The Armour Archive

The kits here are inspiring. Its nice to see the distinct lack of hockey helmets in these shots.
I'm with Gordon though in my concern. I want folks to be inspired to horse, but for the right reasons.

When he says it takes years of training to carry this off properly, he's correct. Please don't get me wrong...this sort of evolution in the SCA is marvelous... but I worry that putting less than ready folks aboard will get horses hurt. The bars of the mouth are very tender, easily bruised. When folks have their fight on, they are looking at their opponent, not necessarily to their mount. A shield is an element I'm not sure should be added at this point in the evolution, but no one asked me again.

I've repeatedly seen inexperienced people put on rentals at events. Members of chivalry aboard with their giant roweled spurs for instance. New riders tend to balance with their hands and grasp with their legs. Horses tend to be forgiving. We owe them a lot. Poor damn rentals in particular.
Does anyone tell these guys to take off their GD spurs?? Spurs are a useful tool on experienced feet for horses that need those aids. On inexperienced feet...? Use your imagination.

Please be inspired! Call a local training stable, take lessons weekly. The discipline isn't really important at first. Getting your seat, leg and balance is. The Western disciplines, reining and cattle work is a blast and will teach you a deep seat and light hands.

I've been riding and competing and raising horses for over 30 years. I start all of my own babies. I still take lessons. there is always more to learn.
I get passionate about these things. I hope I'm not sounding like a harpy.

Vitus...don't give up. Be inspired.

Drefan- A hackamore, if its mechanical, is like a bear-trap on their nose and jaw. Way more leverage. It doesn't take the place of soft hands and communicating with your seat and legs. You still need to be soft with your hands and communicate with your partner.

Now...can someone please tell the class why a thumping melee like this is OK, but we can't have experimental balsa jousting? Anyone Anyone, Beuler??

dev

Of the saddles on the field 2 were early norman period style saddles (as has been noted). Sir Alexis rides in a late 14th/early 15th style saddle (high cantle and pommel). At least 2, if not 3 of the other riders were in a australlian style saddle without a horn - most are sold as endurance saddles in that style. Basically a deep seated saddle without the horn and not as much of the leather skirting of a typical western saddle. It is what I myself ride in most of the time too and putting 30-40 miles in a weekend is nothing in that seat.

Just so everyone knows - back when the original jousting was proposed in the SCA the styrofoam was opted for to get the crack in the door open basically. From there, we have been able to work up to doing this kind of melee activity (granted, very experimental at this point in a melee form). I can tell you that there is a current rewrite of the rules for equestrian going through the process and that it is the hope and desire (and the work of a few) to get a chance to try balsa wood tips sometime after that point. I will endeavor to keep information on the AA as that kind of thing develops.

As an aside, another thing I want to see tried is the initial contact with the horses done with lances and then swords drawn, but at least right now, lance activity without a barrier is also out.

2Shires wrote:
Now...can someone please tell the class why a thumping melee like this is OK, but we can't have experimental balsa jousting? Anyone Anyone, Beuler??

dev

Sir Alexis' chamfron is just AWESOME - made me drool and I am not usually to excitable about armour. My understanding as to the reason of not using it was because its weight really requires a crinet (plates down the back of the horse's neck) to counter balance, otherwise it tends to slide down the horses face out of position and eventually causing problems.

Neassa wrote:That's my knight on the far right in the blue and white, Sir Alexis la Bouche. He's riding Booker. I don't know what that goofy looking thing is on Booker's head, but I do know that he finished a chanfron for his other horse just before Gulf War. I got to watch him fire it at 1:00 am Saturday night/Sunday morning. When the main piece came out and he quenched it the entire bucket of transmission fluid burst into flame, and when he rotated his piece (too big for the bucket) for a moment he was holding a completely flaming piece of armor shaped like a horse's head. It was awesome.

I'll see if I can get him to upload a picture of the completed chanfron.

Neassa

Bar's gone up again.

Raynold of Wharram wrote:Just so everyone knows - back when the original jousting was proposed in the SCA the styrofoam was opted for to get the crack in the door open basically. From there, we have been able to work up to doing this kind of melee activity (granted, very experimental at this point in a melee form). I can tell you that there is a current rewrite of the rules for equestrian going through the process and that it is the hope and desire (and the work of a few) to get a chance to try balsa wood tips sometime after that point. I will endeavor to keep information on the AA as that kind of thing develops.

As an aside, another thing I want to see tried is the initial contact with the horses done with lances and then swords drawn, but at least right now, lance activity without a barrier is also out.

Thank you for the information. I was aware that styrofoam was the "toe over the thresh-hold", but it's very good to hear that the machinery of state is creaking forward on the matter. Mounted Combat is just too cool a form of Armoured Discourse to not engage in!

As an interesting side-note, according to Henrik Olsgaard (Duke Henrik), in the early years of the SCA a certain proficiency in equestrian arts was required for Knighthood. Sad that the requirement fell by the wayside, but wonderful that mounted combat is finally coming into its own.

Cheers!

Gordon

2Shires wrote:Now...can someone please tell the class why a thumping melee like this is OK, but we can't have experimental balsa jousting? Anyone Anyone, Beuler??

dev

There are some efforts underway to bring this type of 'heavy' jousting to the SCA.

Raynold of Wharram wrote:Sir Alexis' chamfron is just AWESOME - made me drool and I am not usually to excitable about armour. My understanding as to the reason of not using it was because its weight really requires a crinet (plates down the back of the horse's neck) to counter balance, otherwise it tends to slide down the horses face out of position and eventually causing problems.

Neassa wrote:That's my knight on the far right in the blue and white, Sir Alexis la Bouche. He's riding Booker. I don't know what that goofy looking thing is on Booker's head, but I do know that he finished a chanfron for his other horse just before Gulf War. I got to watch him fire it at 1:00 am Saturday night/Sunday morning. When the main piece came out and he quenched it the entire bucket of transmission fluid burst into flame, and when he rotated his piece (too big for the bucket) for a moment he was holding a completely flaming piece of armor shaped like a horse's head. It was awesome.

I'll see if I can get him to upload a picture of the completed chanfron.

Neassa

That is correct - the whole kit will be at the Lysts of Castleton in May. We will make sure to post pics but please come see for yourself!

Well now i gotta get with Lloyd.

I have a problem though.


my legs are so damn short that it really makes it hard for me to keep my heels down on a horse of any size.

Think a midget on a horse.

Murdock wrote:Well now i gotta get with Lloyd.

I have a problem though.


my legs are so damn short that it really makes it hard for me to keep my heels down on a horse of any size.

Think a midget on a horse.

That is because you have been riding saddles that were built wayyy too big for you.

They come in sizes for a reason.

Raynold of Wharram wrote:Sir Alexis' chamfron is just AWESOME - made me drool and I am not usually to excitable about armour. My understanding as to the reason of not using it was because its weight really requires a crinet (plates down the back of the horse's neck) to counter balance, otherwise it tends to slide down the horses face out of position and eventually causing problems.

Yes, yes. We delayed leaving Houston for FOUR HOURS so he could finish his chanfron and start a crinet. (And pack, since he had worked on the chanfron all night...) He took the bare pieces of metal with him to Gulf War and did work on the crinet when he had time. Unfortunately, it didn't get done.

May. I'll get to see what held me up for four hours in May.

And HI, Reynold! I got your message. I'll see you and your lovely lady in Kentucky some time this June.

Neassa

If you think western saddles are too bulky them you'll never want to ride on any sort of medieval type saddle!

Here's how I look at saddles.... How much does the maker want me to fall off?
A carmague saddle - like riding in a hug. It loves you and never wants you to fall.
A western or aussie - likes you alot. If you have to fall out so be it, but it would prefer you didnt.
An english saddle - launching pad. Gives a tittering laugh each and every time it can make you airborn and it does everything it can to see you so....

Honestly, I think that all pieces of the equation needs to be looked at. Often people draw wrong conclusions about how the medievals did things because they dont have all the facts. Doing medieval style activities in medieval style equipment really starts to make things click.

actually the saddle i learned on was sized for some on smaller than me (the nice lady that was teaching me), the last one i rode on was western and it was too big.

The horse was a big ole Belgian mix named Roz

he was like riding a sofa.

Maybe i need an Icelandic pony

Or a horse that isn't the second largest commonly found breed in the US!

Dude.. I'm freakin 6'2 and I had a hard time getting my legs around a Belgian!

Try a Tennesee Walker or something else that wasn't bred to pull buildings around!

Ugg

I tried a walker

I hated the gait on it, it was like getting kicked in the ass every time the thing stepped.

I've been told that a nice Arabian mix or Andelusian would be good for what i wanna do, lean but still big enough to not look like i'm on a shetland pony.

Roz was i think Belgian and quarter.

Hi all,

I'll see if I can answer some of the questions regarding the mounted combat and some of the other issues brought up. Equestrian in the SCA has had a long history (back to the starting days) but has gone through several variations in terms of what we could do. At first it was ad hoc and wasn't really regulated, just a matter of who showed up and what they wanted to do. Then came an effort to fit it in to the regular structure and that brought a great deal of [over]regulation. Since then, we have been working to try to incorporate as many activities that we can, limited by what we can get approval for. The number of activities has grown based on showing that we have made extensive efforts to minimize the risks inherent to having horses. As Raynold pointed out, there is a new handbook being considered as we speak that will allow more discretion in what we can do.

Regarding the mounted combat specifically, several years ago we got approval for mounted crest combat using kid's boffer swords targetting the crest. This latest experimental version uses a rattan cored boffer sword targetting the upper body. Force level is set around 2/3 normal to help keep things more manageable.

At this time the activity is experimental in the SCA and subject to the control of the kingdom equestrian officers (KEO's). It is limited to proven riders who have demonstrated the requisite control. There were a number of practices held prior to the day in question where both riders and horses were evaluated for participation in the display. Although there were about 30 horses on site, we limited it to the 9 that took part based on those practices. Regarding the training, some of the riders and horses have been doing SCA games, including mounted combat and/or jousting for 10 years or more (not to mention some have done civil war and other reenactment). So it wasn't a matter of just throwing people up and letting them loose. One thing that has become quite clear is that the horse is often just as important as the rider to be able to do this well. Regarding the comment about the horse calling it quits, most of the horses have been bopped at some time. While some get less enthusiastic, some are just as competitive as the riders and really get into the activity. My horse Booker [in the blue and white barding] actually settled down once we got to go kill somebody. It reminded him of the time spent training and gave him something to focus on other than all the crowd.

Regarding jousting, while we are limited to using the foam tipped lances at the moment, we are laying the groundwork to show that we can safely transition to balsa tips for a heavier division.

To that end, we have organized some events like the Lysts of Castleton which features mounted combat to open, then a round of foot combat, concluding with jousting. All this is done is pas d'armes style with a great deal of pageantry.

As others have noted, if you are interested in giving it a try, the starting point is to get some saddle time. You can contact a local riding stable or get with equestrians in your area to help make arrangements.

Regarding the chanfron specifically, I got it done compliments of an all nighter before heading out to war. Despite an extra 6 hours on the way out due to 2 semi's and a load of cucumbers, I didn't get time to get the crinet done and tested. So, rather than trying to use it for the first time during the demo, I figured it was safer to go with a known (if ugly ) alternative. For the metal junkies, it is an .032 4130 hardened and tempered, lined with a heavy felt. While not based on a specific piece, it is done in the style of late 15th C. German.

Below are a couple of pictures and one of the sword.


All in all it was a blast, and I look forward to more. When several of us were on the field at Hastings last year we were commenting on 'if only we could do this in the SCA', and now we are. All in all, things are headed in the right direction.

Alexis

Neassa wrote:

Raynold of Wharram wrote:
May. I'll get to see what held me up for four hours in May.

And HI, Reynold! I got your message. I'll see you and your lovely lady in Kentucky some time this June.

Neassa

So - what you gonna be up here for in June? Gotta tell me so I can make sure come and help you find a man. Having a hard time cause of the age requirement.

Anyway, I am strongly considering running down to TX for the even in May myself. Looks like a good event. Just trying to decide if I can handle getting down there with a horse or if I should instead take Alexis up on his offer borrowing one instead. Just afraid that if I borrow one that likes to keep all 4 feet on the ground I am not sure I would know how to act and might just fall off due to lack of challenge to my seat. Ask Sir Alexis - he can explain about how often my horse was not being cooperative. That is the reason I didn't pursue getting into the melee - don't feel it was appropiate given his behavior so far during the week. Oh - and the bigger problem was really coming off 3 months with no riding for him. By Saturday he was having a brain in his head again. Wish we could get in a couple of weeks or riding before - but we had cold or wet weather everytime I tried. (How can I come up with enough for that indoor arena between now and next February anyway?)

I am lucky enough to be a squire of Earl Richard Rae Fen, and I just wanted to chime in that it definitely takes a lot of practice. My knight and the lovely Countess Ellawin have been holding regular monthly practices at their house in preparation for this event. It definitely takes a lot of saddle time, a lot of training, and a lot of evaluation before you're able to just "go at it", but I think it is all totally worth it.

Unfortunately, the closest I've come to it yet is to be there to hang out, and to make the scrolls for this tourney! Still, once my real life settles down a bit and I feel more comfortable with my ability to focus on learning, I totally plan to be out there!

Hey Raynold,
If your schedule allows any extra time, bring the horse on down and we can get some practice in before the event. I'll even throw in some balsa jousting and a good size portion of Texas ribs. If you came down to Houston first, I could put you up at the house while practicing, then we would head up to Austin for the event. If your schedule doesn't allow the side trip to Houston, I could meet you up there early to get some practice in. The site is really nice alongside a river and even includes a 1/2 size replica of Shakespeare's Globe theatre where court is held. The event should have pretty much all the riding and fighting you can stand to make up for the long haul.

Alexis

p.s. Can't guarantee that all four feet will stay on the ground even if I find a horse for you. After Booker's WWF move, it looks like the final result is a cracked rib. So no deep breathing for the next week or two, not to mention coughing really sucks . On the bright side, the footing will consist of something other than hay over mud.

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:I give up.

Vitus, You know in your heart that despair is an affront to god.

"Drefan- A hackamore, if its mechanical, is like a bear-trap on their nose and jaw. Way more leverage. It doesn't take the place of soft hands and communicating with your seat and legs. You still need to be soft with your hands and communicate with your partner. "

Dev, Thats good to know. Thanks! I do try to use a soft hand, but not being a terribly experienced rider, they could be softer.

Drefan

2Shires wrote:Now...can someone please tell the class why a thumping melee like this is OK, but we can't have experimental balsa jousting? Anyone Anyone, Beuler??

dev

Because the SCA is sometimes stupid?

Seriously there are some concerns about balsa jousting that are legitimate. Balsa, even scored balsa, does not always break; it sometimes can hit with dangerous force. There is a good picture on Jeff Wasson's website where a balsa MSR tip went through his thick wood shield and kept going. Which isn't a problem if you are wearing good armour, but most of the SCA wears crap for armour.

Also some genius might get whacked by the ferrule and take a solid shot which is a problem with inadequate armour.

And if you make a mistake in mounted melee, you probably won't hit the horse. It is really easy for things to go wrong in the joust and hit a horse. If you hurt a horse badly, the ASPCA will be all over us. Not a good thing for the horse or the SCA.

Now I think the above can be overcome to a large degree with proper equipment and training, the question has always been do we trust the SCA to enforce safety standards? We are notoriously lax in tolerating rule bending or outright breaking in rattan combat. The stakes are higher in jousting, you can really hurt somebody or his mount.

Personally I'd like to see balsa jousting in the SCA, but only if we are going to be very careful and not just let any idiot joust, the way we let just about any idiot fight rattan.

I think of how many years it took to finally yank one psychotic fighter's card here in the East after that person went off the meds one too many times. If that had been screwing up while jousting? Yikes...

I hope this isn't a hijack of this thread... maybe we should start a new one?

Seriously there are some concerns about balsa jousting that are legitimate. Balsa, even scored balsa, does not always break; it sometimes can hit with dangerous force. There is a good picture on Jeff Wasson's website where a balsa MSR tip went through his thick wood shield and kept going. Which isn't a problem if you are wearing good armour, but most of the SCA wears crap for armour.

I've seen that pic...yikes. It only illustrates the necessity to enforce actual armor STANDARDS. Not the minimum craptacular plastic all-inclusive whatever it is in place now.

There are still (for lack of a better term) "socket hits" with the cardboard. It can bruise. Bruises happen. Welcome to jousting.

Just because there is a minimum standard, this should not be what you aspire to. We cannot go at this with the notion of getting as many people ahorse and tilting as possible. This will require top notch kits and top notch training and hard bloody work. I can't wait.

I believe the folks driving and supporting balsa jousting in the SCA are the folks who can and are already doing it outside. I think it will only spur people to train harder and upgrade their kits.

And if you make a mistake in mounted melee, you probably won't hit the horse. It is really easy for things to go wrong in the joust and hit a horse. If you hurt a horse badly, the ASPCA will be all over us. Not a good thing for the horse or the SCA.

This hasn't been my experience. If something is going that awry, you had best have enough horse/lance control to pull your lance. I've not seen any horse injuries. This is a training issue.

I'm sure Rod or Lloyd can speak to this having run miles and miles more lyst than I.

Because the SCA is sometimes stupid?

I just think they use the Magic 8 Ball to make decisions.

I'm actually thrilled with the way forward. When every Emprise has jousting, behord/combat melees... I may actually join.

dev

SirAngus wrote:Here's how I look at saddles.... How much does the maker want me to fall off?

An english saddle - launching pad. Gives a tittering laugh each and every time it can make you airborn and it does everything it can to see you so....

I rode English once, and fell off twice. Made me want to reconsider my entire country of choice in the SCA if they were responsible for that bit of predetermined mayhem. I don't think you could knock me out of Sir Alexis's period saddle.

Oh, and whoever didn't like riding the Tennessee Walker was riding the wrong horse. God, they are sweet in that running walk!

Neassa

I started on English so thats what i got used to.

I don't ride enough to develope any muscle memory for a different saddle.


Course i would like to remedy that.

Neassa wrote:
Oh, and whoever didn't like riding the Tennessee Walker was riding the wrong horse. God, they are sweet in that running walk!

My guess is that they had gotten the horse into a pace rather than a running walk or rack. When I've ridden some of Raynold's previous Tennessee walkers, I had a hard time getting the gait that I wanted. I find the pace to be pretty jarring.

Sir Alexis wrote:Hey Raynold,
p.s. Can't guarantee that all four feet will stay on the ground even if I find a horse for you. After Booker's WWF move, it looks like the final result is a cracked rib. So no deep breathing for the next week or two, not to mention coughing really sucks . On the bright side, the footing will consist of something other than hay over mud.

Well, first sorry to hear about the cracked rib - think that puts you in good company though. Francesca, my lady, a few years ago at a ren faire, kind of passed out from heat, we think. That was bad enough - but to do that at the canter with lance in hand cantering at he quintain made it very ugly. We were all wondering why she was dropping her lance and 'slouching' in the saddle until she used her forhead on the quintain. That got her a couple of cracked ribs from the fall.

As for coming down for the event - really really wanting too. Just got to see if it is going to be in the budget between now and then, as I wasn't originally planning it. Not sure, but if I head down, would probably be on a Thursday - which puts me there sometime on Friday. So we could get some practice stuff somewhere. Will the mounted combat at this event be crest or the new heavier stuff? Couldn't find a website for the event to see the specifics.

And I agree wtih Neassa (and I am sure Sir Alexis will agree) if you thoguht TW was rough - you had him in the wrong gear. My previous TW's had about 7 gaits (walk, running walk, pace, high stepping show walk (same gait - just very high stepping and flashy), rack (4 beat gait, foot falls in different order), trot, canter, and gallop). All but the pace were pretty even and mellow. The trot on that paticular guy was a bit short and choppy, but you had to work to get a trot instead of a running walk or rack. Both of those two are smooth as butter - if you butt is moving you are NOT in the right gait - should be like sitting in a recliner in your living room almost. Sometimes it can be a problem if things are not right. My current TW has to have the angles right on his feet or he can get very trotty and hard to keep in a running walk. (TW typically trimmed with a steeper angle, resulting in longer toe - and don't get me started with all the stupid big heavy tall pads the "professional" show folks tend to use).

And speaking of Neassa - why didn't you send me back a message. Did you find yourself a man and to occupied?

Edit - I can't count the number of gaits - had 7 listed - not 6. And Edmund - what are you doing slipping in a post about my horses while I am composing one about them?

and don't get me started with all the stupid big heavy tall pads the "professional" show folks tend to use).

Raynold,
You just earned yourself a warm spot in my heart with that comment.
There are few things more vile that what takes place in the Big L walker shows. Hell, high level competition in many breeds. *sigh*
Dev

2Shires wrote:

You just earned yourself a warm spot in my heart with that comment.
There are few things more vile that what takes place in the Big L walker shows. Hell, high level competition in many breeds. *sigh*
Dev

Thank you Dev, but only stated my feelings on it. I have had walking horses that can hit very near the 'big lick' very natually without all those training aids and things that mess up joints and such. It is really in most cases, trying to make a horse do more then it can. And then too, the show ring is so off kilter from what the easy riding, kind of flashy, "plantation" horse was of old. Yes, flashy is nice, but within the natural ability of the horse. I have also had a TW or two that had been shown before like that. Big joints that get swollen very easy with any hard riding - just ashame to use up an animal that way in my opinion. And I agree, TW are not the only ones - Saddlebred 5 gaited showing is about the same and a lot of the other big money stuff is too.

Anyway - not sure if you caught my motto - but translated that latin is something like "The horse listens to the one that listens to the horse." - that basic idea includes stuff like the above.

Raynold of Wharram wrote:And speaking of Neassa - why didn't you send me back a message. Did you find yourself a man and to occupied?

Believe me, nothing that interesting. I was fetching the rest of my rather large collection of camping gear from Monkey Boy's. And pulling weeds. And outshooting Alexis with his pellet gun.

Neassa

Neassa wrote: I was fetching the rest of my rather large collection of camping gear from Monkey Boy's. And pulling weeds. And outshooting Alexis with his pellet gun.

Hey - you gotta be careful what you say around here. Us KY folks read that you were out shooting Alexis with his own gun... Anyway, glad to know that someone is beating him at something sometime. And don't even talk about unloading - I still have the nose of a stock trailer and most of a truck to unload. Had to go back to work first thing Monday and then today and yesterday on top of work had to teach class. Guess it will get done on the morrow. Or heck, maybe will just leave the loaded until the next event.

Raynold of Wharram wrote:
And Edmund - what are you doing slipping in a post about my horses while I am composing one about them?

Well, the hardware run this morning was a bust, so I'm goofing off while I try to come up with some other ideas for the shield press. Why are you composing posts about your horses when you are supposed to be working?

I just found my micrometers, so I'm going to go gauge the steel you have out in your shop.

i got the distinct impression that the TW i tried did not like me at all.

I never got it in the right "gear" apparently and the gait seemed awful high to me.

But i was used to riding a sofa with hooves...

Well as used to it as i ever got.

YES! Coming from a crazy, full contact jousting, live steel horseback and foot fighting, outsider, I must say that the SCA is finally looking up! J

So if we can’t get the SCA to do balsa jousting how about Rattan *wicked grin*

BTW for those who haven’t done any balsa jousting please keep in mind that balsa comes in different grades. If you use hard balsa it can hit as hard as solid pine. If you use soft balsa though you won’t even feel the hit, especially if it is scored.

Hey Rod, thanks for posting the pic. It is nice to know that we aren’t the only crazy ones ‘-) Your welcome to come out here and play any time you want but remember to bring your cowboy hat. They won’t let you into this county without one ‘-)

I have to say that I agree totally with what Gordon and Bev and others have said about making sure the level of horsemanship is there for mounted combat. I would have to see a novice rider and or a green horse in the middle of it.

Heels down: Sorry guys but this has nothing to do with saddle or horse build. Having your stirrups to long can be a factor but it comes down to proper instruction.
I have seen little kids on large horses do it and with good instruction anyone can.

Posting: I have seen a couple treads that reference this and I just don’t get it. If you can post properly you can post in or out of armor and in any saddle. Not only can you but you SHOULD! Posting is not only more comfortable for you but it is also more comfortable for your horse, especially if you’re in armor. You need to know how to properly sit a trot too but posting is a must if you’re going to be any kind of skilled rider.

Hackamore: BIG ditto to what Bev said about the mechanical hackamore. If you have never used a real hackamore and are planning to, you may want to reconsider. It takes much longer to learn to properly use a real hackamore that what you most likely using now. Again…just my .02c

The shield: IMHO they should get rid of the shield entirely for mounted combat. It may be great for foot but not when you’re on a horse and your left hand is in direct contact with your horse’s mouth. Looking at the photos you can see this in action. The reason you see a horses head in the air is because he is trying to get away form the excessive pressure on his mouth. This is not a criticism of the riders in the photos; it is just the reality of trying to use something in your left hand while horseback.

English vs. Western: I think the quality of instruction is FAR more important than the discipline. Growing up my mom trained primarily hunter/jumper and my dad trained stock horses. My dad would send his students to my mom so they could improve their balance and seat and she would send students to him to help them learn how to better move with their horse.
No matter how good a rider you are you can always learn more. I have been in the horse business for a long time now teaching training, teaching lessons, giving clinics, etc and I still seek out instruction to fill the gaps in my knowledge. If you’re a novice or intermediate rider and you want to become skilled you need to be taking lessons from a highly skilled trainer at least once a week. Sorry but there are no short cuts on this one.

Now a shameless plug: At this years School of the Renaissance Soldier we will be doing a jousting /knightly horsemanship clinic. It will be on Fri. the 20th and it looks like we will be taping some of it to add to our upcoming instructional video. If you’re interested please contact Gordon AKA Rittmeister Fry.

Hope I didn't just flood your e-mail Gordon LOL

Thanks for reading my rambling,
Jeff Sanders
www.joustingshows.com

2Shires wrote:I hope this isn't a hijack of this thread... maybe we should start a new one?

Seriously there are some concerns about balsa jousting that are legitimate. Balsa, even scored balsa, does not always break; it sometimes can hit with dangerous force. There is a good picture on Jeff Wasson's website where a balsa MSR tip went through his thick wood shield and kept going. Which isn't a problem if you are wearing good armour, but most of the SCA wears crap for armour.

I've seen that pic...yikes. It only illustrates the necessity to enforce actual armor STANDARDS. Not the minimum craptacular plastic all-inclusive whatever it is in place now.

There are still (for lack of a better term) "socket hits" with the cardboard. It can bruise. Bruises happen. Welcome to jousting.

Just because there is a minimum standard, this should not be what you aspire to. We cannot go at this with the notion of getting as many people ahorse and tilting as possible. This will require top notch kits and top notch training and hard bloody work. I can't wait.

I believe the folks driving and supporting balsa jousting in the SCA are the folks who can and are already doing it outside. I think it will only spur people to train harder and upgrade their kits.

And if you make a mistake in mounted melee, you probably won't hit the horse. It is really easy for things to go wrong in the joust and hit a horse. If you hurt a horse badly, the ASPCA will be all over us. Not a good thing for the horse or the SCA.

This hasn't been my experience. If something is going that awry, you had best have enough horse/lance control to pull your lance. I've not seen any horse injuries. This is a training issue.

I'm sure Rod or Lloyd can speak to this having run miles and miles more lyst than I.

Because the SCA is sometimes stupid?

I just think they use the Magic 8 Ball to make decisions.

I'm actually thrilled with the way forward. When every Emprise has jousting, behord/combat melees... I may actually join.

dev

I'm actually agreeing with you. With proper equipment, training, etc. it can be relatively safe. However I have seen horses and riders get hit where they should not, it does happen, though it is usually lack of training or practice or someone or something screwing up.