New langes Messer video

[LeeC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38sVdx7nzhQ&fmt=18
Very nice.

[Eamonn MacCampbell]

That was great.....Thanks for the post...

[audax]

That was super cool. Alot of the techniques look exactly like arnis.

I wants a big knife.

[Barnet]

Ghaa I get "This Video is no Longer Available"......

[audax]

Worked okay for me just now.

[bkillian]

My big problem is that these techniques are fine with cooperating , willing opponents, but against a live resisting opponent they would be next to impossible to pull off. Thats the one good thing about the sca, we are trying to actually hit each other.

that was super cool. Alot of the techniques look exactly like arnis.

Yeah but the distance and angles are slightly off. Those angles make a huge difference.

Don't get me wrong , I am super happy that people are trying to resurrect our western martial heritage. I just despise any footage that claims to be combat techniques when in actuality they are just dance moves. Understand that many of the techniques shown "could" be made to work but only as a follow up to a stunning strike or blow, but as shown, I find them lacking.

[audax]

Well, I hear what you are saying. However, there is a lot to be said for being able to practice things so the muscle memory gets developed. It's the same as using an uke in Eastern martial arts. The uke needs to cooperate or they get broken. This does not mean a skilled practicioner can't apply these techniques at full speed or power.

But I love SCA combat for exactly the reasons you mention. I was always a little frustrated with holding my power levels back when I studied karate. Now I get all the power I can stand.

[LeeC]

I dunno, I've fought SCA since 84, and I recognize the techniques as pretty doable in unarmoured combat. I would not be so quick to dismiss Svens work.

Certainly none of these techniques are meant to work in a vacuum.

More messer from a different interpretation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p7anaiPo7o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWISsk0cy74

[Barnet]

Now it is working for me

[Sinister_Theo]

There techniques seem to be very controlled, kudos to there skill at arms. I feel that techniques such as those presented at 100% would be devastating. They are display a very interesting interpretation of fighting on angles and pushing through weapons after a block.

Unarmored vs armored fighting must yield different techniques. I am curious to hear how they would apply techniques to fully armored combatants.

One technique that I never understood was holding a sword by the blade and using it as a club.

[bkillian]

The uke needs to cooperate or they get broken. This does not mean a skilled practicioner can't apply these techniques at full speed or power.

But in Judo( I assume you mean judo because you use the term uke, I could be wrong) the techniques can be applied full force full speed against a resisting opponent. Not to say you are wrong, but this is the same argument I hear from various masters of strip mall-ninja death touch and baby sitting practitioners.

leeC wrote

I dunno, I've fought SCA since 84, and I recognize the techniques as pretty doable in unarmoured combat. I would not be so quick to dismiss Svens work.

I did not dismiss his work. I dismissed the presentation. I am sure his research is valid, But we have to agree that these "moves" are extrapolations from two dimensional illustrations, that in truth could be from the fight book written by the Ashida Kim of their time, filtered through the experiences of the presenter or the presenters instructor. Just think of how many flashy martial arts are just so much dreck. I am not sure why you are telling me how long you have fought in the sca for. My point was that the thing I like about SCA fighting is that it is against an opponent that is actually resisting, not that my participation in it gives me any right to critique a fighting style. I was basing my decisions and opinions of the video clip on my personal Kali and BBJ/MMA experience, nothing more. The only thing the SCA fighting sport has in common with true Medieval Martial arts is that the SCA is medieval-ish, and we are trying to hit each other.

[Kilkenny]

My big problem is that these techniques are fine with cooperating , willing opponents, but against a live resisting opponent they would be next to impossible to pull off. Thats the one good thing about the sca, we are trying to actually hit each other.

that was super cool. Alot of the techniques look exactly like arnis.

Yeah but the distance and angles are slightly off. Those angles make a huge difference.

Don't get me wrong , I am super happy that people are trying to resurrect our western martial heritage. I just despise any footage that claims to be combat techniques when in actuality they are just dance moves. Understand that many of the techniques shown "could" be made to work but only as a follow up to a stunning strike or blow, but as shown, I find them lacking.

Sorry. Missed the claim to be combat techniques. I thought I was watching someone demonstrating their interpretation of several "plays" from a fechtbuch.

And I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how these techniques would be "next to impossible to pull off".

Every technique depends on the opponent's mistake(s). I have yet to see the "no can defense" technique. Rarely there's a "no can defense" opponent - just too everloving fast to react to their move, or so strong that even a proper defensive technique doesn't work.

It's worth remembering that when people are demonstrating a technique, they focus on demonstrating the primary technique, showing it as clearly as possible, without a lot of confusing detail like a partner who is using counter-techniques. In some of the sequences shown, it's fairly apparent that we're shown the primary technique, then a counter-technique.

As to grabbing the blade and using it as a club - Sometimes I wonder about the creativity of the authors. We know plenty of examples of medieval writers, authorities in their fields, running off on what are undeniably flights of fancy, wishful thinking, or just trying to trip up the competition with a bunch of false leads. I am suspicious of some techniques in fechtbuchs falling into these categories. Fiore's polearm with a weighted rope tied to the end being a fine example.

[LeeC]

I only mention my SCA experience to point out that I relate to it. SCA is the only refrence you made before. I don't know why you would make the refrence along with the dance comment in light of the last post.

I cannot speak for Sven, but I am fairly certain like most in his arena he does free sparring that shows all the resistance needed to show unarmored blade play in a combat context. Striking as we do in the SCA in blossfechten would get us called what Leichtenauer termed "A buffle" using force beyond what is needed that leaves us open to a meisterhau.

I often hear people talking about how "They are only working with 2 dimensional images" but that is far from true there are far more descriptive texts than plates covering from the 14th through to the 16th century to crossrefrence over. This covers from the days of the deadly duels to the sporting schulefechten of the age of Meyer.

I am not a student of Lekuchner and messerfechten, but from what I know his demonstration looks to be in line with his longsword work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI8TA

I assure you these longsword techniques work at full speed against resistance. But again, they are showing the techniques "moderately" within the context of a fight. The training pays off though when in earnst.

Theodric, these techniques are for knife fighting, peasant stuff rather than what you would see with armoured combat. Even most of the longsword stuff you see on youtube and such is blossfechten or unarmored and so the blows are very different from what you would use in armour except in a sporting event.

There is one good harnischfechten video I can think of with good technique (although I idon't agree with all of it) but oddly enough they aren't wearing period armour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoDu6vrCcX8

Lots of locks, throws holds and halfswording trying to wedge your blade point into the openings of the plate.

[bkillian]

killkeny,

And I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how these techniques would be "next to impossible to pull off".

Man I so wish we all could sit down and discuss this face to face.
It would be so much easier in person.
My reasoning is such....
All of those techniques work great at half speed, 25 percent will work at three quarters speed and when you get to full speed the functionality of any fine motor movement is dubious.Many of the disengages to cuts to the hand and arm are very fine motor skill movements. I also find the lack of control over the weapon arm of the opponent(via checking the elbow or above ) to be rather odd. In many of the movements the defender is opening him self up for a vicious belly cut as a repost off of his repost ( I know every counter has a counter) AS for them being combat techniques I assume (and perhaps this is my error), that if you are working from something that claims to be a book on how to fight with weapon x (no not wolverine) then you are demonstrating "combat techniques" just as if I were showing a play from a book on playing football I would be making the claim that this is a valid play for the game.
I will say that if we look at these texts as an exploration of what "might" happen in a given circumstance against an untrained or severely lesser skilled opponent then it opens up a whole new view point. Being a Duke I am sure you understand that what will work on lord Joe Novice would not work on say Duke Lucan or Duke Logan. Most modern schools of self defense tend to work (erroneously IMO) on the principle that it is against some one with little to no training. I see no reason that early schools would have thought any different.

[dukelogan]

with some more practice they will be great theater fighters or movie extras.

regards
logan

[bkillian]

LeeC

I only mention my SCA experience to point out that I relate to it. SCA is the only refrence you made before. I don't know why you would make the refrence along with the dance comment in light of the last post.

I was referring to the fact that in the SCA we actually try to hit each other with intent. Nothing more. I often get frustrated that many people in the SCA who fight tend to think they know something about real fighting because of their participation in a sport. It sounded to me as if you were saying that it made you qualified to judge something that is claiming to be a valid life or death fighting technique(see post to Killkeny). If I misinterpreted what you wrote, I apologize. Its just one of my hot buttons. Many SCA fighters do know about real fighting and what is envolved, but many, even some who excel at our sport, do not.

[Christian H. Tobler]

Hello folks,

Striking with the pommel or cross of the sword makes sense in the intended context: usually, in armoured judicial combat. Such blows with the hilt aren't flights of fancy on the part of a single author trying to make his mark - they appear in, literally, dozens of manuscripts. I believe
there are also non-technical references to such strokes in chivalric literature of the time.

The sword's edge is all but useless in such a duel: you can't batter your foe enough to make him surrender as a fellow nobleman might on the field of battle - odds are this is to the death. You certainly aren't cuttnig through the armour. So, such a stroke with the pommel, called variously in German works the "Murder Stroke", "Thunder Stroke", or "Battering Point", would disorder the opponent and allow you to then close further and exploit the gaps in his harness with your point, thrusting using the half-sword grip (right hand on the grip, left hand holding the middle of the blade), essentially turning your sword into a very precisely targeted short spear.

Essentially, using these smashing blows are like turning your longsword into a short poleaxe/hammer. And, it hits scary hard too! Some swords optimized for such duels included spiked quillons and even spiked pommels.

Interestingly though, the German masters don't recommend targeting the head, though they describe techniques defending it. Rather, they advise attacking the leading hand (usually the left for half-sword fighting) or the lead leg. You definitely don't want your hand hit with the hilt, gauntlets or not. Despite the colorful names these pommel strokes had, the idea was to create a momentary advantage against a less armoured area that could be used to create an opening for further attack.

All the best,

Christian

[LeeC]

It sounded to me as if you were saying that it made you qualified to judge something that is claiming to be a valid life or death fighting technique(

And I read your comment as saying the same thing. My point was that I had experience there as well and so I could relate to it, and come to a different conclusion.

I fear I rarely come across well in print, I'm no writer. I have found the longsword equivalent of these techniques work suprisingly well with enough patterning and muscle memory in full speed contact scenarios.

[LeeC]

Good to see you here Christian!
And thanks for the comment on the mortschlag. I've often wondered about some of that myself. And it does seem like he's going a bit over in that video. I assumed to demonstrate.

Bkillian wrote:

My big problem is that these techniques are fine with cooperating , willing opponents, but against a live resisting opponent they would be next to impossible to pull off. Thats the one good thing about the sca, we are trying to actually hit each other.

In my school when performing any of these the "uke" to steal from Japanese terminology, or Patient to steal from Silver is encouraged to thwart the technique randomly to allow the agent to react to that. We also stress any of these techniques are pretty much already responses to a failed first attack. i.e. a bind is what happens when your strike is thwarted.

All this comes from the manuscripts.

[jester]

1) All fighting is fighting and is based on certain common principles. Musashi remarked that one should see the big in the small and the small in the big and I have found him to be correct.
2) I have some doubts about some of the interpretations presented in that video. I'll not address them here. But if you squint at the technique to abstract it, you see the same basic techniques being documented for three hundred years. The elbow push, the overgrip, the wind, dropping the blade behind the opponent's blade, the punta riverso thrust; it's all there and growing more elaborate with each passing year.
3) Intent. Tough one. Very contentious issue. Let's say that there is a strong and ongoing discussion about cutting through the opponent and cutting to the center (with your arms extended and the tip in your opponent's face). I fall into the latter school of thought because I study I.33 and it is damn near explicit about this point. You don't have to cut hard to injure an opponent. I've done test cutting with sharp swords and found that SCA standard technique bludgeoned the hell out of the target and simple cutting (with a slice in the mix) almost effortlessly cut the target.
4) Intent, part two. The lack of resistance on the part of the opponent cannot be understated. This video showed optimal conditions to make technique visible. I'd like to see this stuff in free play. I've seen similar stuff (and had it done to me) done by good students.

[Doug Confere]

with some more practice they will be great theater fighters or movie extras.

regards
logan

I don't want this to turn into an SCA vs. HES/WMA/whathaveyou argument but...seriously man, that was an ignorant statement. They're doing plays from the fechtbuchs, drills. They are studying a system of real combat. People DO fight full speed/full force incorporating the systems put forth in the manuals. Look at AEMMA, for instance. I spent a good portion of a thread just maybe a month ago linking to videos of people fight full speed full force with steel weapons, both in armour and in safety gear trying to simulate out of armour.

[co10Broek]

I will say that if we look at these texts as an exploration of what "might" happen in a given circumstance against an untrained or severely lesser skilled opponent then it opens up a whole new view point.

That reminds me of a story that circulates in the Aikido community. Seems there was a student of OSensei, who claimed to have become immune to a particular wrist lock. After frustrating a number of partners who were supposed to learn the technique, Sensei Ueshiba applied it to the student, when the student didn't yield to the technique OSensei bit him.

Please recognize what you are seeing, you are from a Judo background, then this is like Nage no Kata. This is not a fight or competition (Randori or Shiai).

Jean-Michel

[dukelogan]

jesus doug why cant someone give somebody else a compliment without it becoming suspect? i thought they showed control and the blows looked a lot better than the silly sword moves one typically sees at a play or on the screen. sure, it doesnt hurt that the blows are examples of techniques possibly used in the middle ages but that doesnt change the fact that their actions were swift and their timing looked right to the eye.

why on earth would this devolve into another sca vs wma waste of time? they arent fighting, but rather showing some possible techniques that lead into the single images found in various fighting manuals. that should be clear to anyone watching it. i was impressed enough to think that with some practice they could do well in the acting field. certainly better than anything weve seen recently. well, except iron man of course.

regards
logan

with some more practice they will be great theater fighters or movie extras.

regards
logan

I don't want this to turn into an SCA vs. HES/WMA/whathaveyou argument but...seriously man, that was an ignorant statement. They're doing plays from the fechtbuchs, drills. They are studying a system of real combat. People DO fight full speed/full force incorporating the systems put forth in the manuals. Look at AEMMA, for instance. I spent a good portion of a thread just maybe a month ago linking to videos of people fight full speed full force with steel weapons, both in armour and in safety gear trying to simulate out of armour.

[deflagratio]

Duke Logan I will admit that I got the same vibe Doug did off of your post. I am very happy to see that is not the case and that this is just another instance of the limits of text as a communications tool.

[James B.]

My big problem is that these techniques are fine with cooperating , willing opponents, but against a live resisting opponent they would be next to impossible to pull off. Thats the one good thing about the sca, we are trying to actually hit each other.

Yes but none of this stuff works with sticks; you need a flat blade. Also this is just a kata for knife fighting you have to put the pieces together yourself like any other martial art. You practice the moves to understand the slight dynamics of movement in this fighting style.

why on earth would this devolve into another sca vs wma waste of time? they arent fighting, but rather showing some possible techniques that lead into the single images found in various fighting manuals.

There is more in the manuals than a single image; likely a set of 3 images and a written explanation of what to do like almost every other manual.

[LeeC]

Here is one translation of one of the shorter Lekuchner manuscripts.

It is only one, and keep in mind that it falls back on the student haveing a previous knowledge that gives them a framework to understand some of the more cryptic terms.

[Doug Confere]

showing some possible techniques that lead into the single images found in various fighting manuals. ... i was impressed enough to think that with some practice they could do well in the acting field.

This all comes across as a thinly veiled insult. Can you tell me what you think about WMA/HES? Is it only good for stage fighting and acting, and not useful as a real martial art? Is it not really fighting? Or do you think it is a legitimate combat system?

[audax]

The uke needs to cooperate or they get broken. This does not mean a skilled practicioner can't apply these techniques at full speed or power.

But in Judo( I assume you mean judo because you use the term uke, I could be wrong) the techniques can be applied full force full speed against a resisting opponent. Not to say you are wrong, but this is the same argument I hear from various masters of strip mall-ninja death touch and baby sitting practitioners.

leeC wrote

I dunno, I've fought SCA since 84, and I recognize the techniques as pretty doable in unarmoured combat. I would not be so quick to dismiss Svens work.

I did not dismiss his work. I dismissed the presentation. I am sure his research is valid, But we have to agree that these "moves" are extrapolations from two dimensional illustrations, that in truth could be from the fight book written by the Ashida Kim of their time, filtered through the experiences of the presenter or the presenters instructor. Just think of how many flashy martial arts are just so much dreck. I am not sure why you are telling me how long you have fought in the sca for. My point was that the thing I like about SCA fighting is that it is against an opponent that is actually resisting, not that my participation in it gives me any right to critique a fighting style. I was basing my decisions and opinions of the video clip on my personal Kali and BBJ/MMA experience, nothing more. The only thing the SCA fighting sport has in common with true Medieval Martial arts is that the SCA is medieval-ish, and we are trying to hit each other.

Do not dis my death-mall touch! I am a master of seventeen forms of ninja stripping!

I keed, I keed....

I've only done a little judo, but we used the term uke in kyokushin. When we were practicing we didn't want to kill each other or destroy each others joints. The uke usually cooperated so the person practicing (and I totally can't remember the nomenclature) could learn the move. We or at least I knew that it would be much more difficult to apply the move to a resisting opponent and that of necessity it would need to follow behind a set up move of some sort.

[bkillian]

There is more in the manuals than a single image; likely a set of 3 images and a written explanation of what to do like almost every other manual.

And....
It doesn't matter how many explanations or pictures the manuals have. It is still trying to learn how to fight from a book. You can't learn to box or do BJJ from a book . You can't learn to fence from a book either. Sure books get written and can be a good reference for a person studying under an experienced coach,but the timing and the subtleties of the art just are not there in the printed form. It can be a road map,but the map is not the territory.The truth is we will never know for sure until we look a man in harness in the eye and strike him through with sword. Until then its just supposition. With boxing people get knocked out, with bjj people get broken (or tap before they do), and in judo people get thrown down.It is in competition that the proof that these techniques work lay. With weapons like swords and knives very few people have really put the techniques to the test. Otherwise all we are doing is playing tag. If we want to look at it as a sport with rules and codes of conduct and nothing more then I am all for it. In fact I laud and applaud it.Otherwise its all theory and no proof.

[bkillian]

Do not dis my death-mall touch! I am a master of seventeen forms of ninja stripping!

[Christian H. Tobler]

Hello Brian,

This is true, which is why there are hundreds of people around the globe working through this material. It's the same kind of experimental archeology that goes into recreating the armourer's art or the reproduction of period clothing.

As for 'playing tag', well, everyone doing any kind of recreational fighting is doing that to one point or another. Since no one goes home from events in coffins, there's obviously a level of contrivance necessary to do this safely.

Many such contrivances were in place for period tournaments or bouts among 15th and 16th century fencing guilds. Without rules, which must of necessity affect the 'lethal realism' of the art, people die.

Now, the word 'manual' can be misleading in describing the surviving material. In general, earlier works are records of techniques and principles, not a pedagogical plan for learning the basics. They assume much too: that you know how to cut with a sword, develop power, etc. Those are things that would've been givens amongst adults of the fighting class in a sword-wielding culture.

All the best,

Christian

[James B.]

Brian the same can be said about any sword martial art; when was the last time a sword duel happened?

All the basics are there and really there is little difference from other still living marital arts out there.

Grappling in historical manuals is not that far removed from BJJ; dagger defenses are nearly the same in many modern martial arts as they are in the books. Body mechanics don't change over time.

While we are on the subject of BJJ; it is different than Jiu Jitsu because the Gracie’s took the basics and played with new ideas and tried it out; that is exactly what the HWMA community does.

[LeeC]

There is more in the manuals than a single image; likely a set of 3 images and a written explanation of what to do like almost every other manual.

And....
It doesn't matter how many explanations or pictures the manuals have. It is still trying to learn how to fight from a book. You can't learn to box or do BJJ from a book . You can't learn to fence from a book either. Sure books get written and can be a good reference for a person studying under an experienced coach,but the timing and the subtleties of the art just are not there in the printed form. It can be a road map,but the map is not the territory.The truth is we will never know for sure until we look a man in harness in the eye and strike him through with sword. Until then its just supposition. With boxing people get knocked out, with bjj people get broken (or tap before they do), and in judo people get thrown down.It is in competition that the proof that these techniques work lay. With weapons like swords and knives very few people have really put the techniques to the test. Otherwise all we are doing is playing tag. If we want to look at it as a sport with rules and codes of conduct and nothing more then I am all for it. In fact I laud and applaud it.Otherwise its all theory and no proof.

The same could be said though for all but the most stringently conservative kenjutsu schools, and even those in some ways.

You can look at the "living tradition" as a positive thing or you can look at the fechtbuchs as fighting techniques from men who did actually live and die by them caught like a fly in amber instead of the slow drift we have seen in EMA through "Living tradition". That said I have no intent, or interest in killing someone with a sword. This aspect seems faecetious at best.

We do it because we desire to, and say what you will, you seem to be very persistantly trying to take a "Look at the neat video" and turn it into showing your authority to declare what is valid and what is not.

I find WMA to have as much martial value as any EMA equivalent, more than some.
I find it to have both historical and cultural value.
I find it to be fun, and stimulating to both mind and body.
I see no reason really for your arguments.

[bkillian]

James B....

I agree Nothing new here. I just want absolute clarity about what is being presented.

Christian H. Tobler...

Many such contrivances were in place for period tournaments or bouts among 15th and 16th century fencing guilds. Without rules, which must of necessity affect the 'lethal realism' of the art, people die.

Which is why I approve of it as a sport derived from period sources, not as a recreation of mortal combat... (geesh, how that movie ruined that phrase)

As for 'playing tag', well, everyone doing any kind of recreational fighting is doing that to one point or another. Since no one goes home from events in coffins, there's obviously a level of contrivance necessary to do this safely.

True, no argument from me.

[Doug Confere]

There is more in the manuals than a single image; likely a set of 3 images and a written explanation of what to do like almost every other manual.

And....
It doesn't matter how many explanations or pictures the manuals have. It is still trying to learn how to fight from a book. You can't learn to box or do BJJ from a book . You can't learn to fence from a book either. Sure books get written and can be a good reference for a person studying under an experienced coach,but the timing and the subtleties of the art just are not there in the printed form. It can be a road map,but the map is not the territory.The truth is we will never know for sure until we look a man in harness in the eye and strike him through with sword. Until then its just supposition. With boxing people get knocked out, with bjj people get broken (or tap before they do), and in judo people get thrown down.It is in competition that the proof that these techniques work lay. With weapons like swords and knives very few people have really put the techniques to the test. Otherwise all we are doing is playing tag. If we want to look at it as a sport with rules and codes of conduct and nothing more then I am all for it. In fact I laud and applaud it.Otherwise its all theory and no proof.

I take it you're not particularly "in the know" as far as the WMA community goes. Because they do fight with them. Why is it that it is commonly thought by SCA folk that all WMA guys do is do the plays in slow practice and nothing else?

My apologies if you aren't SCA, but you have "Atlantia" in your signature, so I assumed.