To Block, or Not to Block...that is the Question!

[welder]

My only problem with basket hilts is that they are totally gay unless you are some late period british isles type.

Or a late period German type.

Or a late period Italian type.

[Jean Paul de Sens]

[Is it legal to use a buckler/shield with a two handed weapon? I was under the impression you could not. Yet, I could not find anything about it in the rules.

It is my understanding that it is NOT legal. It falls under the section of "passive armour". Meaning a shield is only a shield if you are actively using it as such. Ie, if you are holding a shield and a greatsword together, and blocking with the sheild, it is a shield. However, if you have a shield strapped to your body or hands while using the greatsword all shots to that shield must be taken as if the shield were not there. It has become passive armour.

This rule is basically to stop someone from walking out on the field with 2 scutums strapped to them like a sandwich board sign, making them immune to body and back shots. But, it also addresses people who strap bucklers to there forarms and fight with greatweapons.

The rule is indeed meant to stop people *wearing* a shield instead of carrying it. I don't know the genesis of the rule, but those of sufficient antiquity may recall a person who would fight two swords while wearing a kite shield strapped to their back.[/quote]

I still see people fighting spear with a shield tightly strapped to their arm, and then they have a very light string across the palm of their hand, and they claim they are "controlling" the shield.

They are rules-lawyering. The intent is "you don't get to use a two-handed weapon *and* a shield at the same time."

JP

[Kilkenny]

I still see people fighting spear with a shield tightly strapped to their arm, and then they have a very light string across the palm of their hand, and they claim they are "controlling" the shield.

They are rules-lawyering. The intent is "you don't get to use a two-handed weapon *and* a shield at the same time."

JP

Welllll... yes, that's certainly what our rule says. But - why ? I completely understand that you've got no business hanging a shield over your back off a guige strap and being immune to blows that hit the shield.

But why shouldn't a person have a round shield strapped on their arm while they use a spear with two hands ?

I know we don't allow it. I don't understand why.

[Jean Paul de Sens]

I still see people fighting spear with a shield tightly strapped to their arm, and then they have a very light string across the palm of their hand, and they claim they are "controlling" the shield.

They are rules-lawyering. The intent is "you don't get to use a two-handed weapon *and* a shield at the same time."

JP

Welllll... yes, that's certainly what our rule says. But - why ? I completely understand that you've got no business hanging a shield over your back off a guige strap and being immune to blows that hit the shield.

But why shouldn't a person have a round shield strapped on their arm while they use a spear with two hands ?

I know we don't allow it. I don't understand why.

Game balance. What's to stop me from putting one on each arm? I can make a 1 lb shield that'll deflect a good 30% of the shots coming in.

And it's allowed in some kingdoms. I see it at Pennsic.

[Sinister_Theo]

I never understood the argument against basket blocking. When I basket block the person was not aiming at my hand and they did not hit me. The ownership should be on my opponent to successfully pass my defense and score a telling shot.

When I do basket block I am not intentionally doing it. I am reacting and defending myself. I have heard people take great offense at basket blocking and well, I think there are bigger things to worry about.

[Graedwyn]

Once again, why not just
lift your knee to take a shot
that is aimed at your thigh?

-Graedwyn

[Kilkenny]

I still see people fighting spear with a shield tightly strapped to their arm, and then they have a very light string across the palm of their hand, and they claim they are "controlling" the shield.

They are rules-lawyering. The intent is "you don't get to use a two-handed weapon *and* a shield at the same time."

JP

Welllll... yes, that's certainly what our rule says. But - why ? I completely understand that you've got no business hanging a shield over your back off a guige strap and being immune to blows that hit the shield.

But why shouldn't a person have a round shield strapped on their arm while they use a spear with two hands ?

I know we don't allow it. I don't understand why.

Game balance. What's to stop me from putting one on each arm? I can make a 1 lb shield that'll deflect a good 30% of the shots coming in.

And it's allowed in some kingdoms. I see it at Pennsic.

I've fought against one person who tried to use a shield with his polearm. Vissevald Selkirkson found an illumination showing it and decided he had to try it out. Normally I am doing well to go 50/50 with Vis. With the shield, I won every single bout.

As long as you actually need to block (as opposed to wearing a shield as your breastplate) I'm not really concerned that you've got two shields instead of one, or that your shield is strapped to your arm, not held in your hand.

Game balance ? I don't see it as being nearly as unbalancing as the indestructible shield in the first place.

[Kilkenny]

Once again, why not just
lift your knee to take a shot
that is aimed at your thigh?

-Graedwyn

Maybe someone should have invented knee baskets

















Not.

Gavin

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

That almost makes sense to me except that the hands are not a target area anyway. So if the buckler covers an illegal strike zone, it makes more sense under your statement to not have them.

From my understanding, people wear finger bucklers so they are able to move their fingers independantly (hence why they have finger gauntlets) but with the small bucklers on their hands, be protected nearly the same as wearing clamshell gauntlets.

I have a feeling you are thinking of these as being used for defense, and larger than they are. The ones I have seen are maybe up to 3" dia. and are used purely to help their owners feel safer in their gauntlets. I don't have finger gauntlets, but such is what I have seen on here.

[Sinister_Theo]

Once again, why not just
lift your knee to take a shot
that is aimed at your thigh?

-Graedwyn

One is a violation of safety rule that the SCA has created and another is blocking with an area that is required to be protected.

[Ieuan Gower]

While I try not to block with my basket hilt as a technique I do discover the telltale ductape marks on my basket hilt from time to time Because it is unintentional it doesn't really bother me. Over time I hope that there is less tape to be found on my baskets hilts - in fact I hope to eventually find gauntlets that I am comfortable with and lost the basket hilt altogether.

What does bother me are those people who use their hilts to intentionally gain a defensive advantage. Particularly annoying are those people with d-guards or wire-hilts who can see through their bars. Blocking thrusts with your basket in front of you face as you peer at me past the bars is target substitution - and planned not just incidental.

Just my 2 cents,

Ieuan

[Graedwyn]

One is a violation of safety rule that the SCA has created and another is blocking with an area that is required to be protected.

I do not see the difference.

-Graedwyn

[Graedwyn]

What does bother me are those people who use their hilts to intentionally gain a defensive advantage. Particularly annoying are those people with d-guards or wire-hilts who can see through their bars. Blocking thrusts with your basket in front of you face as you peer at me past the bars is target substitution - and planned not just incidental.
Ieuan

Exactly.

-Graedwyn

[Stefan ap Llewelyn]

Particularly annoying are those people with d-guards or wire-hilts who can see through their bars. Blocking thrusts with your basket in front of you face as you peer at me past the bars is target substitution - and planned not just incidental.
Ieuan

Eeek! I do that when I can!

Sorry, I was not aware it was disallowed(ish), although now I think about it it should have been pretty obvious that it was taking unfair advantage.

One of the minor teething problems with not having a group to train with, I can only make events.

[D.Z.P.]

I believe the reason that most people don't do the leg blocking thing but still do the hand blocking thing is because of the wording of the rule. As far as I can remember the rule uses the leg blocking as an example and many people don't even think of the basket hilt blocking (cause if they meant that they would have said that). I think if we were to get rid of the example then everyone would have to actually read the intent of the rule instead fo just the example.

I have been having this same argument with my local group for some time and I believe that intentional in the key word. If you do it accidentally then I have no heartburn with it. If you do it on purpose then there is a problem.

[Kilkenny]

Once again, why not just
lift your knee to take a shot
that is aimed at your thigh?

-Graedwyn

One is a violation of safety rule that the SCA has created and another is blocking with an area that is required to be protected.

Excuse me. Please explain why you do not acknowledge any and all blows to your hand (whether through a basket hilt or without a basket hilt).


Now that we've established that the reason hand shots are not allowed is a safety rule the SCA has created, let's revisit Graedwyn's question.


Or, we can take a different tack. Please check the rules requiring areas required to be protected. I believe you will find the knees are clearly identified as requiring protection. This leads us back to Graedwyn's question again.

Both hands and knees are disallowed targets for *safety* reasons. Both are required to be protected (for safety reasons). Neither one is properly used to block blows. The SCA marshallate decision that blocking with a basket hilt is not target substitution is a tremendous exercise in contortion, because it is on its face obvious that basket blocking *is* target substitution.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

I think the rule at Pennsic is that a shield HAS to be controlled by a HAND, or it is "armor".

Guys used to fight with a spear and a shield guied off one shoulder. Then the rule came into play, and some added a "hand strap"over the lead hand. Not horribly effective.

But they wat hte rule is written, you CAN had a buckler and a spear or pole, as long as the hand controls the shield, not just strapped ot an arm.

[Baron Alejandro]

To channel Alejandro for a moment...

"Oh Boy!"

I stoled it from Vitus. And yeah.

Ohboy.

[DietrichUhl]

That almost makes sense to me except that the hands are not a target area anyway. So if the buckler covers an illegal strike zone, it makes more sense under your statement to not have them.

From my understanding, people wear finger bucklers so they are able to move their fingers independantly (hence why they have finger gauntlets) but with the small bucklers on their hands, be protected nearly the same as wearing clamshell gauntlets.

I have a feeling you are thinking of these as being used for defense, and larger than they are. The ones I have seen are maybe up to 3" dia. and are used purely to help their owners feel safer in their gauntlets. I don't have finger gauntlets, but such is what I have seen on here.

Given that we do not have size definitions when a finger buckler becomes a regular buckler could be a matter of debate. No I don’t want to debate that. My point was that the system posted supposed that if I used a buckler over or as my hand protection that I had to call the hand shots. If I used clam shells I did not. I found the idea problematic and inconsistent.

-Cheers
-Dietrich

[Sinister_Theo]

I was at one of many tournies with Kieran, now Sir Kieran aka Leo Medii. When we would fight in full gauntlets they became viable targets. Those were the rules set forth of the list. I respected the list as such.

We would fight in a non-SCA event each year and we used more aggressive rules, grappling/punching/kicking/etc. To this day those were the most fun. But we defined and honored the rules of the list.


In the generic sca basket hilts are widely used. Hands are not targets. I am actually thankful for that. I respect the rules of the sca list as well.

If I am ever fortunate enough to fight against any of you that oppose using a basket hilt to block, let me know. I will honor your choice and call any shots thrown at my hand as a good arm shot. If I do basket block while fighting you it is not out of spite but rather out of reflex to avoid getting hit.

[D.Z.P.]

If I am ever fortunate enough to fight against any of you that oppose using a basket hilt to block, let me know. I will honor your choice and call any shots thrown at my hand as a good arm shot.

You are a better man than me. I don't like baskets being used to block because you are in essence putting your hands (a non targetable part of your body) in the way of my blow. I will take a blow to my body that I block with my hand because those are the rules we all play by. But I would never accept a blow thrown at them the same as I will never throw a shot at your hands because I am not allowed to because they are a non targetable part of the body.

One of the issues here is peoples interpretation of the reason for the armor. Gauntlets and basket hilts are not there so you can block with those areas, they are there so you won't get hurt if you accidentally get hit there. Exactly the same reason we are required to wear knee protection.