Glue and Rattan Question SCA

[Alric]

Hey, quick question...
So I am under the impression that we in the SCA are not allowed to alter the rattan or add anything that would reduce the flexibility of the rattan. I have heard of some people who soak their sticks in glue to "make the sticks last longer."
I read this in the latest issue of the Marshal's handbook:
"Section VII
11. Rattan shall not be treated in any way that will substantially reduce it's flexibility (e.g, treated with wax, resin, fiberglass, etc.)."

I spoke with a few woodworkers, and they told me that glue will absolutely reduce the flexibility of rattan, since the fibers will be glued together, the rattan would deffinately last longer, but like particle board which is created with bits of wood and glue, it would change the nature of the rattan.
What are people's thoughts about this?
Alric

[Cet]

It's not a legal practice under the current rules.

[D. Sebastian]

Not allowed.

Wouldn't it also make the stick really heavy?

[Broadway]

Hmmmm...

After my stick starts to broom out at the tip, I'll use some wood glue to hold it all together for one or two more practices.

I don't soak the stick, but it is using glue on the rattan.

This would be illegal then?

I'll have to stop doing it...

[Syrfinn]

I believe its not allowed, and I am not sure if by doing so, that if the stick broke, that it would not maintain the reason why we use rattan, and that it would actually end up having jagged points, once broken.

Havent tried it to see if thats the case, just making a guess, thats what would happen if it broke.

[Syrfinn]

I believe its not allowed, and I am not sure if by doing so, that if the stick broke, that it would not maintain the reason why we use rattan, and that it would actually end up having jagged points, once broken.

Havent tried it to see if thats the case, just making a guess, thats what would happen if it broke.

[RoaK]

Not allowed.

Wouldn't it also make the stick really heavy?

Indeed... and then you'd have guys soaking just the ends of their sticks (say the first or last 12 inches or so) to control the swing of their swords...

You want it hilt heavy or tip heavy? No problem... till the damn thing breaks and hurts somebody.

[Wat of Sarum]

In my neck of the woods it's considered acceptable to REPAIR rattan that has broomed out or gone mushy with white Elmer's type glue. This is different from somehow drawing it through intact rattan to laminate it. A repaired glue/rattan sword is not stronger, harder, or better than nice fresh rattan. Just a stopgap until you can sport some new wood.

Wat

[jester]

The rule leaves it up to individual marshals to judge and implies that marshals should be testing rattan swords for flexibility and asking questions about how it was constructed. Off the top of my head I don't see a better way to write the rule without outright banning any treatment at all.

And the rule makes no mention of weight being an issue in this matter. If someone wants to soak their blade to make it heavier then it would appear that they can, so long as the flexibility of the blade is unimpaired.

[D. Sebastian]

I ment heavy as in less user friendly, unwieldly, bad for the joints.

[mordreth]

I frequently give rattan a drink (soak in water for a day or so) prior to making a sword, if anything it increases the flexability,
glue on the other hand is right out, it stiffens the rattan significantly.
On the brighter side glued swords tend to break since they have less give

[Duane W]

I believe its not allowed, and I am not sure if by doing so, that if the stick broke, that it would not maintain the reason why we use rattan, and that it would actually end up having jagged points, once broken.

Havent tried it to see if thats the case, just making a guess, thats what would happen if it broke.

What happens is that the non-glued rattan breaks apart while the glued rattan stays together. So you end up "brooming" the stuff that was one step behind getting pulped in the first place. It ends up being a loosing battle, since the glued stuff is so ever slightly less flexible than the non-glued stuff it actually contributes to breaking down whatever intact fibers are present in the stick.

Eventually you end up with a solid mass similar in nature to solid fiberglass rod. (Can you say ouch?)

You'd have to be very patient to get to get the rattan to this point, but it can be done. (Just don't ask me why I know this. )


Most people quit after one or two reglueings, when the stiffness/ weight increase is not a safety issue. Then it becomes at test of will as to how much longer you want to continue the insanity. (At this point you have a tip heavy pell sword that if you use it on yur friends you better be prepared to get your butt kicked for really hurting them - hence the rules against using significantly altered rattan.)


AcW

[Ceddie]

My take on:

"Section VII
11. Rattan shall not be treated in any way that will substantially reduce it's flexibility (e.g, treated with wax, resin, fiberglass, etc.)."

there have been enough rewrites with this language on the books that if we didn't want glue used, it would be clearly stated.
The fact that:
1) folks paint elmers glue into the ends of broomed sticks to get a little more out of them all the time and noone gets hurt tells me that it doesn't substantially reduce it's flexibility. It may affect the weight but that isn't against the rules.
and
2) the Known World Handbook tells us we can use epoxy on swords to seal the ends.
says that on a SCA wide level, glueing the end of the stick is ok so long as you don't take it over the weight limit.

[Vebrand]

I have been using wood glue on broomed rattan for 10-15 years and in several different Kingdoms with no complaints. As long as it's not a glue with resin built in it that is.

However there is a great story of very young Duke Tomiki dipping a piece of rattan in liquid nails many, many years ago. Seems it a bit on the stiff side

Vebrand

[Kilkenny]

Hey, quick question...
So I am under the impression that we in the SCA are not allowed to alter the rattan or add anything that would reduce the flexibility of the rattan. I have heard of some people who soak their sticks in glue to "make the sticks last longer."
I read this in the latest issue of the Marshal's handbook:
"Section VII
11. Rattan shall not be treated in any way that will substantially reduce it's flexibility (e.g, treated with wax, resin, fiberglass, etc.)."

I spoke with a few woodworkers, and they told me that glue will absolutely reduce the flexibility of rattan, since the fibers will be glued together, the rattan would deffinately last longer, but like particle board which is created with bits of wood and glue, it would change the nature of the rattan.
What are people's thoughts about this?
Alric

Back when rocks were soft, there were lots of things that we were allowed to do. At the time, many of them didn't seem like that bad an idea. Some went away faster than others.

For example, it was once perfectly legal to make mass weapons (axes, maces) using hardwood handles... axes with real axe handles...maces based on little leageue baseball bats. You could even weight the head of your mace by wrapping lead foil around the rattan.

Those all went away pretty fast.

We used to get really crappy rattan, pretty much all the time. Fighters would gather around and drool when someone got a stick of the good stuff - unpeeled Manoan (sp?). The first edition Knowne Worlde Handboke describes making fibreglass laminated swords for use in the lists - and yes, they were stiff as hell... and broke too easily .

There were all kinds of recipes around for making the crappy stuff we were getting hold up under abuse. Soak it in linseed oil, stand it on end in elmer's glue, in elmer's glue 2:1 with water, elmer's glue 4:1 with water. Leave it soaking in your bathtub for a week. Use fibreglass strapping tape but never spiral wrap, always along the length - use fibreglass strapping tape but never along the length, always spiral wrap. I'm sure there were lots more, some I never heard of, some I've just forgotten.

It took longer for the rules to change to prohibit these various practices - in part because when done out of necessity they didn't create any problems at all, in fact they reduced some problems. Yes, soaking your rattan in pretty much anything will increase the weight of the stick - believe me, some of that stuff needed the extra weight. Yes, glue, or linseed oil, or anything else that binds the fibres of the rattan makes it stiffer - and again, some of that stuff needed that help too.

But when you get a really sweet piece of three inch thick unpeeled rattan that still feels alive - it doesn't need *any* help. So when we started getting good rattan on a regular basis, and we had grown to the point where not everyone who heard the stories about how you prepare your rattan understood that this practice was for the cruddy lightweight dried out stuff, not for the good quality sticks, well then we had a problem developing.

People would juice sticks that didn't need it, and that made for some ugly weapons.

So, doctoring a sick stick shouldn't raise any problems anywhere. Loading up a sound one is the problem.

Gavin

[Morgan]

Yeah, I've used glue to fix sticks for a little extra life, and glued the tip of new rattan to get a bit longer life out of them, never had a problem. As Ceddie says, I'm careful to not significantly reduce the flexability. a little glue makes $6-8 in rattan last a little longer, that's cool.

The repaired sticks do usually become practice-only swords tho.

[rob(in)]

"Section VII
11. Rattan shall not be treated in any way that will substantially reduce it's flexibility (e.g, treated with wax, resin, fiberglass, etc.)."


key word: substantially

as long as it still has some flex, i'd pass it, as long as it's under the weight limit. why? because we can use 3" rattan, planed on the sides that -will not- flex.

i remember back when light swords were in fashion, everyone was shaving the skin off and covering the bare rattan in nylon stockings and wood glue. light, little more durable and still flexed w/in the normal limits of rattan.

[Mord]

Hey, quick question...
So I am under the impression that we in the SCA are not allowed to alter the rattan or add anything that would reduce the flexibility of the rattan. I have heard of some people who soak their sticks in glue to "make the sticks last longer."
I read this in the latest issue of the Marshal's handbook:
"Section VII
11. Rattan shall not be treated in any way that will substantially reduce it's flexibility (e.g, treated with wax, resin, fiberglass, etc.)."

I spoke with a few woodworkers, and they told me that glue will absolutely reduce the flexibility of rattan, since the fibers will be glued together, the rattan would deffinately last longer, but like particle board which is created with bits of wood and glue, it would change the nature of the rattan.
What are people's thoughts about this?
Alric

Back when rocks were soft, there were lots of things that we were allowed to do. At the time, many of them didn't seem like that bad an idea. Some went away faster than others.

For example, it was once perfectly legal to make mass weapons (axes, maces) using hardwood handles... axes with real axe handles...maces based on little leageue baseball bats. You could even weight the head of your mace by wrapping lead foil around the rattan.

Those all went away pretty fast.

We used to get really crappy rattan, pretty much all the time. Fighters would gather around and drool when someone got a stick of the good stuff - unpeeled Manoan (sp?). The first edition Knowne Worlde Handboke describes making fibreglass laminated swords for use in the lists - and yes, they were stiff as hell... and broke too easily .

There were all kinds of recipes around for making the crappy stuff we were getting hold up under abuse. Soak it in linseed oil, stand it on end in elmer's glue, in elmer's glue 2:1 with water, elmer's glue 4:1 with water. Leave it soaking in your bathtub for a week. Use fibreglass strapping tape but never spiral wrap, always along the length - use fibreglass strapping tape but never along the length, always spiral wrap. I'm sure there were lots more, some I never heard of, some I've just forgotten.

It took longer for the rules to change to prohibit these various practices - in part because when done out of necessity they didn't create any problems at all, in fact they reduced some problems. Yes, soaking your rattan in pretty much anything will increase the weight of the stick - believe me, some of that stuff needed the extra weight. Yes, glue, or linseed oil, or anything else that binds the fibres of the rattan makes it stiffer - and again, some of that stuff needed that help too.

But when you get a really sweet piece of three inch thick unpeeled rattan that still feels alive - it doesn't need *any* help. So when we started getting good rattan on a regular basis, and we had grown to the point where not everyone who heard the stories about how you prepare your rattan understood that this practice was for the cruddy lightweight dried out stuff, not for the good quality sticks, well then we had a problem developing.

People would juice sticks that didn't need it, and that made for some ugly weapons.

So, doctoring a sick stick shouldn't raise any problems anywhere. Loading up a sound one is the problem.

Gavin

Yup. I have heard, from my early days, that someone would soak (perhaps "marinate" is a more appropriate word) rattan in pvc tube (plugged at one end) filled with water, glycerin, and other ingredients for a few days, and then, when preparing the material for combat, would wrap the rattan in shrink tubing. Ek.

I have also heard, way back, that a certain mad scientist at Cornell made a shield out acrlyic soaked leather. I have never seen the shield in question, nor had a chance to ask the mad scientist in question.

Mord.