent melee S/S fighters, happen to not be knights at this time. They all happen to be very good tourney fighters also. But they just know what working as a team means, and not acting like a hero and getting folks killed for it.

edit - and as far as your scenario Gaston, I have seen the opposite happen. When I was an unbelt, on more than one occassion during warlord tourneys or whatever, have been on a team of total unbelts as leader, and been lucky enough to have guys that wanted to listen to a game plan, and we take out teams of supposedly excellent tourney knights, who thought that being a hero could win the day for them. And show them, that good team work, will take out a good tourney fighter.

Then again, applying the Triad system I learned in Atlantia helped with each of those fights. Love Triad System, its my friend.

Actually gaston, I think I can see where you might of gotten a little offended from my statement on the thing from Logan.

This is probably it. "Its one of the reasons I dont like these kind of lists that much. Tourney guys always tend to find their way on them, though they are pretty much an albatross in melees, cause they decide to go into hero mode, instead of team mode."

I could of worded that a lot better. Like I said, what I meant, was tourney fighters who all they do in melees is walk around looking for single fights, or doing their own thing, and end up dragging folks who dont know better off with them and getting them killed.

Coming from my background in Atlantia, it was driven in our heads, that you were not just a good tourney fighter, you also had to be a good melee fighter. Wasnt till I moved from there, that I discovered not everyone believes that way, and that some folks find it just fine to just be a tourney fighter, or just a melee fighter, and its fine. Was a bit of a culture shock for me.

So when I moved here 10 years ago. I noticed that some of our really good tourney fighters, didnt work with units in melees and just walked around trying to get singles or if they were in a unit, soon left the unit to go chase down a single person for a fight. So was just one of those things that grated on me.

So is one of my pet peeves, and probably always will be. Specially where the Chiv are concerned. As I tell my students, you are not to just strive to be a god on the tourney field, you have to strive to be a god on the melee field also, to be one of mine.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

InsaneIrish wrote:Also, with a res battle "team tactics" are COMPLETELY different since you have a constantly fluctuating "team" after the first contact. Very rarely will you have the same guys next to each other after first contact. In a rez battle the super solo gun fighter is showcased. The scenario lends itself to that type of fighter.

While you have a point some units, like mine, make plans and drills for that as well for res battles. One thing we try not to do is dribble back into battle in ones and twos if the res point is far away. Of course this all depends on the situation but then that goes back to command and control.

Knowing when to stay at the res point to build up numbers or to run back into battle alone all comes down to training and having a plan known by the entire household/unit. Same holds true of the other end of the battlefield: if the household is down to a few guys left it could be time to withdraw or die in one last charge to get back to the rest of the household. Again all this is situation based and calls for someone to make a decision.

In a melee, teamwork. Situational awareness, a shared tactical philosophy and trust are more important that being a skilled individual fighter. Of course, being a skilled individual fighter is a big help.

Since I've written an entire article on this subject, I'll leave my comments at that.

I was fortunate enough to be in this years allied champions battle (middle). We lost because when the other team came out of res, they did it like they had a plan. We came out like we were fleeing a burning building. As a filthy mercenary, I get to see a lot of different command structures. Although it has charm and great potential for low comedy, gaggle of confused heroes is not one of my favorites.

I'm really glad my post generated so much interest.

RoaK wrote:...As a member of a certain so-and-so known-mercenary-thug-group all I can say is it wasn't us standing there across from you on that field... ... because you'd probably have a different story to tell.

Was that you? Perhaps. To tell the truth I don't remember the name of the group or the individuals as I had never heard of either before. You do realize of course that I'm not refering to this year's battle....

Sir Finn:

This is probably it. "Its one of the reasons I dont like these kind of lists that much. Tourney guys always tend to find their way on them, though they are pretty much an albatross in melees, cause they decide to go into hero mode, instead of team mode."

Not offended by any means. I just happen to have a different opinion.

I could of worded that a lot better. Like I said, what I meant, was tourney fighters who all they do in melees is walk around looking for single fights, or doing their own thing, and end up dragging folks who dont know better off with them and getting them killed.

Oh, those guys. Yeah, I hate them, too. But they are incredibly rare. I only know of two in Trimaris, and only one of those is a peer. There are of course those rare fighters who have very good individual skills but are "melee retarded". Those guys are so rare though that they really don't fit into the equation and certainly aren't (or shouldn't be) a factor in a "cream of the crop" melee event because they just shouldn't be picked.

There are really two sepparate issues here which can easily get confounded. The primary point of my post is "Best melee fighters vs best melee fighters who are already a team" and the second issue is "best melee fighters vs best fighters"

G

No it wasn't us, we (Clovenshield) have about 22 in our unit at Pennsic. About half them are spearman.

Gaston de Vieuxchamps wrote:

RoaK wrote:...As a member of a certain so-and-so known-mercenary-thug-group all I can say is it wasn't us standing there across from you on that field... ... because you'd probably have a different story to tell.

Was that you? Perhaps. To tell the truth I don't remember the name of the group or the individuals as I had never heard of either before. You do realize of course that I'm not refering to this year's battle....

I believe that hotdogs against a cohesive line will lose every time. Especially in a static line. Teamwork and melee awareness is the way. It''s too easy to kill someone when you know you can count on the guy next to you for a block, hook, shot, etc....

Sascha
House Darkmoon

edited for spelling

Gaston de Vieuxchamps wrote:Often I hear of "the tournament fighters". Those guys who win tournaments and dominate the pickup field but somehow aren't valuable on the melee field. That's silly.

Gaston

It may be silly, but I know a Duke that is that way, to a degree. He might even tell you that himself.

Calontir isn't necessarily successful because of the individual caliber of fighter, but because they train to operate as a unit. At the lower level, more importance is placed on the ability to work in a melee, while individual weapons expertise is needed to move to the higher level.

Now, when you get some folks that are both expert with their weapons, and work well together in melee...

Might not be prevelent down in your area, but when I first moved up here, it actually was. Enough for me to do a doubletake, cause I wasnt sure of what the heck I was seeing.

Luckily, things have changed, and a lot of those guys either dont play a whole lot anymore, or work with thier local groups now and fight with them.

Why is it us mercenaries always get the "thug" additive to us? I mean it's not like we're breakin legs for the kings or anything. Most of em don't like us anyways.....
To my mind a thug in the SCA sense is someone that just swings for the fences and hopes his shots make the other guy go away. Those who actually fight with some skill and initiative albeit for pay should not have the label.
And no I'm not being pissy bout it...Just curious how someone from Clovenshield, Tuchux, etc gets the accolade "thug"automatically. Instead of just saying Mercenaries..

Your not the only ones Angus.

Heck I still hear grumblings about myself, Count Andrew and Duke Malcolm, as those fng Atlantian Thugs. By now I have begun to carry that as a badge of honor. :p

Then again, I like the other names folks came up for us, which was the Atlantian Mafia. Been thinking of making t-shirts for it.

Granted, I have now lived longer in AEthelmearc 3 years more than I had in Atlantia, but that seems to not matter to that certain circle of people.

Oh well, I am over trying to be the nice guy, and just gonna play how I like, and well if they cant deal with it, they can write my congressman.

But you guys are not the only ones who get labeled as thugs. Maybe we ought to have a get together at Pennsic next year. The First Annual Meeting of the Thugs.

We can all introduce ourselves at the beginning.

Hi I'm Finn, and I am a Thug. :p

Syr Finn wrote:Your not the only ones Angus.

Heck I still hear grumblings about myself, Count Andrew and Duke Malcolm, as those fng Atlantian Thugs. By now I have begun to carry that as a badge of honor. :p



Hi I'm Finn, and I am a Thug. :p

But you are a transplanted Atlantian thug I even saw the shirts that Atlantians wear heralding proudly their "thugness" at Crusades ..Simple black in bold lettering "typical Atlantian thug"..albeit the person wearin it was just a wee slip of a lass.....hehehehe

Well ok, you got me, its not like I deny it. :p

We have some great singles fighters in House Bloodguard, but the thing that makes us deadly on the field is our ability to work as a team. I don't think it is a skill issue, I think it is a mind set issue. There is no way around it, in melee groups win, not singles. The best example I have is from this years Kingdom Crusades. My job was to go up the left flank during the field battles and hold off any little flanker units. At on point it was just me with a group of 5-7 guys just walking after me. If they had charged me I would have been toast or at the very least had to break off and split. But since they just tried to walk over me, I kept them at bay and just waited for back up. A good melee unit would have known to run that loan knight over like a speed bump and moved on. I don't care how good you are, no one can't stand against 5 or more guys for more than a few seconds. Anyone can be good at melee as long as there are teachers and they are willing to listen.

"I don't think it is a skill issue, I think it is a mind set issue..."

Bingo.

Some "tourney fighters" don't like melee.

Some "melee fighters" don't like tournaments.

Some folks just like to fight.

That said, an individual fighter has his/her strengths. I grew up (so to speak) fighting melees in a sheildwall. The mind set of a shield is a very well learned response that is deeply embedded in my old lizard-like 8086 fighting chip. Tournament fighting, OTOH, is something I still struggle with to this day...

Anybody who wants to fight melee should be welcome. Anybody who wants to fight tourneys should be welcome as well. There's room for both and fighting in both is worth-while.

Mord.

This is a really cool thread.

Lots of good thoughts.

It is especially cool the way that folks are being careful about the way they disagree with one another.

I was originally a Melee fighter. I was adopted by a unit that treated me very well, when I was feeling badly treated. So I learned to play thier way. Never super good at it, but I did enjoy playing with my housebrothers.

I switched kingdoms, and ended up away from my folks, so I learned to fight like a tourney fighter. I discovered this summer at pennsic that I fight singles much better than I fight wars now. Odd that, I tend to do better at what I am practicing.

I do want to point out one thing that a lance composed almost entirely of newbies benefits the SCA in a very tangible and meaningful way. It gives the SCA 5-7 newbies who are motivated and driven to do well. Giving new folks a place to belong is a positive thing.

f

I can see the mindset being a major contributor. I know of several guys that in single combat really aren't that good. BUT and this is a big but, you stick em in a melee line and they are hell on wheels and nothing can be done wrong. They just enjoy the melee scenario more than the single combats.

The ability to work well as a team is a huge factor. I would chose two skilled fighters who have worked as a team over two skilled fighters who have not worked as a team any day. There is something to be said about the synergy between comrades who train together that makes them very formidable.

With that said, the variables for chosing a team based on skill versus training it an argument that could go in many directions, with varying results. Hard to pick the winner.

But this is my opinion.

Odo

I found this thread to be an interesting read. By the time I got to the end of everyones comments I kinda lost some of what I wanted to say on the matter. I have seen many sides of this conversation happen with success and failure in the short time that I have been fighting. Including seeing two fighters from our Kingdom take an entire unit of 16 men out of action simply by throwing themselves in front of them as they started a charge and everyone fell over them.

I consider myself a tourney fighter while I also have a deep deep love for Melees I have even commented that if I die I want my ashes spread over the hill the woods battle is on at Pennsic. Yes kinda stupid but that might give you an idea how much I love melee battles and res battles. I have seen a tourney fighter single handedly wipe out a 10 man house because the house thought their big shields would protect them. I have seen House Darkmoon destroy every thing that came in front of them to the score of a small army.

So much depends on the situation and the ability of the men involved to pick up clues and read the situation.

It is late here I am tired I hope some of this made sense :: chuckles::

"I am Krotuas"

I pick up a weapon.
I enter the list and do my best to defeat my foe.

I didn't realize there were different fights!

Nice thread. It's good to see everyone is getting along.

Tourney fighters in a melee? Sometimes they do better than okay, but I wouldn't place a significant bet on tourney fighters against seasoned melee units. Conversely, I'd hesitate to disaggregate some melee units into a tournament (oh, the horror!).

Was it Ursus who captured a series of telling photos at the Castle Battle at Pennsic 34, the year where the armies were out of balance -- about 3:1? Mercs were hired to fight with the lone East Kingdom army. Black Talon, Angelsey and others held a side of the Castle against the Atlantians (my home Kingdom and home of reknown tournament fighters--said Thugs) and others. Atlantia (and others), trying to fight as a unit, broke like water against our shield wall--the entire battle. It's captured in the photos.

I have my most rewarding melee experiences with Black Talon who fight, generally, as a unit. Some of our fighters, like Argh, Keegan, Morgan, Sakura, Neck, Old Man Dalton, and Musashi do very well in tournaments. I think our edge as a unit is that we have a, for the lack of another term, bond of brotherhood. There is a tangible sense of team (our tabbards, our battle cry, etc), and an almost professional sense of having a "job to do." This focus, among other things, helps keep us together on the field. (Or, maybe it's the mind numbing Jack Daniels?)

Anyway, I've participated in a number of melee events with Atlantia without BT and it's frustrating from my point of view. Why? Instead of one or two voices giving commands and a voice to follow into the field, I hear 4 or 5 conflicting voices and then nothing. Instead of jokes and laughing and the anticipation of the fight, I witness angst, irritation, fear, and hesitation. And on two separate occassions (name withheld for good reason) an Atlantian Royal actually berated fighters as if this would rally the troops??? Instead of the thrill of the pack, following a leader into the field, I found myself entering melee unprotected and rudderless.

If Atlantia would allow, say, Turgis of Stierbach, who does an amazing job at communicating and galvanizing a cohesive unit (in my opinion), to take a more prominent role in whiping the Atlantian Army into shape as a war unit, they would be a true force to be met. Until something like that happens, well, Atlantia has a fine, handsome set of well dressed, highly skilled tourney fighters.

Hey, I love Atlantia anyways (I live here), I'm just sayin.

Cat

Leo Medii wrote:I pick up a weapon.
I enter the list and do my best to defeat my foe.

I didn't realize there were different fights!

Yep, Sir Keiran, as different as greatword and polearm.

I just tell my guys that the bar stays closed if they dont work together.

Amazing how effective that is for unit cohesiveness.

Yep, Sir Keiran, as different as greatword and polearm.

Strangely, I fight polearm in tourney and switch to sword and shield for war! But, I do use full gauntlets, and carry a rondel sidearm, and all sorts of useful death impliments on me.

I just like to be the swiss army knife of death so to speak!

Cat of Black Talon wrote:Tourney fighters in a melee? Sometimes they do better than okay, but I wouldn't place a significant bet on tourney fighters against seasoned melee units. Conversely, I'd hesitate to disaggregate some melee units into a tournament (oh, the horror!).

It really depends on the fighter. I have seen a single seasoned fighter stop an entire unit cold, but hitting them at the right spot. Sir Buqu is one such person. I know what you are saying Cat but it comes down to focus. It is one thing to have a cohesive fighting household/merc unit who knows each other personally, what their strengths and weaknesses are. It is another when you are trying to coordinate an entire army across several states. The important thing is the overall skill of the fighters.

Cat of Black Talon wrote:If Atlantia would allow, say, Turgis of Stierbach, who does an amazing job at communicating and galvanizing a cohesive unit (in my opinion), to take a more prominent role in whiping the Atlantian Army into shape as a war unit, they would be a true force to be met. Until something like that happens, well, Atlantia has a fine, handsome set of well dressed, highly skilled tourney fighters.

Hey, I love Atlantia anyways (I live here), I'm just sayin.

Cat

First of all. Patience. Second of all. A unit is not a full army. And there are many things that have to happen to bring the army up to a good speed.

Cat of Black Talon wrote:

Tourney fighters in a melee? Sometimes they do better than okay, but I wouldn't place a significant bet on tourney fighters against seasoned melee units. Conversely, I'd hesitate to disaggregate some melee units into a tournament (oh, the horror!).

My squire Krotuas and I stopped an entire unit (about 20 guys) one year at Pennsic from making a charge. We didn't kill a single one but threw them into complete disarray long enough for them to be decimated by another unit. The opposing group was completely ineffective.

Neither one of us died. We did get up and walk off the field though, laughing very hard. The best part was that during the time when the opposing unit was getting ready to charge and our counter charge (of two men) I made bets with several people in units around us that I was going to single handedly stop that particular unit. I did not win the bets because I used another person.

no shit there I was,
Odo

edited for spelling

You know, I've kind of seen that in the past during Kings Assessment events, saw it at a melee we had a few years back at Tourney of Chiv with unbelts v. belts, etc.

My thought is that to be an effective unit, you should probably have a core group of guys that train together as a unit. Then it helps to pick up fighters here and there that have had enough experience to be able to meld into the unit, understand why they are sliding this way, or checking up, and be able to add value.

It's kind of like when you have a well trained unit, and then different guys come up asking if they can run with you at this event or that event. Instead of having one overall leader contending with different micro leaders pulling the unit apart, you have a core group of guys who follow the designated leader, and can draw the newcomers along with them and keep things together.

Does that makes sense? It's how I've felt a few times when running with Atlantia as an army on the field versus running with Duke Logan and Ebonwoulfe. Everyone in Ebonwoulfe understands how the unit works, their goals, and their methods to achieve them. It's really cool when things can work out like that on the field, instead of chaos.

Cat of Black Talon wrote:Anyway, I've participated in a number of melee events with Atlantia without BT and it's frustrating from my point of view. Why? Instead of one or two voices giving commands and a voice to follow into the field, I hear 4 or 5 conflicting voices and then nothing. Instead of jokes and laughing and the anticipation of the fight, I witness angst, irritation, fear, and hesitation. And on two separate occassions (name withheld for good reason) an Atlantian Royal actually berated fighters as if this would rally the troops??? Instead of the thrill of the pack, following a leader into the field, I found myself entering melee unprotected and rudderless.

If Atlantia would allow, say, Turgis of Stierbach, who does an amazing job at communicating and galvanizing a cohesive unit (in my opinion), to take a more prominent role in whiping the Atlantian Army into shape as a war unit, they would be a true force to be met. Until something like that happens, well, Atlantia has a fine, handsome set of well dressed, highly skilled tourney fighters.

Hey, I love Atlantia anyways (I live here), I'm just sayin.

Cat

[quote="Winterfell"]
It really depends on the fighter. I have seen a single seasoned fighter stop an entire unit cold, but hitting them at the right spot. Sir Buqu is one such person. I know what you are saying Cat but it comes down to focus. It is one thing to have a cohesive fighting household/merc unit who knows each other personally, what their strengths and weaknesses are. It is another when you are trying to coordinate an entire army across several states. The important thing is the overall skill of the fighters.

Mista Connor Winterfell,
Hey handsome, of course it depends on the fighter. And yeah, Buqu rocks in that Steve McQueen kinda way. So does Ruslan who tied up 15 or so, pulling them off of us this past Pennsic.

Talon is spread from DC to Vegas. I think the magic to our unit's cohesion goes beyond focus to something touched on in another thread about heart. I know it sounds.... goofy, but the thing that I think keeps us together is a balance of focus, heart, spirit, and of course skill.

I don't know Brian from Atlantia. Is he Ebonwulf? They sound like a cool unit. Why haven't I been introduced to this group, Connor? They're probably down in Southern Atlantia--great balls of fire!

On behalf of building greater brotherhood among fighters, wish we could have an informal gathering without belts or insignia to get to know each other better. Some place where the Chiv doesn't just hang out with the Chiv. It doesn't have to be a fighting event and certainly not an award-giving event. How about a drinking event! Kidding. How'bout a "no shit I was there" event around a campfire?

Cat