The Armour Archive

have you had any problems having these passed in the east kingdom?

Why would their be a problem? Do you have one and have a marshal look at it and go "Well, I don't know. Might need some hose on that edge."?
They have rounded edges that will not cause much damage to rattan as required. Not to mention, if the edge does fail, unlike an aluminium shield, will not slice into rattan.

Also, read this topic...
Atzinger Shields in the East

Ahh thanks for the info!, my searchfu was sucking today

there was some issue at crown with my partner and his Vitus shield clone ( I pressed out some so we'd look good at crown), he was bounced. I had to leave before the tourny due to an emergency at home but both the shileds i had brought were the same and would have also failed leaving me shieldless, they are 2 layer of 1/4" plywood, rounded edge, with a layer of med fiberglass mat and west coast system epoxy, 2 layers on the edges. mine have canvas over the edges but he left edges exposed.
the marshall failed it first for not having leather or rubber edging, My friend made them produce the rules and then they had my friend put on his helmet and then jammed the bottom edge into his grill, and failed it on that. they also gave him grief about his mandrake buckler after they failed the heater but in the end ok'd that.

I wish I had of been there to argue this because I was better informed on this shield type than he was, also my alu heater has trim lock and is half again the thickness of the plywood heater and that never had a problem passing

who was the Marshal?

B. Shields:
1. Shields shall be edged with leather or other padding, or constructed in such a way as to
minimize the damage to rattan weapons or other fighters.
1. No bolts, wires, or other objects may project more than 3/8 inch (9 mm) from any part of a
shield without being padded. (Rounded shield bosses are not considered to be projections.)

It looks like your buddy got hosed. Whether or not it was intentional I will not even try to go there.

the marshall failed it first for not having leather or rubber edging, My friend made them produce the rules and then they had my friend put on his helmet and then jammed the bottom edge into his grill, and failed it on that.

I think you can get most shields not edged in siloflex into most standard grill work.

I'd contact the KEM with pics and details.
If he approves, keep the email for tourneys.

Thats sad. I am sorry but lets just put puffy soft round corners on everything in the world.

Lienhart Fischer wrote:the marshall failed it first for not having leather or rubber edging, My friend made them produce the rules and then they had my friend put on his helmet and then jammed the bottom edge into his grill, and failed it on that. they also gave him grief about his mandrake buckler after they failed the heater but in the end ok'd that.

WTF? That marshal clearly does not understand the rules. Scary. He should have elevated it up the food chain. Being Crown there should have been a whole range of marshals, even His Majesty.

The East Kingdom went to Society Minimums a number of years ago. Not everybody remembers that. I remember years ago arguing that if they were so worried about shield egdes, they should be worried about poleyn & couter wings, knight'spurs and combat arrow shafts. That usually stopped the 'your shield edge is too thin arguments" I got back when most shields had thick hose or heavy leather edges and I was using thin gasoline hose instead.

Here are the current SCA rules:

"B. Shields:
1. Shields shall be edged with leather or other padding, or constructed in such a way as to minimize the damage to rattan weapons or other fighters.
1. No bolts, wires, or other objects may project more than 3/8 inch (9 mm) from any part of a shield without being padded. (Rounded shield bosses are not considered to be projections)."

So in my opinion, a Vitus shield is perfectly fine. However due to the wording of 1) above, what "constructed in such a way as to minimize the damage to rattan weapons or other fighters" can be interpreted a variety of ways. Some marshals feel a Vitus shield with rounded but unpadded thin edges fail, some think they are fine. Frankly some fighters now use aluminum shields edged only in the thin automotive firewall hole egding, which has zero padding and does not make the shield edge wide at all.

The good thing about general rules is that they allow for creativity. Unfortunately they also create the potential for disagreements like this one.

The Marshal isn't necessarily wrong for his interpretation, but I would have passed it.

I'd rather see shield rules that list some specific examples of what is legal in order to avoid these sorts of arguments, but I'm sure they were just trying to keep it simple.

Richard Blackmoore KSCA East

I'd rather see shield rules that list some specific examples of what is legal in order to avoid these sorts of arguments, but I'm sure they were just trying to keep it simple.

You'd just be shifting the problem. If the rules would pretty much have to include the phrase 'or equivalent' and now the argument becomes 'what is equivalent' rather 'what is and is not unduly damaging to the rattan'.

B

the marshal was clearly wrong. the thickness argument goes only towards weapon edges.

the "constructed so as to not damage rattan" type thing is to prevent metal edges that are sharp like a sheet of aluminum.

i promise you that i can destroy a fiberglas shield with rattan without doing any damage to the rattan. so the notion that vitus' shield fail based on our rules is silly. nothing wrong with them at all rules wise.

regards
logan

Lienhart Fischer wrote:, My friend made them produce the rules and then they had my friend put on his helmet and then jammed the bottom edge into his grill, and failed it on that.

As a house brother of mine once told a marshall after being told something was illegal because "if your opponnent did this, and you did this, and the planets aligned jussssssst right...":

"Yep. And if frogs had guns, snakes wouldn't fuck with 'em."

Then he found the next highest marshall. All in all, your friend got hosed and should have got a second opinion.

Also, i think the Mandrake buckler was passed simply because it was a name they recignize. I have seem the crappiest things passed because the marshall's recognize the name and trust it based solely on that.

I know some armorers and have some stuff made by well known armorers and if it was not legal, I would rather them say it isn't legal.

-Ramius

Ramius wrote:I have seem the crappiest things passed because the marshall's recognize the name and trust it based solely on that.

That is nothing compared to the sh!t that finds its way onto the field because the person holding/wearing it is wearing a white belt...

...which only further proves that our safety standards incorporate a comfortable margin between what a marshal will pass and what is "safe" (though still begging the question of how many times a shield edge has actually been driven through a grill or eye slot, and how many of those events resulted in injury).

AtA

I was told that the brim of my kettle could fit through a grill
And that if my sallet chinstrap failed and the sallet landed in some soft dirt grill down and stayed that way the fixed tail presented a hazzard to anyone who fell on it.

dukelogan wrote:the marshal was clearly wrong. the thickness argument goes only towards weapon edges.

the "constructed so as to not damage rattan" type thing is to prevent metal edges that are sharp like a sheet of aluminum.

i promise you that i can destroy a fiberglas shield with rattan without doing any damage to the rattan. so the notion that vitus' shield fail based on our rules is silly. nothing wrong with them at all rules wise.

regards
logan

I'm on your side by the way. As far as the jamming through the grill argument, they are usually referring to the last three words of the rule. While I think thin shields are safe, it is clearly intended to protect fighters from being injured in some way by a shield edge:

"as to minimize the damage to rattan weapons or other fighters. "

Let me just put this out there-

Some folks do not look at the intent of a rule before they go off charging to enforce it.

Some folks get roped into being a marshall without having a clear knowledge of the rules of the list.

If I am at an event and you have a problem with an Eastern Marshall, come get me and I will see if I can help you out.

In the end, we should make it our primary responsibility to make sure people are having a good time; A. while being safe and B. not going overboard with inturpretations of the rules of the list.

I am your Champion in this endevor.........

Well the marshal was way off base here.
It being crown there should have been many, many people to appeal to Another Marshal,the Deputy Earl Marshal , even the King, don't be afraid to get a second opinion,or ask that a rule be clarified from hire up.
Be polite,say that you disagree,and ask to get a hold of someone higher up.
It also pays to print out a copy of the Marshals handbook and keep it with your armor.
That way when a marshal "Quotes"a rule you can look it up.
The Marshals are only human and may be misremembering the rule.
If you are right be gracious in your victory.
Finally remember these people are volunteering to help keep us as safe as our inherently unsafe sport can be.
Most of us would much rather be fighting then be the guy calling hold.

I want this marshall publicly flogged.
(okay, not really)

I think the most likely situation is that the marshal is wrong for all the reasons listed above, but lets keep in mind that this was not an Atzinger shield but one made using generally similar construction. It is possible that what we are picturing in our minds, having seen Vitus' stuff, is not quite what was brought onto the field.

That said, I suspect it was perfectly fine and probably at least twice as thick on the edges as any of the car door edged aluminum shields clearly visible in any of the posted pics from the event. As much as the idea that shields need big wads of padding all over them annoys me I could live with it if it were applied uniformly as opposed to in an arbitrary capricious fashion as is suggested here. It is an inexcusable injustice to refuse a fighter the use of a piece of equipment when demonstrably equivalent is in use.

Whichever of these is the case it really ought to be sorted out by the Marshalate and a clarification of the application of the rule in question posted on the main EK site where all fighter with questions can find it.

Leinhart, et al:

Any questions on this have been requested to be forwarded to Master Padraig, KEM East, who does not read the AA, to:
earl-marshal@eastkingdom.org

Thanks.

Stahlgrim wrote: It also pays to print out a copy of the Marshals handbook and keep it with your armor.

I've used the pdf to pocketmod converter to make small, easily transportable versions of documents.