using a weapon with a trigger

Edwin · Post by **Edwin** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:22 pm

Sword trigger, not gun trigger :wink:

I've never used a sword with a trigger, but am going to try it on my new weapon. Does anyone have specific techniques I should work on the pell with, or is this one of those things one learns just by trying?

freiman the minstrel · Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:30 pm

Really tough to describe for me. I do know that my perception is that it makes it faster to get the sword moving from a standstill. I have also gotten the impression from very, very good instructors that this is because I am gripping and focusing the sword incorrectly.

The really cool thing about them is that they remove the need for a lanyard in all the kingdoms I have fought in, and possibly all of them.

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Edmund of Hertford · Post by **Edmund of Hertford** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:37 pm

I have been using triggers with full gauntlets on my weapons (swords and maces) for several years now. Realistically there should not be drills or techniques specific to using a trigger on your sword versus a lanyard. Perhaps I am not fully understanding your question?

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:29 pm

True story:
Iâ€™m down at NASAâ€™s advanced suit lab at JSC (Johnson space center) (1997 or so) with Luke Apker. (armourer) We are down there to make a mold and do some research on NASAâ€™s new advanced Mark III spacesuit. While we are there they are testing the Mark III with some different types of shoulder joints to see which one is more efficient during typical astronaut tasks on the moon. In this case, using a hammer. Well they have this force gauge set up to measure impact, both in the vertical and the horizontal. They have a squawk box set up so you can hear the guy in the suit from his radio. (Since trying to shout past the helmet is difficult and loud for the occupant of the suit.)
Anyhow, we are over in a corner making a mold on a piece of a spacesuit when I here the head of the suit lab asking about some difficulty with the hammer. I soon realize that, because the pressurized suitâ€™s gloves â€œbulgeâ€

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:46 pm

Just play with it. They work fine, and if anything, you'll notice it's easier to do what you normally do.

Edwin · Post by **Edwin** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:11 am

Sir Gaston's story makes me think...

The trigger I have now is tied to the crossguard, and fits over my pointer and middle fingers. The way he described the hammer-trigger, the trigger is much longer, and ends up with the pinky and index finger going through it.

Who's tried which version, and what did you like best?

I'm going to make up 2 triggers, one long one short, and simply tie them to the sword until I know what I like, and then rig up something more permanent.

Alex Baird · Post by **Alex Baird** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:04 am

I use the first type (index and mid finger). I find it gives me a similar feel to having a finger looped over the quillons in my rapier hilt, and allows for better tip control than a standard "hammer" grip.

Which reminds me, is anyone making complex hilts for rattan, with quillons, knucklebow, pas de anes, and a ring or three? That is to say, an armored combat basket with proper styling for circa 1580-90 that could be used with a half gauntlet and still legally protect the fingers?

audax · Post by **audax** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:14 am

Alex Baird wrote:I use the first type (index and mid finger). I find it gives me a similar feel to having a finger looped over the quillons in my rapier hilt, and allows for better tip control than a standard "hammer" grip.

Which reminds me, is anyone making complex hilts for rattan, with quillons, knucklebow, pas de anes, and a ring or three? That is to say, an armored combat basket with proper styling for circa 1580-90 that could be used with a half gauntlet and still legally protect the fingers?

You might check with Stefhan. His website is here http://hessenironworks.blogspot.com/

I imagine he could make one for you if you explain what you want.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:48 am

Edwin wrote:Sir Gaston's story makes me think...

The trigger I have now is tied to the crossguard, and fits over my pointer and middle fingers. The way he described the hammer-trigger, the trigger is much longer, and ends up with the pinky and index finger going through it.

Who's tried which version, and what did you like best?

I'm going to make up 2 triggers, one long one short, and simply tie them to the sword until I know what I like, and then rig up something more permanent.

If you consider the physics involved, there really isn't any question at all about which one actually provides a benefit with regard to striking a blow.

Trigger around the index and middle fingers is a substitute for a lanyard. Leverage is all wrong for being any kind of aid in initiating a blow.

Trigger around the last two fingers uses index and middle fingers as the fulcrum and definitely aids in the initial accelleration of the blow.

I have suspicions that the shape of talwar hilts (that horse head pommel and the over all position of hilt relative to blade) is intended to take advantage of the same principles

Lothar qui et Sigimund · Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:04 am

So with full gaunts, you'd just slip your fingers through the trigger and then through the loop on your gauntlet, making it impossible to drop your sword with your gauntlet on?

Alex Baird · Post by **Alex Baird** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:15 pm

Kilkenny wrote:Trigger around the index and middle fingers is a substitute for a lanyard. Leverage is all wrong for being any kind of aid in initiating a blow.

Dunno about the initiation, but firing a shot with a relatively loose grip and then tightening against the trigger downward does give a decided snap at the point of impact.

Maybe it is simply due to the added strength to the grip that counters some of the backward rotational rebound on the thumb. That would transfer more force from the blow into the target. Or maybe it accelerates the sword tip a bit more just before impact.

Either way, I seem to hit with more pop when using an index/mid trigger than with a hammer grip, plus I don't tend to squeeze my hilt when I can "hang" my sword at guard on the trigger loop. It eliminates that bad habit.

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:19 pm

Alex Baird wrote:
Kilkenny wrote:Trigger around the index and middle fingers is a substitute for a lanyard. Leverage is all wrong for being any kind of aid in initiating a blow.

Dunno about the initiation, but firing a shot with a relatively loose grip and then tightening against the trigger downward does give a decided snap at the point of impact.

Maybe it is simply due to the added strength to the grip that counters some of the backward rotational rebound on the thumb. That would transfer more force from the blow into the target. Or maybe it accelerates the sword tip a bit more just before impact.

Either way, I seem to hit with more pop when using an index/mid trigger than with a hammer grip, plus I don't tend to squeeze my hilt when I can "hang" my sword at guard on the trigger loop. It eliminates that bad habit.

Indicated by to force gauge readings of my post above.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:22 pm

Lothar qui et Sigimund wrote:So with full gaunts, you'd just slip your fingers through the trigger and then through the loop on your gauntlet, making it impossible to drop your sword with your gauntlet on?

I would recommend against that. I can see it being a nasty way to really dislocate fingers when one actually does want to drop the sword rather than having everything wrenched all over the place.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:31 pm

Alex Baird wrote:
Kilkenny wrote:Trigger around the index and middle fingers is a substitute for a lanyard. Leverage is all wrong for being any kind of aid in initiating a blow.

Dunno about the initiation, but firing a shot with a relatively loose grip and then tightening against the trigger downward does give a decided snap at the point of impact.

Maybe it is simply due to the added strength to the grip that counters some of the backward rotational rebound on the thumb. That would transfer more force from the blow into the target. Or maybe it accelerates the sword tip a bit more just before impact.

Either way, I seem to hit with more pop when using an index/mid trigger than with a hammer grip, plus I don't tend to squeeze my hilt when I can "hang" my sword at guard on the trigger loop. It eliminates that bad habit.

What you're describing suggests to me that using the index finger trigger gets you to hold your sword properly and use your hand in your blows the way it is supposed to be used

I hold my swords loosely, thumb and forefinger closed at all times but only gripping at the moment of impact. The rest of the fingers are relaxed except when striking. Because of the relaxed grip, when I pull with the middle, ring and pinky fingers, I've got leverage on the hilt using the thumb and forefinger as the fulcrum. I don't have a firm grip on the swordhilt except for the moment of impact, but I'll pull as hard as I can to snap the hilt into my palm.

I never use a hammer grip on a sword.

Alex Baird · Post by **Alex Baird** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:47 am

Kilkenny wrote:What you're describing suggests to me that using the index finger trigger gets you to hold your sword properly and use your hand in your blows the way it is supposed to be used

Yep. As I said, it eliminates a bad habit for me. Without some sort of fingerhold securing my sword, I find myself gripping too hard.

Kilkenny wrote:I hold my swords loosely, thumb and forefinger closed at all times but only gripping at the moment of impact. The rest of the fingers are relaxed except when striking. Because of the relaxed grip, when I pull with the middle, ring and pinky fingers, I've got leverage on the hilt using the thumb and forefinger as the fulcrum. I don't have a firm grip on the swordhilt except for the moment of impact, but I'll pull as hard as I can to snap the hilt into my palm.

I find that the trigger gives me something to pull hard against at that moment. It moves the fulcrum forward to the trigger's attachment point.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:37 am

Alex Baird wrote:Yep. As I said, it eliminates a bad habit for me. Without some sort of fingerhold securing my sword, I find myself gripping too hard.

I find that the trigger gives me something to pull hard against at that moment. It moves the fulcrum forward to the trigger's attachment point.

Whatever tool helps us to use proper technique is a good tool.

I would really need to see how your trigger was set up to see whether there is any validity to the suggestion that the fulcrum is moved forward.
In my experience, index finger triggers just don't have any leverage whatsoever.

I'm also having some difficulty trying to imagine a situation wherein the lever (your sword) can have a fulcrum anyplace outside of your hand (excepting at impact with a target, which impact point is a fulcrum).

Alex Baird · Post by **Alex Baird** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:53 am

Kilkenny wrote:I'm also having some difficulty trying to imagine a situation wherein the lever (your sword) can have a fulcrum anyplace outside of your hand (excepting at impact with a target, which impact point is a fulcrum).

Mine is a relatively tight loop of 1/2" leather around my index and middle finger, stapled to the rattan under the top clamp holding the basket. Just before the moment of impact, I tighten my grip and pull downward on the trigger toward the pommel. It feels as though the pivot fulcrum is just above my index where the trigger strap goes under the clamp.