SCA sheild strapping conventions

[audax]

Greetings all,

In Jess's sword position/power generation/sheildwork thread, I said I find it counter-intuitive to use a sheild set up for a horseman while fighting on foot. Another archiver sent me a PM asking me to elucidate my thoughts on that and i thought it would make for an interesting discussion on the boards.

So here are my thoughts on it: When sitting a horse, a strapped sheild of say, a heater or kite shape, privides a static but large defense to that side while leaving that hand free to hold the reins and control the horse. The point of the sheild covers much of the leg and knee. This same set up on foot seems cumbersome and at least in the SCA, makes for some odd body positions (sorry, Oldcastle guys ). It also seems to put the shoulder joint in a compromised position, causing a lot of stress on an already unstable joint. Just ask my rotator cuffs.

In addition, in many depictions of sieges and infantry combat that I have seen, many of the soldiers carry small rounds or ovals, some even heaters (see my old center grip heater thread) which look to be set up for a central grip, with or without a boss. I know in a few of my books David Nicolle has mentioned the use of such sheilds in sieges. I have also seen illustrations in things like the Univeral History of William of Tyre, a History of Outremer(can't remember the author right now) and a couple of other manuscripts from Outremer, that show knights as well as sergeants carrying such small sheilds, strapped or center grip. Some were even set up to be used strapped or center grip. I've also seen some depictions of HYW battles showing footmen using the same sort of sheilds.

The truth is my own logic leads me to think that a center gripped sheild is a more biomechanically sound way to carry a sheild on foot than a big heater or kite strapped to ones arm and cocked around to the front.

I am interested in others thoughts on this. Agree? Disagree? Please discuss. I'd also love to see iconographic evidence of sieges, battles, and even dismounted tournament or behourd combat.

Thanks,

audax

[Adamo]

Most heaters for SCA are strapped so that your arm is at the "top" of the shield I think. Historically, would the shields have been strapped like that or with the arm running down the "length" of the shield, with your fist near the point? The second way seems more natural to me when thinking about a horseman.
Does anyone know more on that?

Adamo

[Blaine de Navarre]

A number of years ago, we looked closely at all of the "kite" shields in the Bayeux Tapestry. On one hand, all the ones shown from the front have bosses, but on the other hand all the ones shown from the back look to be strapped. They are almost exclusively used by horsemen. Our, admittedly speculative, conclusion was that the shields were probably built to be used either way, and were commonly worn strapped while on horseback, but center-grip when on foot.

In terms of utility for SCA-style fighting, I used a strapped heater for many years and now use a center-grip kite. I haven't noticed a big difference either in effectiveness or arm/shoulder fatigue, so I'd say it really is a matter of preference.

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

Strapping vs center grip .... regardless of the shape of the shield has a lot to do with how a person fights. I started with a center grip round, first off because it fit my persona. I switched to a strapped oval because my shield elbow has developed arthritis and taking shots on the shield while holding it out by hand jars the elbow alot and causes considerable pain. Strapping a shield allows the entire arm to carry the burden spread out. Not requiring the forearm to strain (hence those tendons that go into the elbow causing pain). I think the norman kites were set up for both as can be seen in the Bayeux tapestry for various reasons. Strapped on horseback or foot for long carring times, center grip for personal combat or that sudden; " I need to fight now!!!" instance. Remember they lived in a violent world that at times required instant reaction. With a center grip you can just pick it up off the ground and fight. Just some thoughts on the why.

Why in SCA combat is the strapped heater so prefered is due to some restrictions that give it an advantage. The biggest one being that shields are purely defensive; no shield bashing and secondly they are invulnerable. You can't put an axe through someones shield and arm like you could in a real fight. The corners that are so helpful in SCA combat wouldn't last that long against mass weapons or even swords for that matter.

well I guess I will stop rambling now!

[Kilkenny]

Greetings all,

In Jess's sword position/power generation/sheildwork thread, I said I find it counter-intuitive to use a sheild set up for a horseman while fighting on foot. Another archiver sent me a PM asking me to elucidate my thoughts on that and i thought it would make for an interesting discussion on the boards.

So here are my thoughts on it: When sitting a horse, a strapped sheild of say, a heater or kite shape, privides a static but large defense to that side while leaving that hand free to hold the reins and control the horse. The point of the sheild covers much of the leg and knee. This same set up on foot seems cumbersome and at least in the SCA, makes for some odd body positions (sorry, Oldcastle guys ). It also seems to put the shoulder joint in a compromised position, causing a lot of stress on an already unstable joint. Just ask my rotator cuffs.

In addition, in many depictions of sieges and infantry combat that I have seen, many of the soldiers carry small rounds or ovals, some even heaters (see my old center grip heater thread) which look to be set up for a central grip, with or without a boss. I know in a few of my books David Nicolle has mentioned the use of such sheilds in sieges. I have also seen illustrations in things like the Univeral History of William of Tyre, a History of Outremer(can't remember the author right now) and a couple of other manuscripts from Outremer, that show knights as well as sergeants carrying such small sheilds, strapped or center grip. Some were even set up to be used strapped or center grip. I've also seen some depictions of HYW battles showing footmen using the same sort of sheilds.

The truth is my own logic leads me to think that a center gripped sheild is a more biomechanically sound way to carry a sheild on foot than a big heater or kite strapped to ones arm and cocked around to the front.

I am interested in others thoughts on this. Agree? Disagree? Please discuss. I'd also love to see iconographic evidence of sieges, battles, and even dismounted tournament or behourd combat.

Thanks,

audax

A couple of thoughts. The mounting of a shield for use on horseback is fundamentally unlike the mounting of a shield for use on foot (as generally seen in the SCA) in a very obvious way - the hand is left free to hold the reins, rather than holding a handle on the shield, or being strapped to the shield.

I'm quite certain that the strapping for use on horseback would differ in a number of other ways. Consider the position of the arm for riding - it's not remotely close to the position for fighting on foot (I would *love* to see my opponent holding their shield arm as if for riding).

I think center grip shields are physically more demanding than shields strapped to the arm. I also think this is one of those areas where "odd body positions" is very much a matter of personal preference and physique, rather than involving any truisms.

A center grip makes for a shield that's easy to grab and go - and easy to dump as well.

There may be something important in that last part, something about how they thought of their shields. I can drop it whenever and go to using two hands on my weapon.....If one considers spear and shield - if the shield were really important, wouldn't you strap it to the arm and keep the hand free so you could use both hands on the spear *and* keep your shield ?
(merrily out in speculationland)

Anyway, I think choices in shield mounting are just that, choices, with different benefits and drawbacks to each choice..just like with shield shapes.

Gavin

[mordreth]

If you think of a siege the majority of threat is coming (for the beseigers) from above at an sharp angle (arrows/stones/trays of hot sand etc) It would make sense for a center grip shield to be used in that situation since you would be using it to cover yourself in a way that would be suicidal in a single combat with another man on foot, and a strapped shield is a bear to get "tabled" over your head.
I have my shields strapped authenticly, and usually use the guige when fighting with one (admittedly a rare occurance) - my left hand is usually quite relaxed and provides fine control to the shield without requiring a death grip clenched hand so I think the same strapping would work on foot or mounted.
On the other hand I remember seeing documentation for some late (I think German) heaters that had two handgrips - I had thought at the time one for on foot, the other for mounted combat

[audax]

If you think of a siege the majority of threat is coming (for the beseigers) from above at an sharp angle (arrows/stones/trays of hot sand etc) It would make sense for a center grip shield to be used in that situation since you would be using it to cover yourself in a way that would be suicidal in a single combat with another man on foot, and a strapped shield is a bear to get "tabled" over your head.
I have my shields strapped authenticly, and usually use the guige when fighting with one (admittedly a rare occurance) - my left hand is usually quite relaxed and provides fine control to the shield without requiring a death grip clenched hand so I think the same strapping would work on foot or mounted.
On the other hand I remember seeing documentation for some late (I think German) heaters that had two handgrips - I had thought at the time one for on foot, the other for mounted combat

Do happen to have pics of your strapping arrangements? I quite agree with you about the siege situation, tabling a strapped shield would be difficult.

Alot of my books are about Outremer, since that is where my persona is from, and siege warfare was very common. The lighter sheilds seemed to be favored as was lighter armor because of the climate and the type of enemies they faced.

It seems that it's pretty much personal preference in most cases.

audax

[mordreth]

I'll take a look to see if I can remember which book it was in

[Scorpus]

If you think of a siege the majority of threat is coming (for the beseigers) from above at an sharp angle (arrows/stones/trays of hot sand etc) It would make sense for a center grip shield to be used in that situation since you would be using it to cover yourself in a way that would be suicidal in a single combat with another man on foot, and a strapped shield is a bear to get "tabled" over your head.
I have my shields strapped authenticly, and usually use the guige when fighting with one (admittedly a rare occurance) - my left hand is usually quite relaxed and provides fine control to the shield without requiring a death grip clenched hand so I think the same strapping would work on foot or mounted.
On the other hand I remember seeing documentation for some late (I think German) heaters that had two handgrips - I had thought at the time one for on foot, the other for mounted combat

Do happen to have pics of your strapping arrangements? I quite agree with you about the siege situation, tabling a strapped shield would be difficult.

Alot of my books are about Outremer, since that is where my persona is from, and siege warfare was very common. The lighter sheilds seemed to be favored as was lighter armor because of the climate and the type of enemies they faced.

It seems that it's pretty much personal preference in most cases.

audax

I see conversation on center-hung and strapped but don't forget that with center hung you can have a vertical grip and a horizontal grip as with the Roman "Scutum". Horizontal gripped center hung tend to get tabled much easier if you run on a smaller size shield specially in SCA style combat. A large Scutum can be braced against the thigh and arm leaving your head exposed but giving you more control. Just a couple of thoughts to add to your "stew" here....

[mordreth]

If you think of a siege the majority of threat is coming (for the beseigers) from above at an sharp angle (arrows/stones/trays of hot sand etc) It would make sense for a center grip shield to be used in that situation since you would be using it to cover yourself in a way that would be suicidal in a single combat with another man on foot, and a strapped shield is a bear to get "tabled" over your head.
I have my shields strapped authenticly, and usually use the guige when fighting with one (admittedly a rare occurance) - my left hand is usually quite relaxed and provides fine control to the shield without requiring a death grip clenched hand so I think the same strapping would work on foot or mounted.
On the other hand I remember seeing documentation for some late (I think German) heaters that had two handgrips - I had thought at the time one for on foot, the other for mounted combat

Do happen to have pics of your strapping arrangements? I quite agree with you about the siege situation, tabling a strapped shield would be difficult.

Alot of my books are about Outremer, since that is where my persona is from, and siege warfare was very common. The lighter sheilds seemed to be favored as was lighter armor because of the climate and the type of enemies they faced.

It seems that it's pretty much personal preference in most cases.

audax

I feel quite dopey - you said my shield
I'll try to get a picture to you, I do spend a good amount of time seting up the strapping to balnce the shield, which may be part of why the shield floats on the arm straps without the hand strap being overly important in controlling its position

[Tor Magnusson]

Sorry, piggybacking off of this thread, I can't find the thread where this was already discussed.

I am about to make a new shield, and I want to put a curve in it.... I get the whole press idea, just can't remember what y'all said about which way the grain of the wood should go in the press, with parrell with the bend or across the bend... Or in other words, the grain will be running top to bottom of the shield or across the shield...

Thanks

Tor