Newbie questions...

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Greetings!

I was wondering the following subjects.

1) Halfswording techniques in SCA fighting? Allowed?

2) Grappling allowed? yes no how much? (that means can I just jump the duke and stab him while he is wondering what the heck?)

3) rules for two handed sword fighting?


Thanks!!!!!!!!


Rowan

[audax]

Greetings!

I was wondering the following subjects.

1) Halfswording techniques in SCA fighting? Allowed?

2) Grappling allowed? yes no how much? (that means can I just jump the duke and stab him while he is wondering what the heck?)

3) rules for two handed sword fighting?


Thanks!!!!!!!!


Rowan

Halfswording is not allowed except in specified venues. You will know what those are because you'll be told. No grappling of your opponents body, you can grab the haft of a weapon. PLease try to jump the duke. Get video. You can't touch haft to body, you can touch haft to sheild or weapon.

There is a rule that says you cannot swing your longsword/polearm beyond 90 degrees, meaning you can't rear back and swing for the fences. You don't want to break your friends. No striking with the pommel or cross guard. You can have a stabby tip. You can have a back up weapon. Beyond that it is pretty much like any other weapons form.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

I thought we got rid of the 90 deg. rule, and changed it to excessive force?

[Ottokar]

There is a rule that says you cannot swing your longsword/polearm beyond 90 degrees, meaning you can't rear back and swing for the fences.

Don't swing for the fences but there is no 90 degree rule in the SCA Rules of the List. Your kingdom rules may vary.

[Henry of Bexley]

90 degree is gone- excessive force is now the covention. (EDIT- we posted at the same time...)

Half-swording is legal with the re-write, using your own weapon. Can't touch your opponent's blade, but you can touch your own.

No grappling. That is usually defined as body to body. Sheild/haft bashing is not allowed, but it is perfectly acceptable to PLACE said things against your opponent in a controlled manner to control their movement.

Can't really say a whole ton on two-handed sword technique- as of right now I'm a sword and shield specialist.

[Alric]

90 degrees I thought was for melee only..
As for halfswording according to current Marshal's book, you can grab the blade of YOUR weapon and the haft of your opponent's.
And a certain amount of body contact is acceptable.
Alric

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

90 degrees I thought was for melee only..
As for halfswording according to current Marshal's book, you can grab the blade of YOUR weapon and the haft of your opponent's.
And a certain amount of body contact is acceptable.
Alric

Incidental body contact is acceptable, but deliberate body to body, shield to body or haft to body contact is prohibited.

[iaenmor]

D. A shield or weapon may be used to displace, deflect, or immobilize an opponent’s shield or weapon, so long as such use does not endanger the safety of the combatants. A shield or haft may be safely placed against the opponent's body to restrict his ability to strike or defend.

[Henry of Bexley]

I need to actually get out and try some of the physical stuff we are allowed to do, but no one seems to think is legal... and have my rules right by my armour bag...

[Christophe de Frisselle]

Are we all reading the same rulebook?


He's in Atlantia. Try looking here : http://marshal.atlantia.sca.org
For the base SCA rules look here : http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/com ... index.html

[iaenmor]

No, some are going by the old rules. Some are going by the new ones. Some are going by what they were told years ago. Some have not bothered to look at the rules since the caveman days. Some will read and understand them one way and some the other way. Never ending cycle if you ask me.
If everyone would bother to go back and read them once in awhile it would make things alot easier. But then I have high hopes for this game.

[iaenmor]

Greetings!

I was wondering the following subjects.

1) Halfswording techniques in SCA fighting? Allowed?

2) Grappling allowed? yes no how much? (that means can I just jump the duke and stab him while he is wondering what the heck?)

3) rules for two handed sword fighting?


Thanks!!!!!!!!


Rowan

Halfswording is not allowed except in specified venues. You will know what those are because you'll be told. No grappling of your opponents body, you can grab the haft of a weapon. PLease try to jump the duke. Get video. You can't touch haft to body, you can touch haft to sheild or weapon.

There is a rule that says you cannot swing your longsword/polearm beyond 90 degrees, meaning you can't rear back and swing for the fences. You don't want to break your friends. No striking with the pommel or cross guard. You can have a stabby tip. You can have a back up weapon. Beyond that it is pretty much like any other weapons form.

Audax, darling where in the seven hells did you pull these answers from. Now I realize that halfswording is just now being allowed. Please read my post above. Then read Christophe's with the link to the new Society rules. Not trying to be an ass, but I would like to see that you are up to date on the rules. From what you have posted you are not.

Also could anyone please point out in the rules (at least for the last couple of years) were in the Sam Houston the 90 degree rule is. Not worrying to much about local rules but the Society ones. I have gone back in the copies that I have for the last 4 years and can not find it. Someone please help clarify this for me.

Not trying to pick on anyone but damm the youngling asked a couple of legit questions and got some answers that I can not believe. I know all of us can read but damm. When was the last time some of us have bothered to look this up. Part of this game is making sure that you know the rules not relying on someone else to do that for you. I can guarantee that you do not rely on someone else to take care of your armour do you?

[iaenmor]

Rowan, to answer your questions. Read Christophe de Frisselle's post and read the rules. Once you done so and if you still have questions please come back and ask them. One of the things that you will find about this board is people are more willing to help if do some research first and ask about what you do not understand. Unless you are talking to Klaus then you had better have your spelling and puncuation correct also. Or was that Konstantin the Red, I always get those two mixed up.

Btw, I too would like to see the video of you jumping a Duke like that. It will most likely be worth a laugh or two.

[audax]

Greetings!

I was wondering the following subjects.

1) Halfswording techniques in SCA fighting? Allowed?

2) Grappling allowed? yes no how much? (that means can I just jump the duke and stab him while he is wondering what the heck?)

3) rules for two handed sword fighting?


Thanks!!!!!!!!


Rowan

Halfswording is not allowed except in specified venues. You will know what those are because you'll be told. No grappling of your opponents body, you can grab the haft of a weapon. PLease try to jump the duke. Get video. You can't touch haft to body, you can touch haft to sheild or weapon.

There is a rule that says you cannot swing your longsword/polearm beyond 90 degrees, meaning you can't rear back and swing for the fences. You don't want to break your friends. No striking with the pommel or cross guard. You can have a stabby tip. You can have a back up weapon. Beyond that it is pretty much like any other weapons form.

Audax, darling where in the seven hells did you pull these answers from. Now I realize that halfswording is just now being allowed. Please read my post above. Then read Christophe's with the link to the new Society rules. Not trying to be an ass, but I would like to see that you are up to date on the rules. From what you have posted you are not.

Also could anyone please point out in the rules (at least for the last couple of years) were in the Sam Houston the 90 degree rule is. Not worrying to much about local rules but the Society ones. I have gone back in the copies that I have for the last 4 years and can not find it. Someone please help clarify this for me.

Not trying to pick on anyone but damm the youngling asked a couple of legit questions and got some answers that I can not believe. I know all of us can read but damm. When was the last time some of us have bothered to look this up. Part of this game is making sure that you know the rules not relying on someone else to do that for you. I can guarantee that you do not rely on someone else to take care of your armour do you?

You're right, Mr. Moore. I am wrong. My apologies to Rowan. I have the current Marshal's Handbook in front of me, but being a busy grad student, with way more than enough to read, I had not given it a thourough enough perusal and was relying on local custom as my guide.

Having said that, I do not appreciate your condescension or patronization on a public forum. Do not do it again.

Thank you and regards,

audax

(edited to remove excessive sarcasm)

[freiman the minstrel]

The ninety degree rule and the excessive force rule amounted to essentially the same thing, but the 90 deg rule seemed a little stupid. It also had a chilling effect on "c blocks" which I have always thought were some of the more beautiful and fun ways to use a great weapon.

Rowan, while grapping is specificly not allowed, there is a LOT of manipulation of your opponent that is allowed. While you aren't allowed to do hip throws, joint locks, and other stuff like that, most of those things would do you little good in an SCA context anyway (mostly). You don't gain victory in an SCA setting by bearing your opponent to the ground. Since anytime your opponent has "three points down" on the tourney field it results in a hold, it would do you little good to do it anyway.

You get victory by striking your opponent with a weapon.

Oddly enough, a whole lot of things that you can do that can help you to accomplish that. Your opponent's shield is yours to manipulate with your weapon, shield or even (according to some) your hands. (I don't touch my opponents sheild with my hands, and you shouldn't do so until you are very, very clear on your rules, and a much more proficient fighter). Your opponent's weapon may be manipulated with your sheild, weapons, or in the case of hafted weapons, your hands. By pressing your sheild into close proximity with your opponents weapon, you can essentially block that weapon to the outide, and with a lot of practice, you can render it almost useless to them. You can press your sheild into contact with their sheild, and literally push and shove them across the field. You can hook their shields and weapons with hooking weapons, and I have seen folks in melees literally pulled screaming into the opposing ranks because they could not release their sheild straps fast enough.

If you can master all of that, then you probably don't need to worry about grappling.

f

[Alexander]

Since anytime your opponent has "three points down" on the tourney field it results in a hold

Freiman,

Can you point me to where in the rules this is stated? I have done a search but cannot find anything that even comes close.

[freiman the minstrel]

Since anytime your opponent has "three points down" on the tourney field it results in a hold

Freiman,

Can you point me to where in the rules this is stated? I have done a search but cannot find anything that even comes close.

Well, Alexander, you got me. I just looked for it, and I can't find it. I seem to remember it being in a definition of "defenseless" but I can't find that either.

f

[Stefan ap Llewelyn]

2) Grappling allowed? yes no how much? (that means can I just jump the duke and stab him while he is wondering what the heck?)

I am trying some SCA fighting, coming from a steel background where grappling is legal and quite common.

I thought that the no grappling rule would be restrictive and frustrating.

One thing that I have learned - when you are close enough to grapple your opponent you are close enough to receive a wrap shot. Grappling someone's sword arm such that they can neither wrap nor stab you in the face is very difficult to do on a skilled fighter.

I did not need this demonstrated more than once.

I am guessing that if you jump a duke, he will not stand there wondering 'what the heck' he will hit you so hard your mum will feel it and then politely explain that what you did is in breach of the rules.

[kenrickb]

Since anytime your opponent has "three points down" on the tourney field it results in a hold

Freiman,

Can you point me to where in the rules this is stated? I have done a search but cannot find anything that even comes close.

Well, Alexander, you got me. I just looked for it, and I can't find it. I seem to remember it being in a definition of "defenseless" but I can't find that either.

f

III.B.7 A fighter shall not deliberately strike a helpless opponent.

Kenric

[cblackthorne]

The "three points down" is not a rule from any of the marshal's books that Im aware of, but rather a common description of what a helpless opponent looks like for those who can't seem to tell.

Same thing for the "90 degree" rule. I have seen it used to explain to a new fighter who is still not that sure about calibration, that if you swing at more than 90 degrees, chances are you are using too much force.

[Konstantin the Red]

Unless you are talking to Klaus then you had better have your spelling and puncuation correct also. Or was that Konstantin the Red, I always get those two mixed up.

We do, too. And hmmm... "puncuation?" Is this one of those change-a-letter-then-come-up-with-new-definition things? Like "reintarnation = coming back as a hillbilly?"

And I gotta apologize for thread hijack.

[freiman the minstrel]

Actually, I talked to somebody last night that reads this archive (who also fights and marshals). He said that the "Three points down rule" seemed familiar to him too, though when he looked, he couldn't find it either.

I think it is embedded in my unconscious from watching pro football, where it seems (I could be wrong) to be the way that some condition of a runner is defined (I would bet that's "down"). At some point I started using it to define the exact moment that a fighter was "down", so I was using it as part of my personal definition of "defensless" or "helpless". I don't feel so bad because I wasn't the only one.

It's really embarrasing when I get rules wrong, and I am glad that Vicar Alexander caught that.

So, to paraphrase my earlier statement to Rowan:

Since anytime you throw your opponent down on the tourney field it results in a hold, it would do you little good to do it anyway.

The correction is in italics.

Sorry, folks, for splitting hairs. The "three points down" thing is a pretty good definition for the exact point in time that a fighter has hit the ground, but it isn't the way the society defines it. This means that I could still use it as a convienent definition of "helpless in" some situations (mostly falling down). The difference is that it doesn't apply (for instance) when a fighter is on his or her knees, and leans back so far that his or her helm touches the ground.

I am also really sorry for the diversion of the thread.

f