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Early period guys in bazubands...
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:03 pm
by Vitus von Atzinger
What are the documentation sources? Access to Byzantium?
Byzantine Bazuband Documentation
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:19 pm
by Lucan Dux
There is no Romano/Byzantine Bazuband documentation that I am aware of.
It is probably a Scadianism that is excused as "feasable" and is encouraged due to geographical and cultural proximities.
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:29 pm
by D. Sebastian
Armour requirements vs authenticity.
The baz has a nice low profile that appeals to the "unarmoured kit" much more than a cop.
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:29 pm
by Vladimir
That's why I use them.
I tried using hidden arm protection and hidden elbow with exposed bracer and was not happy with either.
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:33 pm
by Lucan Dux
D. Sebastian wrote:Armour requirements vs authenticity.
The baz has a nice low profile that appeals to the "unarmoured kit" much more than a cop.
That too!
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:33 pm
by Forkbeard
I bought my first set years back because Adam Berry (WMA) was selling them and they looked sweet, and protected against rattan.
Is there any evidence for a hard cop over the elbow in the Norse world, in bazuband form or otherwise? I would think if you were lucky enough to have maille, that's what would be covering your elbow. Better than fabric!
I'm thinking about a super low profile plastic elbow covered inside and out in the same fabric as my bocksten tunic, so hopefully from 10 feet you will see nothing.
Ulfr
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:44 pm
by justus
I haven't seen anything in 12th century paintings stone or glass work that would lead me to believe that my bauzbands are historically correct. ( I think my shynbalds are pretty plausible since there there are gutter greaves and primitive knee cops in evidence.)
Like everyone else has said, they can be very low profile and barely show under my sleeves. With the added benefit that they don't tear my sleeves up like my old metal floating elbows did. I also use to get tagged in the space between my floating cop and my vambrace.
-Justus
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:52 pm
by Mord
Lucan Dux wrote:D. Sebastian wrote:Armour requirements vs authenticity.
The baz has a nice low profile that appeals to the "unarmoured kit" much more than a cop.
That too!
yup.
I have a vague memory of seeing bazubands in Robert Elgoods "Islamic Armour."
Mord.
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:12 pm
by freiman the minstrel
Stones Glossary lists bazus from the fifteenth century onwards, if I recall correctly.
I bought them because they were supposed to be concealable, and they are, but I have never gotten around to making the correct tunic.
f
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:04 pm
by InsaneIrish
D. Sebastian wrote:Armour requirements vs authenticity.
The baz has a nice low profile that appeals to the "unarmoured kit" much more than a cop.
What he said.
to my knowledge Bazubands were middle eastern in origin starting around the 15th century and made from steel.
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:16 pm
by hrolf
mine are purely a function of meeting sca protection requirements at low weight.
in my Copious Free Time, i will make a fighting tunic that has sleeves tailored to cover them.
in my Copious Free Money, my theoretical mail hauberk will cover them, too.
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:31 pm
by D. Sebastian
You'd find baz's in late Persian, Rus, and 21st Cent SCAdian.
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:59 pm
by Christophe de Frisselle
justus wrote:I also use to get tagged in the space between my floating cop and my vambrace.
-Justus
Some years ago, I saw Vicount Sir Karl VonSussen do that very thing to Baron Sir Stephen Grandchamp. Sir Stephen got to go to the ER for that. His own ER at the hospital where he works as an RN, from an event on his own property. He came back with Vicodin, a chipped Ulna, and his arm in a sling. He served cheese the rest of the afternoon.
I wear a leather pair I made. I like not having that gap also. The are a nice low profile, unobtrusive, and all-in-one solution for lower arm and elbow defence.
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:45 pm
by Edwin
I have bazubands for the simple necessity of protecting my elbow while have minimal restriction on motion.
Tonight I resumed work on my hidden-bazubands.
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:50 pm
by justus
Christophe de Frisselle wrote:justus wrote:I also use to get tagged in the space between my floating cop and my vambrace.
-Justus
Some years ago, I saw Vicount Sir Karl VonSussen do that very thing to Baron Sir Stephen Grandchamp. Sir Stephen got to go to the ER for that. His own ER at the hospital where he works as an RN, from an event on his own property. He came back with Vicodin, a chipped Ulna, and his arm in a sling. He served cheese the rest of the afternoon.
I wear a leather pair I made. I like not having that gap also. The are a nice low profile, unobtrusive, and all-in-one solution for lower arm and elbow defence.
I got tagged there twice in the same week, same guy too must have been the way he threw his off side. I had to stop fighting for the night and had a big goose egg for a few days.
-Justus
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:25 am
by Sinister_Theo
I have yet to find a better means of protection while adding a 'look' that does not distract from the rest of the kit. I don't feel some of the hidden arm armour provides enough elbow protection. With my new horsemens length hauberk it might provide enough protection so that I can go with a lower profile elbow.
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:08 pm
by Niall Mor
Though I don't know the rationalization for viking use, there is some historical context for bazubands in India. I believe they appear in the 11-12th centuries.
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:16 am
by Thorir Gunnerson
hmmm I knew I had some references for these ....
Not much but it might help.
From
Medieval warfare source book: Volume 2: Christian Europe and its neighbors ISBN: 1-85409-307-x
page38 wrote:Chapter I. BYZANTINES, PERSIANS AND MUSLIMS (400-750)
Limb Defences
Romano-Byzantine limb defences, such as gonuklaria (greaves or chausses for infantry), periknemides (vambraces for infantry), and keiromankia (gauntlets ) were probably made in laminated and splinted forms. Fragments of splinted limb defences, probably dating from 8th century, have been found in Byzantine-influenced regions of the Caucasus. The bazabanag - later called bãzùband - (arm protection) and sirinapa (leg defence) of Sassanian Iran would seem to have been of sophisticated construction, probably in the laminated style shown in great detail on 6th- to early 9th-century Transoxianan wall paintings. A remarkable pair of plated gauntlets is also said to have been unearthed in late Sassanian context, though this dating remains dubious. Splinted and laminated limb defences, particularly for the arms but sometimes also the legs, remains more typical of Transoxiana than Iran and the Middle East. Arm-defences appear Ramon-Byzantine as well as Sassanian art and literature, and were occasionally mentioned in early Arab-Islamic sources, but they seem to have declined in popularity during the 7th and 8th centuries.
page78 wrote:Chapter II. CHRISTIAN-MUSLIM CONFRONTATION (750-1050)
Limb Defences
Limb protections were rare, though shoulder, arm and leg peices were among the remarkable 8th-century Byzantine or Khazar finds from the Black Sea coast. Byzantine sources mention cheiropsella for arms while a little later quilted [manikia[/i] or manikellia seem to have been laced to the upper arms or shoulders of a ceremonial quilted [epilorikon[/i]. metal-covered leather guantlets were issued to specialist troops such as standered-bearers, and vambraces-like protections for the lower arms were clearly sued in 9th- 10th-century Muslim armies. These were usually called bãzìkand in Persian areas or [saçad in Arab areas.
page167 wrote:Chapter IV. CRUSADER, REQONQUISTA AND COUNTER-CRUSADE (1050-1400)
Limb Defences
:SNIP:
A rigid vambrace for the lower arm now came into fashion as a result of Sino-Mongol influence, this still being called saçad in Arab areas, a bãzùband in Persian-speaking regions and qoluq in 14th-century Turkey.
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:45 am
by Kilian_the_warlike
The way I like to rationalize it, is that they are vaugely like shovel/knee greaves, so someone must have at one point and time said "you know, if we make these smaller..."
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:24 pm
by St. George
15 years ago, I think that shovel greaves and bazubands provided an adequate rationalization for early period personas. In the last few years, as we have become both more educated as to the appearance of armor, and these items have become significantly more prevalent, they disappear into the background less and less, much in the same way that "Viking Kidney Belts" seemed OK in 1993 but look completely wrong today. Today they just look completely out of place and wrong in most instances of their use.
g-