More on Oval shields...

[Glaukos the Athenian]

I guess I tried to leave the subject alone, but it will not leave me alone....

Yesterday in Barnes and Noble, I was leafing through a book and found this image.
http://i-cias.com/e.o/ill/crusades_large_01.jpg



Please notice the figure on the left side, with the crowned helmet, full armour with a tabard and what looks like an Oakeshott Type XV sword.

Notice the shield he is carrying. It looks like a curved oval, not too different in shape from that carried by the saxon Huscarl in the Bayeux tapestry.


Is this just an artistic license? and if not, why use an oval as opposed to a different shape? There are other shields on the field, (although not identical) so it does not appear that he artist is trying to show an exception in the fact of the carrying of the shield.
The choice of shape that late (it looks like very early 15th century from the armour) is interesting...

Rowan of Needwood

[Baron Gaston]

I am sorry are you asking if an oval is out of place for the Fifth Crusade? Oval is a perfectly viable shield option even that early. Or is your question about the availability of an oval in the late 14th century?

[^]

You find a lot of different shield shapes in 14th and 15th century Europe that we don't often think about. When we think of shields we tend to think of the popular cavalry shield of a decade. There are tons of curved oval shields in 15th century Italy, possibly Spain. Southern Europe stuck with infantry shields much longer.

Did you bring this up in another thread?

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Peder,

My previous "thing" with oval shields was sarted when I began making an "alternative" early-ish norse kit to my main one. The problem was that the duke who is teaching at out practice told me to dump the centerhold round and stay with a heater. That is great for my other kit, but IMHO it looks a little silly with a "vendelish" (I am quite flexible here, to match my ignorance) helmet.
I thought that a curved oval may be a compromise that would behave like a heater, but would not completely clash visually with an early kit.
I found that little fellow from the Bayeux tapestry and I had almost forgotten about the issue until I was leafing through a book at a bookstore and I saw the above image representing the taking of Damietta.

I am not sure, but I a growing a very deeps suspicion that the variety is not just in the 14 and 15 centuries, but that different shapes of shields were in use at the same time. We seem to have a limited number of sources and even those provide more than one option.

I recall seeing in the Kendall(?) book on Chivalry a couple of pages from heraldry treatises, where the shields are all identical heaters. Perhaps these sources have had an effect on how we view the use of shield shapes throughout the Middle Ages. I am surely not an expert, but I bet that things were not as orthodox as we tend to believe they were in these matters.


Rowan of Needwood

[Alcyoneus]

They were simply standardized for that format. All that really mattered for that list was the blazon.

[Tascius]

The "dump the round shield" is temporary. The class is being taught a style of blocking that is used with a strapped heater. A round shield or center grip have different dynamics. Remember the class you are in is starting from basics and is not an individual training program.

As of now we want everyone to get the basics of feeling the pace and timing of the fight. We want you to recognize the the openings you have and what areas are threatened. We wish to teach you to limit your shield movement so as to block with economy.

While I like ovals, have patience. No problem with getting a oval if you wish but we are going to continue teaching the strapped style.

More tonight provided the snow does not take us out!

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Thank you Tascius,

I guess I AM impatient in overcoming my own limitations.

I was intending to strap the oval like a heater, with an elbow strap and a basket grip. The issue being more one of aesthetics and visuals than actual fighting technique (I must be paying too much attention to the 14th Century mafia ). For the fighting style purposes, the oval I had in mind would be used in a fashion identical to the heater, just less 12-13 century looking.

I am also glad you are around. I know you have been totally crazy with work, so it is good to know you are in town, at least for today...

I am watching the weather. I'll post something on the RM lists and email those whose address I have if the place happens to close down because of the weather.

Thanks again for all the patience.

Rowan

The "dump the round shield" is temporary. The class is being taught a style of blocking that is used with a strapped heater. A round shield or center grip have different dynamics. Remember the class you are in is starting from basics and is not an individual training program.

As of now we want everyone to get the basics of feeling the pace and timing of the fight. We want you to recognize the the openings you have and what areas are threatened. We wish to teach you to limit your shield movement so as to block with economy.

While I like ovals, have patience. No problem with getting a oval if you wish but we are going to continue teaching the strapped style.

More tonight provided the snow does not take us out!

[marcus the pale]

Make the oval and play a little with it, but learn a little about the heater too. Having a shield without corners makes the blocking style change dramatically. Round or oval, or any shield shape with no corners, is a more active style, and in the beginning will lend itself to you getting legged more.

IMHO you shouldn't be forced to fight in a way that you are not interested in learning. But, the gentleman teaching you might not feel comfortable with a round, he may just not know how to fight too well with it. Take advantage of his teaching, but also take it upon yourself to play with both shields off and on. A few months down the road, start playing with the oval more, and find someone who fights with a round or oval and ask for pointers.

At this point, I'm having fun learning as much as I can.


my 2 bits


marcus

[^]

I am not sure, but I a growing a very deeps suspicion that the variety is not just in the 14 and 15 centuries, but that different shapes of shields were in use at the same time. We seem to have a limited number of sources and even those provide more than one option.

There tends to be a standard shield for a particular use in a particular time and place but that is how many things are. I think saying limited number of sources is largely false. I've looked at more late medieval art then I can remember. I'll tell you this though the larger the time and place you open the evidence up to the greater the likelihood that you can document anything.