How is 1/2 inch progressive give defined?

[Aaron]

Considering Atenveldt weapons get pretty harsh scrutiny everywhere else, I'd say as a Kingdom our standards are pretty lax.

But we also have a saying in Atenveldt: "Excessive force isn't"

Or my personal favorite: "Definition of Excessive Force: Your Armour is insufficiently padded"

God Bless you!

And no, you didn't sneeze.

-Aaron

[Diglach Mac Cein]

I must be the luckiest guy on the Archive, marshall-wise.

In 20 years, the number of times I've had an experience with a Marshall that was so bad that it stuck in my memory is less than 5.

As a fighter, I appreciate that the marshall at an event are volunteering their time to get us on the field. I do my best to make sure my weapons and armor are in good repair. If I make something new, I get a marshal to inspect it BEFORE I take it to an event.

If the Marshall bounces something, I ask exactly why, and what they would like to see done to fix it. If I really disagree, I ask if we can get another marshall's opinion (rarely needed). I don't get combative with them - that never helps - and if the marshall is wrong, I try to help them learn from it, not bust their chops.


As a marshall, I try to work with the fighters to ENHANCE their fighting experience. On the field and in inspections.

Occasionally, that means failing a weapon - but when I DO fail a weapon or armor, I always try to not only provide a reason, but also a plan and means for the fighter to fix the problem. Most thrist tips I've failed fail due to age/abuse - I carry foam and tape with me in a kit, and give it to them so they can fix it.

If the fighter is in disagreement with me, I listen to their reasoning, and if I don'tagree, offer to kick it up the chain of command for appeal - which I do, with them as part of the discussion.


Sometimes, a little collaberative effort solves the problems.




.

[InsaneIrish]

I must be the luckiest guy on the Archive, marshall-wise.

In 20 years, the number of times I've had an experience with a Marshall that was so bad that it stuck in my memory is less than 5.

As a fighter, I appreciate that the marshall at an event are volunteering their time to get us on the field. I do my best to make sure my weapons and armor are in good repair. If I make something new, I get a marshal to inspect it BEFORE I take it to an event.

If the Marshall bounces something, I ask exactly why, and what they would like to see done to fix it. If I really disagree, I ask if we can get another marshall's opinion (rarely needed). I don't get combative with them - that never helps - and if the marshall is wrong, I try to help them learn from it, not bust their chops.


As a marshall, I try to work with the fighters to ENHANCE their fighting experience. On the field and in inspections.

Occasionally, that means failing a weapon - but when I DO fail a weapon or armor, I always try to not only provide a reason, but also a plan and means for the fighter to fix the problem. Most thrist tips I've failed fail due to age/abuse - I carry foam and tape with me in a kit, and give it to them so they can fix it.

If the fighter is in disagreement with me, I listen to their reasoning, and if I don'tagree, offer to kick it up the chain of command for appeal - which I do, with them as part of the discussion.


Sometimes, a little collaberative effort solves the problems.




.

god bless you Dilan

And no you didn't sneeze



As a marshal my job is not exactly easy, especially when I get a combative fighter that wants to argue with me. I have been wrong before and immediately appologize and move on.

As you said above almost ever weapon I fail is due to age and abuse of the weapon. very rarely do I fail a weapon because it was made wrong. And as you said, if the fighter REALLY pushes his case, I point him/her to the MIC and let them plead their case to them. If the MIC says go with it, fine.

[Duke Areus]

Good eye, point taken.
So perhaps to rectify this situation (of marshals not wishing to face what they deem to be an unsafe weapon), is it possible we as a society could perhaps revisit the standards for Marshall Authorization?

More specifically, is it feasable for us to instill a "No Wuss" clause? If you are a weenie, and you think my perfectly legal thrusting tip is too hard for your precious wittle self to get hit by, you get your Auth pulled and I get my weapons inspected by someone who isn't afraid to get hit.

So, anyone that disagrees with YOUR interpretation of the rules is a puss?

Well.....only mostly.

[Mac Thamhais]

my interpretation has been to strap on a 1/2" of padding for the tip and hope for the best.

too stiff? go bang it on something hard and bring it back.

too soft? strap it down tighter.

Now this makes good sense. Would that everyone (marshals and fighters alike) could just abide by this rule and leave it at that.

[SERPENTDUKE:)]

Mac Thamhais thanks for pointing that out to me.
Now I have something to lobby against when the new SEM takes office.

[Mac Thamhais]

Mac Thamhais thanks for pointing that out to me.
Now I have something to lobby against when the new SEM takes office.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is it about this that you would be lobbying against? It seems to be a pretty fair rule to my eye, intended to avoid those folks who want to abuse the rules without actually breaking them. Gives the Marshal a valid reason to bounce an unsafe weapon even if it is TECHNICALLY legal.

Of course, this rule too can be abused, and the occasional Marshal on a power trip might bounce a perfectly acceptable weapon for any little trivial infraction they can trump up just because they can, but by and large, the rule seems to have been put there for a valid reason.

Of course that's just my $0.02 and YMMV.

[Duke Areus]

Mac Thamhais thanks for pointing that out to me.
Now I have something to lobby against when the new SEM takes office.

He has already stepped up. When you start that quest, tell me brother, I am on board!

[Duke Areus]

Mac Thamhais thanks for pointing that out to me.
Now I have something to lobby against when the new SEM takes office.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is it about this that you would be lobbying against? It seems to be a pretty fair rule to my eye, intended to avoid those folks who want to abuse the rules without actually breaking them. Gives the Marshal a valid reason to bounce an unsafe weapon even if it is TECHNICALLY legal.

Of course, this rule too can be abused, and the occasional Marshal on a power trip might bounce a perfectly acceptable weapon for any little trivial infraction they can trump up just because they can, but by and large, the rule seems to have been put there for a valid reason.

Of course that's just my $0.02 and YMMV.

I get what you are saying, and that would be really important if we were actually using steel or something dangerous.

We are using foam covered bendy sticks. For the most part, with very few exceptions, I really don't think it is possible to make an "Unsafe" weapon.

Weapon under 1 1/4"? Bounce it.

Spear head not 2" (3" fiber)? Bounce it.

Foam Head doesn't give AT ALL? Bounce it.

Metal on the striking surface? Bounce it.

Transmission fluid soaked 8 foot pike maul that weighs 25 lbs? Bounce it.


We should have to follow the written rules and spelled out technical specifications, period. Because that is what we have to go by when we are spending our time and money building these things.

[InsaneIrish]

We should have to follow the written rules and spelled out technical specifications, period. Because that is what we have to go by when we are spending our time and money building these things.

Exactly, and honestly I think you are railing on an issue, that really is kind of moot.

Just this past weekend, I was MIC of the largest tournament in Calontir, total 104 fighters and I inspected something like 80+ weapons. I bounced maybe 5. ALL because of degredation of thrusting tips. None because of making them wrong.

Honestly I don't see any weapons that are inherantly "dangerous" or made wrong. I DO see weapons that once were made right, but after months/years of use have collapsed to the point of not abiding by the spirit of our rules.

Duke Phelan, do you honestly have a continuing problem getting your weapons passed the marshals? Or is this really an issue that is stuck in your craw and not one that constently affects you?

[Mac Thamhais]

Just this past weekend, I was MIC of the largest tournament in Calontir, total 104 fighters and I inspected something like 80+ weapons. I bounced maybe 5. ALL because of degredation of thrusting tips. None because of making them wrong.

Honestly I don't see any weapons that are inherantly "dangerous" or made wrong. I DO see weapons that once were made right, but after months/years of use have collapsed to the point of not abiding by the spirit of our rules.

Okay, so with that said, why are we using thrusting tips (at least on single handed weapons) at all? I mean, if the pokey end of a weapon is cut off square, and its edges rounded, why does it even need to be squishy? Especially exactly this squishy with this exactly kind of material. We get hit with bare rattan all the time from the striking surfaces of our weapons. So does thrusting need to be any different?

Just asking.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Flex.

A straight on thrust, the rattan doesn't flex.

And, we don't typically have rules becuase of guys who are in the top 25% of the fighter population - it's for the bottom 25%.

As I've said before, I know fighters I would trust to enter a tournament with a running chain saw and do it safely. I also know fighters who are just this side of needing to be covered in bubble wrap and limited to swords made solely of camp foam...


.



.

[Broadway]

Are these bottom 25% fighters miraculously able to hit something if their weapon is somehow illegal?

You could give the bottom 25% a real sword as far as I'm concerned...

And, we don't typically have rules becuase of guys who are in the top 25% of the fighter population - it's for the bottom 25%.

[InsaneIrish]

Okay, so with that said, why are we using thrusting tips (at least on single handed weapons) at all? I mean, if the pokey end of a weapon is cut off square, and its edges rounded, why does it even need to be squishy? Especially exactly this squishy with this exactly kind of material. We get hit with bare rattan all the time from the striking surfaces of our weapons. So does thrusting need to be any different?

Just asking.

I see it like this, our "padding" provides a balancing factor to our swing/thrust. If the basis of our game at its core is the single handed swing from a sword then that should be our bench mark on strength/force blow calibration.

Example, if I swing a sword at you and hit with a sufficient force that is is "good" then by natural progression a thrust with the same power should be "good" as well? Correct?

However, because of physics a thrust transfers more force through the weapon to the target, so a thrust of the same power as a swing would be excessive.

Now, yes, to counter act this you "pull the shot". But, there are many other factors involved, pulling the shot is not that easy, experience, range, precision and even opponents motion all need to calculated in split second timing. Not to mention shifting power generation from high to very low so fast and changing it up between shots is hard to do.

I see thrusting TIPS as a "fudge factor" allowing us to thrust closer to our regular power level without having to pull the shot so much. They also allow fighters to not have to be so precise with their power on the thrust. These tips also help prevent injury if the opponent decides to step in when you thrust, thus increasing the power of your thrust without your knowledge.

Are thrusting tips really NEEDED? probably not, are they a good IDEA? absolutely.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

No, but if they DO hit someone, our weapon reg create a little forgiveness for thier lack of precise control, due to lack of practice or experience.



.

[Aaron]

A straight on thrust, the rattan doesn't flex.

Steel flexes when swung, but doesn't for a straight on thrust.

Any padding on weapons gives an unfair advantage to the standard sword-and-board fighter.

-Aaron

[InsaneIrish]

A straight on thrust, the rattan doesn't flex.

Steel flexes when swung, but doesn't for a straight on thrust.

Any padding on weapons gives an unfair advantage to the standard sword-and-board fighter.

-Aaron

1. steel flexes if you hit on the flat

2. how is it unfair?

[Aaron]

The padding takes away the advantage a thrust or mass weapon should have.

-Aaron

[InsaneIrish]

The padding takes away the advantage a thrust or mass weapon should have.

-Aaron

How? Are you actually TRYING to kill someone? Are you actually TRYING to stick the rattan stick THROUGH your opponent? Are you TRYING to break someone's bones?

[Aaron]

Of course not.

But if the padding so retards the shot that it can be called "light" when it would have been "excessive" without the padding, it's taking advantage of safety to generate a false victory.

The weapons are supposed to act like weapons. Either (a) no padding on weapons and a shot is a shot or (b) a padded weapon will be considered "good" for a mere touch.

As we are now, shots that could cripple with a real weapon are barely felt due to the padding. The playing field should be level.

With respect,

-Aaron

[Nissan Maxima]

I thought the half inch progressive give was suppose to be the helmet.

[InsaneIrish]

how about the indestructable shield?
fighting from your knees?
continuing to fight one armed?
No armour as worn standard?
no full face helmet proof against thrusts?


Our game is FULL of inaccuracies and safety regulations.

[Broadway]

It is level. Nobody is stopping you from fighting with the superior sword and board combo.

As we are now, shots that could cripple with a real weapon are barely felt due to the padding. The playing field should be level.

[Aaron]

Granted, those are issues. Any one of them on any given day would put me into a tizzy.

We dress up in armour. We hit each other. We have fun.

I'm getting to annoyed with the details.

Thank you for helping me out with this.

-Aaron

[Aaron]

It is level. Nobody is stopping you from fighting with the superior sword and board combo.

As we are now, shots that could cripple with a real weapon are barely felt due to the padding. The playing field should be level.

Wrist injuries due to years of judo. Fighting sword-and-board would cripple me -- I wouldn't have to worry about my opponent. Oddly enough, I can do sword-and-buckler due to body mechanics.

With respect,

-Aaron

[Diglach Mac Cein]

I've never had a someone call a thrust light becuase the tip was padded. I've never SEEN it happen, to think of it.

IMO if you can't get a "kill" with a padded thrust tip in SCA combat, either you messed up the thrust or your opponent messed up the registration.

In either case, practice, thrust clean and hard - that usually solves either problem.

As far as mass weapons, I've seen maces that you could use as a pillow for a baby's crib without worry. In THAT case - yeah the padding is at fault - becuase the weapon was built improperly. Besides, between clackers and kong-maces, that problem has pretty much gone away.


I just don't see the issue as you've stated it.

Of course not.

But if the padding so retards the shot that it can be called "light" when it would have been "excessive" without the padding, it's taking advantage of safety to generate a false victory.

The weapons are supposed to act like weapons. Either (a) no padding on weapons and a shot is a shot or (b) a padded weapon will be considered "good" for a mere touch.

As we are now, shots that could cripple with a real weapon are barely felt due to the padding. The playing field should be level.

With respect,

-Aaron

[Duke Areus]

I thought the half inch progressive give was suppose to be the helmet.

HAHAHAHA!!!!!

Exactly!!!!

[Adamo]

Are these bottom 25% fighters miraculously able to hit something if their weapon is somehow illegal?

You could give the bottom 25% a real sword as far as I'm concerned...

The problem there is that the bottom 25% of fighters are most likely to hit you in the bottom 25% of the leg. Getting hit in the ankle is always a bit surprising.

Adam

[Duke Areus]

We should have to follow the written rules and spelled out technical specifications, period. Because that is what we have to go by when we are spending our time and money building these things.

Exactly, and honestly I think you are railing on an issue, that really is kind of moot.

Just this past weekend, I was MIC of the largest tournament in Calontir, total 104 fighters and I inspected something like 80+ weapons. I bounced maybe 5. ALL because of degredation of thrusting tips. None because of making them wrong.

Honestly I don't see any weapons that are inherantly "dangerous" or made wrong. I DO see weapons that once were made right, but after months/years of use have collapsed to the point of not abiding by the spirit of our rules.

Duke Phelan, do you honestly have a continuing problem getting your weapons passed the marshals? Or is this really an issue that is stuck in your craw and not one that constently affects you?

A:
The issue isn't moot, because something can be done about it. Rules can be changed.


B:
I completely agree with bouncing old trashed weapons. and it is covered in the rules that weapons must be in good repair.


C:
Honestly, I almost NEVER have a weapon fail, maybe twice in 12 years. But I do CONTINUALLY have to advocate others due to overzealous marshalling. Granted, this is almost 100% out of Kingdom, or at Estrella with Non-Atenveldt marshals. As I've said before, our marshals don't really harsh on anything other than hard written rules failures.

I remember about 5 years back at a Great Western, a Caidian marshal failed about 70-80 Atenveldt spears and about 50 other weapons until I (crown prince at the time) The King, and the Aten Earl Marshal went up there and straightened the situation out. Now, funny thing is most Caidian marshals are as lax as Aten ones, but this guy just had a hair up his ass, and was venting it out on our weapons. Which is why that rule needs to be fixed, to keep guys like that from ruining someones day.

D:
Not really sure why you are taking a tone with me. Did I do something to offend you?

[Broadway]

That's what my stainless steel greaves are for...

Are these bottom 25% fighters miraculously able to hit something if their weapon is somehow illegal?

You could give the bottom 25% a real sword as far as I'm concerned...

The problem there is that the bottom 25% of fighters are most likely to hit you in the bottom 25% of the leg. Getting hit in the ankle is always a bit surprising.

Adam

[Adamo]

That's what my stainless steel greaves are for...

Uh...
...
...
elitist!

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Is it the rule that needed "fixed", or the marshal in question? I mean, unless the are NO rules, then any rule can be abused by someone with "a hair uptheir ass."

I remember about 5 years back at a Great Western, a Caidian marshal failed about 70-80 Atenveldt spears and about 50 other weapons until I (crown prince at the time) The King, and the Aten Earl Marshal went up there and straightened the situation out. Now, funny thing is most Caidian marshals are as lax as Aten ones, but this guy just had a hair up his ass, and was venting it out on our weapons. Which is why that rule needs to be fixed, to keep guys like that from ruining someones day.

[don]

Not wanting to piss anyone off, but a thrusting tip is a good thing if one fighter has minimal armour for what ever reason or a gap is found in the armour (how would a GOOD/over powered thrust to the side of the rib cage feel).

A few years back, I started a shit storm in regards to some rules relating to bucklers/round shields by asking where a targe would fit in. (at the time; bucklers where considered useless after three hits, yet there was no mention of the maximum measurment of a buckler.) The local marshall stated that some rules were vague due to the type of game we play, otherwise it would be more like LARP. He praised me for challenging the rules as sometimes vague is good, other times vague is a little to far.

As far as larger events/wars, the issue of inspections for some comes down to how far did they travel (driving 14 hours just to have your sword fail...), their temperment, the effects if someone is injured from a "sketchy" weapon, etc., etc., etc.

Going back to the pole axe, why not just put a big assed clacker covered in duct tape on it

[FrauHirsch]

I get what you are saying, and that would be really important if we were actually using steel or something dangerous.

We are using foam covered bendy sticks. For the most part, with very few exceptions, I really don't think it is possible to make an "Unsafe" weapon.

Weapon under 1 1/4"? Bounce it.

Spear head not 2" (3" fiber)? Bounce it.

Foam Head doesn't give AT ALL? Bounce it.

Metal on the striking surface? Bounce it.

Transmission fluid soaked 8 foot pike maul that weighs 25 lbs? Bounce it.

Exactly.

I rarely bounce weapons or armor, but when I do, its not because I'm "power tripping", its because its in clear violation. Even then, I usually will pull them straight to the MIC, who has always backed me up, because I don't do that frivolously. Everyone wants to play. If I am marshalling its my job to make sure as many people as possible get to play - safely.

Most of the time, the armor and weapons problems are from very newly authorized folks who are borrowing weapons or armor or just made their first one.

But if I had someone play the "I'm a big shot so I can do whatever I want." and they really had a dangerous weapon or armor issue, I'd go straight to the MIC or call a Marshal's court. The Knights I've dealt with are normally way too chivalrous and mature to pull that. Occasionally we get a "well its legal in our kingdom" at wars, but usually the person trying that is BSing there too, so I get a Knight from their own area to tell them to fix the problem.

Most of the time, the Marshals I've seen problems with for being "overly anal" were not fighters or were "fringe fighters" and basically didn't have a clue. I don't see them doing armor or weapons checks often though. The last time I encountered one was at an Estrella, who wanted to jam his hand sideways between my KSCA husband's gorget and close helm and say there was room for a blow to get in. It was ludicrous and a nearby Knight MIC saw it and reigned him in.

[InsaneIrish]

A:
The issue isn't moot, because something can be done about it. Rules can be changed.

Hence the reason for my question. I personally have not seen an "issue" that needs to be corrected.

D:
Not really sure why you are taking a tone with me. Did I do something to offend you?

No, you havn't offended me. I did not mean to impart that I was "taking a tone with you" in my posts. I am just trying to figure out where the perceived problem is. Because when I am marshalling I don't usually have issues like that.