The Armour Archive

So I'm getting my first shield, awwwwwww.


I had a sweet offer for an aluminum round shield with a boss.

Then I had conflicting reports of how effective or not effective a round shield is or is not. Also about shields on the arm as opposed to shields on the hand.

So I'm wondering if I couldn't get some straight talk.

Heaters vs kites, vs boss, vs no boss, vs arm, vs wrist, vs really long dragonheart type shield, etc. Help Help help. is appreciated.

Different strokes for different folks. Each type has advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I use a center grip round, about 26" in dia., because when I was starting out, I couldn't stand having my shield strapped on. The defense requires more mobile footwork, and a deflecting style of blocking (as opposed to hard blocking).

Heater types are more static, but provide better coverage. You can use the corners to block with minimal rotation in the face plane. Rotating a round does exactly nothing. I'm thinking of giving heaters another go, now that I am slowing up a bit.

The best thing for a new fighter is to give a variety a try. Most people will be willing to lend you their shield for a set or two, to give you a feel for them.

Warning - this is may not be a popular answer. But it will help the overall appearance within our game.

- Use the type of shield that historically goes with our armour (which hopefully is consistant for a period/region ... ). It works.

- Use period materials and construction. It works as well.

Cheers,
William
*the guy with the shield fetish*

Strapped scutums! Good coverage and can block wraps with a shrug of your shoulders, block outside blows with a slight lift and block inside with a light push to the right.

Plus it gives you a lot of room to paint : )

Your shield should be determined by your persona.
Your armor and weapons should be determined by your
persona.
If you do not have a persona, do research until you can
come up with at least a bare framework (a nationality
and time period to within a hundred years or so), then
start working from there.

-Graedwyn

Well, I've only been authorised for about 15 months, and have only used a strapped heater, but here are my opinions:

- A boss is only necessary for centre-grip shields. It lets you have your hand at the centre of mass of the shield, so that even with a loose grip, the shield will hang straight. A boss on antything that isn't centre grip is, in SCA combat, decorative.

- I can't comment on the performance of centre grip vs strapped, as no-one in my barony uses a centre gripped. I did see a visitor fight with a (heavy!) centre-gripped 36" diameter round, and she did well. I didn't get to fight her though, unfortunately.

- A bigger shield (like a big norman teardrop or a scutum) is easier, especially since you don't need to worry about your shins or knees, but is less mobile up close, so you are more vulnerable to wraps. It's also heavy, so feints can be more dangerous. You are also more likely to blind yourself with it.

- A medium-sized shield (say a 20" wide by 30" tall heater) will require active leg blocking, but will be a bit more mobile.

You also need to consider flat vs curved.

My advice would be;

- Talk to your local fighters about their shields, ask for a few pointers on each, and try a bit of slow-work with each. Shield styles differ, and you are best off with a style you can learn from someone at practice, rather than have to try and follow a book or forum.
- Ask them for advice of edge protection, local suppliers, etc.
- Make a shield similar to the one that feels the most comfy.
- Build your persona around the shield you like

One final comment is that, if you are a new fighter - the shield will get easier and lighter to hold in a month or so - around the time you learn to relax your shield hand!

Hope that helps!

Columb

Step 1: Figure out your persona
Step 2: Make shield that is appropriate for said persona

Alternative:
Experiment with different shield designs, made from different materials. Pick the one you like. Everyone else will tell you what works best... and every answer will be different.

I am using a center grip wood shield, because I am a norse viking persona. There are times I look at all those 14th century mafia types with their heaters and have a bit of jealousy. I am a new fighter (fighting for 7 months now) and while I die a lot more than my fellow noobs using heaters and scutums, I am simply making myself deal with it. I am using a heavy wood shield for now, and like it. My left arm hasn't been this strong since I was doing daily PT

The short answer is, if you want to use a certain shield type, then make your persona fit the shield if you dont want to do it the other way around. I am making center round work for me, cause I cant let go of the viking thing =)

With center round you may have to work a bit harder, but watch some of the dukes out there on youtube fighting center round. They are doing all right, hell they are dukes

use a shield that matches your armor. If you find that shield "x" works best for you, tailor your armor to that shield.

g-

Like most everyone has said, it's more about how you use it than what you use.

That being said, I just switched from a 32" round to a 34". But the best SCA shield, IMHO, is the center grip oval.


Healfdene

Halfdan wrote:Like most everyone has said, it's more about how you use it than what you use.

That being said, I just switched from a 32" round to a 34". But the best SCA shield, IMHO, is the center grip oval.


Healfdene

Really? What makes you say that? I, personally, can only think of one or maybe two dukes who use such a shield.

Heaters, center grip rounds, and kites (in that order) are the most represented in Crowns. Center grip ovals are almost non-existent. Like I think pole arms, two weapon etc have won more.

What makes center grip oval the best? I'd like to know so I can start making odds in favor of them if I need to!

DA

JillandI wrote:So I'm getting my first shield, awwwwwww.


I had a sweet offer for an aluminum round shield with a boss.

Then I had conflicting reports of how effective or not effective a round shield is or is not. Also about shields on the arm as opposed to shields on the hand.

So I'm wondering if I couldn't get some straight talk.

Heaters vs kites, vs boss, vs no boss, vs arm, vs wrist, vs really long dragonheart type shield, etc. Help Help help. is appreciated.

It is not the shield, but the fighter.

A poor fighter can make any shield perform poorly, while a good fighter can perform well with any shield.

Round shields are more work to use well than most shapes, but that doesn't mean they can't work well. Rounds interfere less with your offensive sword work than pretty much any other shape. They also passively cover less of your target than pretty much any other shape.

Don't be in love with any shield. They're all just tools. Start with one (really doesn't matter which) and get some hat time in behind that shield. Then get some experience working with other shields - after you have some sense of what they are for

It's a fine thing to have your gear match and fit a persona. But it's ok to let your persona evolve as you figure out what gear you like (instead of choosing your persona and matching your gear to it). It wouldn't be much fun to commit yourself to a Norse persona only to find that you really love plate armour and heater shields....

Thanks for the help, everyone.

But if I could focus the discussion a bit more on the pros and cons of the shields. Getting some of that. Ok Apparently a Round shield (assuming strapped) is more offensive as it interferes less with your shots, but also allows more through.

Teardrop has mad leg defenses but is weak to wraps.

Heater is the shield of choice, the bigger the better, yay heaters yay heaters!

Kite, is the transitional shield to the Heater or is what you have if you don't want to be "one of the guys with the heaters"

Center grip shields are for people who like to deflect blows rather than actually blocking them. They also take alot of work and require you to move alot. (I hope this means they're easier to move with)

Shield boss - decoration


Am I getting all this correctly? Feel free to impart any knowlege. I'm exceedingly curious.

From a "martial sport" perspective, there are basically 4 types of shield.

center-grip vs strapped: Functionally, they both have advantages and disadvantages; most people tend to strongly prefer one or the other for their personal style. I think center grips are better "generally" because it is easier to defend the off-side against 2-weapon and great weapon and "opposite" handers. But since most of the people you fight in a tournament are using RH S&S - and strapped shields are maybe a tiny bit more suited to this it's very balanced.

Static leg defense vs. punch/mobility defense: Roughly speaking, either you can block your onside leg and head with very little motion, or you cannot. Basically, this is the difference between a shield that is ~36" (depending on your height, stance, and the shape) and one that is shorter.

I think as you go to smaller shields, center grips are again a little more effective per unit area (unless you are Hauoc).

Also, it is pretty difficult to fight well with a center grip unless you are going to use your sword as passive defense from "basic" on guard position.

But that's just blah blah. Really what you should do is talk to the person who is training you to fight.

Another note on center-boss
I lends itself to a very aggressive combat style, also the boss can allow you to "peel" your opponent’s shield open or trap their shield-edge.

The 'tilting' nature of the shield can allow for interesting shot openings that a strapped shield cannot.

Really? What makes you say that? I, personally, can only think of one or maybe two dukes who use such a shield.

Heaters, center grip rounds, and kites (in that order) are the most represented in Crowns. Center grip ovals are almost non-existent. Like I think pole arms, two weapon etc have won more.

What makes center grip oval the best? I'd like to know so I can start making odds in favor of them if I need to!

DA

First, allow me to quote His Grace Sir Ailleignan: "Strapped shields are for guys on horses."



Like has been said before, it's not the type of shield you use, but how you use it. Around here the wisdom is that centergrips allow you to control range and be agressive. Also, you can move your body and keep the shield still if you need to.

The center grip oval's theoretical superiority for SCA fighting lies in the fact that it is basically shaped like your target area; it covers well and yet is easy to get your sword around. I use a round because it fits my persona.

Of course, there are many people who do just fine with other types of shields.

Like you imply, different shields and styles are prevalent in different locations. Just as you know few knights who use centergrips, I know of many (including many regular Crown List winners).

It's really a case of whatever works for the person.

Please note. I am not a great fighter, but I am an old crusty who thinks about fighting and stuff like that.

I fought for years with a big, side strapped heater. I am pretty sure that it set my fighting back considerably. Not because there is something wrong with it, but because a new guy tends to enjoy that passive leg defense, and just plain stop working on shield work. It took me several years of frustration to get over it. I am recommending that you not go larger than about twenty eight inches (which is already a pretty dang big shield), unless you are taller than six foot six. It can make you horribly lazy, and that will get in your way.

I now use a center grip heater because I portray a sixth century saxon, and the sheild is right for me.

It really depends on your target date and your culture.

It does seem like our rule set somehow favors a side strapped heater, but I can't fathom why that would be the case. It just seems to be a sheild that is on the arm of the winners in crown a lot.

The Center grip round comes in a very close second. I am trying to learn to use a center grip round right now. There is a lot of sophistication that is available with that shield. It is possible to block with the edge, the face, or the boss. It is possible to keep the shield far away from the body, draw it in really tight, "Hang" it for a really bang up passive leg protection, or "Half open door" it as a hard on, aggressive type of defense. I like to wave it around like an idiot, which can cause confusion to me, my opponent, the marshal, spectators, passing birds, and anything else in the vicinity.

It is possible to change your fighting style in mid bout by changing the amount of flex in your elbow, and twisting your wrist slightly.

You can extend your arm almost straight out, and place the shield close to your opponents shoulder, causing them a lot of trouble, especially if they are unfamiliar with the technique.

There is a lot of really cool things that you can do with a center grip round. I have a lot to learn, but I am beginning to get glimmerings of what it can do.

f

Here are some interesting YouTube videos from Hammaborg on round shield fighting. It's steel, not SCA, but there are some neat ideas in them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWSTx0tZHCU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGNBc7ew ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXPujfwQ ... re=related

I've been pretty much shieldless for about 20 years, but I used to favor a 24" strapped round, which you seldom see anymore. I loved that shield, and had a good defense. It does require an active defense, and good footwork. I'd be using one still if my left shoulder hadn't crapped out on me.

In addition to what was said here...

Are you looking for a shield for Tourney? Or melee?

Because...a centergrip round shield can be excellent for one on one, but is pretty much useless as part of a shield wall.

A guy from Norway saying center-grip shileds are useless in a shield wall....

As you can tell, there are almost as many opinions as there are fighters. I agree with the opinion of picking a shield that works with your portrayal, and practice with that.

There is no superior shiled, only superior fighters.


.

Hmmm, no one mentioned corners yet? Heaters, flat topped kites and squares/scutums have corners and are essential to some schools of SCA combat.

Like Frieman, I'm not a hot stick, but an old guy who thinks about fighting. Big strapped shields wit corners are easier to learn with, newbies feel safe an protected behind them I think that new fighters will plateau earlier with a big strapped shield than with a smaller shield, strapped or centre grip.

Smaller side strapped rounds and heaters make you learn range and movement and timing. They have some passive defense, but need to intercept and redirect most blows. Some folks swear by corner blocks, so they go with a heater, wankel, or square.

Centre grip shields, IMO, are the bomb. You can switch from a side strap style of fighting to a more buckler style as the situation demands. You learn timing, movement and distance. Centre grip heater and squares give you corners, kites give some passive leg prtection. I find that a centre grip oval is a good all around shield, good in tourney, good in melee.

But, it does also come down to what the best teachers in your area are using. as well.
If you pick a style no one knows how to use, you are stuck teaching yourself.

Halfdan wrote:First, allow me to quote His Grace Sir Ailleignan: "Strapped shields are for guys on horses."

I guess the hoplites had it all wrong....





Rowan

Alex Baird wrote:The best thing for a new fighter is to give a variety a try.

QFT

I have used a strapped 24" round, teardrop, heater, oval, and am now using a center grip round after 10+ years of fighting.

If you're new, try different shields as well as different styles of fighting. Develop your style then use which shield works best with that style.

Personal Anecdote:
I fought with a heater for years because I wanted to develop a late period personna. I went to a practice at a local duke's house and after two fights he pulls the heater out of my hands gives me a round and says, "You'll fight with this tonight. This will work better for your style of fighting". He was absolutely right and I saw an improvement right away.

And I now have an 11th century Irish personna.

I have now been talked into a centergrip round.

My friend Larry has chastised me with the argument that I'm going to get needlessly thwacked, but I'm 5'9" 150lbs so I think staying mobile will be the thing to try.

It fit's my middle Ireland persona pretty well. I could go heater just as easily considering the close proximity to the English.

I've bartered hjalmr some D&D books for a 24" aluminum center grip round with boss and edging.

There are other shields to try, I'm sure. I've got a fat piece of plywood in my back yard and a supportive wife so, I think I'll be alright.

The only lingering question in my mind is:

Does a center grip require more hand protection than a shield worn on the arm? .... I mean does it require a special shield basket or? Does the boss do all the work?

Thanks all for the help.

I'd also be interested in texts or websites discussing more center grip technique.

It depends on the boss. If it is built like a sword basket you wear normal demi gauntlets. If it is a more historical style boss then it probably leaves your hand a wee bit exposed. To be legal your demi gauntlet may have to incorporate a little more thumb protection, similar to a gauntlet's. I did without for years was hit on the top of the hand only occasionally. Sometimes that occasioned my sitting out the rest of the day. As I've gotten older and the injuries take longer to heal, I wear a gauntlet on that hand, regardless of weather or not I'm using a basket on my other weapon. I just keep another demi tucked in my belt to switch to in case I lose my weapon arm.

Hope this helps.

Yeah, you want thumb protection and finger tip protection under a center grip. A normal half gauntlet doesn't really protect the exposed parts of the hand. There are a lot of ways to do it.

The biggest danger is that somebody scooping your sheild will miss the sheild entirely and whack his sheild edge into your thumb. It is a very rare occurance, but it does happen.

Oh, and get the plywood out of the backyard and put it under the bed. By the time you get around to using it, it could be ruined. Water and wood don't work well together.

f

+Aluminum shields are light and fast and that's great

+Centergrips give you some variety in your stances you don't get with strapped heaters

+Heaters are all corners and give lots of coverage

+Kites and scudas make great war shields but get heavy in a hurry for one on one Esp a 4.5ft. osb kite for war. TRUST ME on that one

-rounds, get ready to lose legs. i've seen enough tournaments videos and fights to tell you that his sword tip etc. will be faster than your shield. You can either make the round bigger, or just plan on moving more. My fighter group guys trained me on one at first to make me move faster in armor

+Strapped shields are Sturdy. Those two secure points make it infinitely harder for the guys with polearms to hook your shield away from you in a useful fashion, i would prefer the strapped for trying to close with the guy weilding a six foot glave

ALSO, consider how your shield works with your armor. Can you use demis with a basket or do you need finger gauntlets?

Those are just a few thoughts and observations i made before and since i made my first shield

Dilan wrote:A guy from Norway saying center-grip shileds are useless in a shield wall....

As far as SCA combat is considered? Yep, I stand by that. Since we don't have spears penetrating the shield and getting stuck and potentially pulled out of the enemy's hands, all that happens is you either get legged because the shield is smaller than everybody else's, or it gets tabled from a thrust because you are only holding it with your hand. *shrug*

Just my 24-ish years of experience.

JillandI wrote:It fit's my middle Ireland persona pretty well. I could go heater just as easily considering the close proximity to the English.

Just curious...What do you mean by "middle Ireland", the style of shield is also determined(historically speaking) by your time frame....

Eamonn MacCampbell wrote:

JillandI wrote:It fit's my middle Ireland persona pretty well. I could go heater just as easily considering the close proximity to the English.

Just curious...What do you mean by "middle Ireland", the style of shield is also determined(historically speaking) by your time frame....

It serves two purposes.

1. location. I've decided I'd be kinda southwest of present day Dublin in the middle of Ireland. ie. definitely not a highland tribe.

2. I hadn't decided the century on which to focus. I liked the versatility of the latter centuries, But wanted to also get away with a mostly leather kit, because I want to make as much of it as I can. According to my sources, mostly google images and that http://www.mercwars.com/shieldtypes.shtml site, center grip rounds were really common. Unless I'm wrong about Saxon and Viking influence on Ireland.


While we're on the subject, which would be more likely?

hardened leather scales or lammelar? (if my terminology is off, then I'm talking about overlapping up or down) I honestly haven't figured that part out yet.

JillandI wrote:

Eamonn MacCampbell wrote:

JillandI wrote:It fit's my middle Ireland persona pretty well. I could go heater just as easily considering the close proximity to the English.

Just curious...What do you mean by "middle Ireland", the style of shield is also determined(historically speaking) by your time frame....

It serves two purposes.

1. location. I've decided I'd be kinda southwest of present day Dublin in the middle of Ireland. ie. definitely not a highland tribe.

2. I hadn't decided the century on which to focus. I liked the versatility of the latter centuries, But wanted to also get away with a mostly leather kit, because I want to make as much of it as I can. According to my sources, mostly google images and that http://www.mercwars.com/shieldtypes.shtml site, center grip rounds were really common. Unless I'm wrong about Saxon and Viking influence on Ireland.


While we're on the subject, which would be more likely?

hardened leather scales or lammelar? (if my terminology is off, then I'm talking about overlapping up or down) I honestly haven't figured that part out yet.

Well, first...there are no "highlands" of Ireland...Second, there are MANY threads about the historic use of leather in armour..I won't go into that, BUT, suffice to say...You're not gonna find much leather lam, or scale armour anywhere in Ireland.

Again, most of this is within whatever time you are trying to portray. You will also see oval shields in use, and some wicker retangles, and then there is the "battersea shield"(I think thats the name of it).

The Irish in the ealier times(pre Normans coming since England didn't exist per say at that time) the Irish clans fought mostly a guerrilla type of fighting...Basically leading the enemy into were they wanted to fight to give the Irish the best advantages...There are time when that didn't happen...But you get my drift.

I don't see why you couldn't use a round shield during the ealier times with the Norse raiding all the times...After the Normans arrived you would start seeing the kite shields...As time goes on you get the heater...It all depends on timeframe...AND location....The father west you get, outside of the Norman,English influence during the later times...You're gonna see a big difference between what the Irish wore, and those that lived within the Pale, who were heavily influenced by the English overlords....Now you can see why it was posted about the Irish wearing the same as the English.

It would also depend on your station in life at the time as well..Someone well off would obviously be able to get the better stuff if it was available to them.

Effective use of round shields requires mastery of punch blocking - closing off your attacker's strike probability cone as early in the shot as possible.

Winning with a small tourney shield is the icing on the delicious cake that is sca armored combat.

-Avery

"Shields should be like skirts: Long enough to cover everything, but short enough to keep it interesting."- Unknown knight at Pennsic 37.

Lucas

Lucas wrote:"Shields should be like skirts: Long enough to cover everything, but short enough to keep it interesting."- Unknown knight at Pennsic 37.

Lucas

HAHAHA!

That is great!