CA (again) â€“experimentation-

NeeSayer · Post by **NeeSayer** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:54 pm

[quote="randver]
I agree completely with Sir Richard.
A sling is a peasants weapon and everyone is soppost to be a lord or lady[/quote]

Can I get evidence saying that slings were limited to peasants only please?

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:38 pm

Well, in Irish history, warriors ofthe Red Branch and the Fianna, both considered the elite warriors of their time (and Nobility), used the sling on occasion.

Of course, this was not the PREFERRED weapon for range combat, as they also used thrown spears a LOT.

Again, I wouldn't like to see them in EVERY battle, but in a Romans vs. Celts battle or a similarly themed senario, it could be a cool opportunity to play with a new weapon.

.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:55 pm

Clinker wrote:
Eirik wrote:I have fought sling back in Meridies during the '80s. Duct taped tennis balls with Xs cut into them. My observations:

1. It won't get called. It is a tennis ball and won't hit hard enough to get noticed. Unless you want to be the dancing pansy calling "I keeled you I keeled you!" from across the field, get used to seeing them hit and fall unheeded.

Solution: Baseballs for sling ammo, maybe softballs for thrown "rocks". Hits with some authority, makes a good noise like a sword shot. It IS armoured combat after all, so WEAR armor and you won't need to whine like a little girl. Those who choose to go unarmored, will pay the price, just as in period.

I would really like to know: Why so much emphasis on thrusting-tip padding standards on lightweight missiles of limited velocity? There is no 300lb duke behind the shaft driving it like a couched lance. MAN-Up for crying out loud.

We should use siloflex arrows and bolts with golfball heads instead of sissy tennis balls or padded rubber stoppers too, but that is a different thread.

We will all send you the medical bills for our knee and ankle surgeries. :twisted:

Thanks for volunteering.

Graedwyn · Post by **Graedwyn** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:03 pm

In the Illiad(of course far out of our period)
people are constantly grabbing rocks off of the
ground and heaving them at each other.

-Graedwyn

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:42 pm

I have to say that if I made all this effort to train all year for Pennsic; Spent all this time brushing up on my strategy, tactics- Listening intently to all the words of wisdom of advice, past war stories and such. Finally on the field after a good nights sleep that followed the excitement coming from the commanders meeting I know that the War has finally begun.
Boom I am dead in 30 secs because some lazy @$%^& threw a tennis ball at me... I'd find another hobby quick.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:43 am

People feel the same way about CA and siege weaponry.

Like I said, don't do it in every battle, maybe just a special "senario". Then if you don't want to face it, don't go out.

Pretty simple, really.

AEiric Orvender · Post by **AEiric Orvender** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:52 am

Eirik wrote:I have fought sling back in Meridies during the '80s. Duct taped tennis balls with Xs cut into them. My observations:

1. It won't get called. It is a tennis ball and won't hit hard enough to get noticed. Unless you want to be the dancing pansy calling "I keeled you I keeled you!" from across the field, get used to seeing them hit and fall unheeded.
2. It's tennis balls, not stones. They are bigger and take up a lot of room if you are going to carry more than one or two. Even 4 or 5 will be an ungainly bag o' balls and will suck to carry around.
3. Most will give up practice long before achieving the accuracy necessary to be effective... and just lobbing tennis balls into the enemy ranks begats item #1.
4. Grasping and properly utilizing a sling whilst wearing SCA legal hand protection is an excercise in futility, but likely to get you at least $10,000 on a certain TV video show if captured on film.
5. The end of the sling will easily fit into an eyeslot when released... even your own. (ouch!)

Overall, I found it detracted from my fun, so it eventually went away. YMMV, and I wish you luck

Well wowâ€¦.

No funâ€¦ as for â€œout of periodâ€

Bleddyn De Caldicot · Post by **Bleddyn De Caldicot** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:38 am

Paul the Small wrote:
sean of the chipendales wrote:Soooo........ If I were in a scenario that had slings, I could pick up "glean" the "rock" and throw it and kill someone?

Or would i have to be authorized in rock throwing?

You wouldn't have to authorize in rock throwing, you would just have to take the Throwing Feat.

Not if you are a halfling

Jess · Post by **Jess** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:43 am

Pretend I said everything Sir Richard did but not so nice.

BTW, I'm an excellent rock chucker. Strangely, none of the other peerages want me. I demand a peerage to recognize my fellow stone throwers!

:lol:

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:48 am

You know, I think it is interesting that Ã†iric is getting his chops busted for wanting to actually research and try a weapon that would have actually been used by his persona.

As opposed to "stick polearms", Norse behind scutums, etc....

At best, IF he gets approval, he'll be experimenting with it at Midrealm events (not Pennsic) and will have to show the safety and viability to the KEM for the Midrealm.

Hey, he could be trying out the dreaded "Ulster Madu".

.

Eirik · Post by **Eirik** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:28 am

Wow. I feel incredibly picked-upon.

I want a new peerage for those that are picked on.
(sorry, wrong thread)

J/K. I thought handballs would make better ammo, too. Good luck in getting out there as a slinger... I'd rather play spear or glaive in melees

.

Paul the Small · Post by **Paul the Small** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:26 am

You should try the Kong toys like the mace heads are made of. They would hit harder than tennis balls and make that cool whistling noise too!

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:53 pm

Joseph wrote:I have to say that if I made all this effort to train all year for Pennsic; Spent all this time brushing up on my strategy, tactics- Listening intently to all the words of wisdom of advice, past war stories and such. Finally on the field after a good nights sleep that followed the excitement coming from the commanders meeting I know that the War has finally begun.
Boom I am dead in 30 secs because some lazy @$%^& threw a tennis ball at me... I'd find another hobby quick.

Interesting. Joseph, how do you reconcile this with your past statements on CA ?

And exactly how is it some lazy xxx ? Have you tried working a sling ? At least for most people, it's not easy. Quite a bit harder than any sort of bow.

Not to mention that I'm unclear why it matters how one gets dead in 30 seconds - exceptional skill in melee combat can still leave you gacked by the person fighting in their first war, ever, in 30 seconds :roll:

Clinker · Post by **Clinker** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:55 pm

Kilkenny wrote: We will all send you the medical bills for our knee and ankle surgeries.

?????
Fastballs from clamshell-gauntleted hands? Or self inflected injuries by out-of-shape Ex-highschool pitchers?
Worry more about misdirected greatsword blows. Rather more bonked helms from thrown items I suspect.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:37 pm

I think he is talking the tripping hazard...

.

Mark G. · Post by **Mark G.** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:36 pm

You know folks,

While I am neutral towards the sling idea (not opposed, just doesn't light my fire) I am not too concerned with "tripping". I mean I have fought in woods with sticks everywhere, in fields of small stumps and in year-old cornfields. Hell, I've tripped over more "dead" and falln fighters than I can even recall. Having a few balls rolling around on the ground just does not ignite my worry-meter.

One of my more memorable combat experiences involves tripping over someone while backing away from 2 BIG fighters armed with polearms. As I stumbled they both swung at me. One hit my shield, the other my head. I was hit so hard I had "hang-time" in the air. Literally I was looking up and thinking "Wow, the sky sure is blue! Hmmm, shouldn't I be hitting the ground soon? WHAMMM! Oh, there it is!"

:wink:

Kevin O'Shaughnessy

AngusGordon · Post by **AngusGordon** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:15 pm

All I can say is, if y'all get to use peasant weapons like slings, I'm gonna make me a rattan rake and fight with it.

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:37 pm

I'm going to throw stuffed animals and say they are plague ridden. So it will kill you even if it just touches you.

Screw swords, plague is period.

Uric

Malcolm_Mor · Post by **Malcolm_Mor** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:55 pm

Blackoak wrote:I'm going to throw stuffed animals and say they are plague ridden. So it will kill you even if it just touches you.

Screw swords, plague is period.

Uric

GLEANN ABHEANN HAS WMD'S!!!!!!!!!!

Clinker · Post by **Clinker** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:44 pm

Can't you launch cows in SCA siege engines? How about if wrapped in yellow duct tape? And 1/2" of foam padding.

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:03 am

Interesting. Joseph, how do you reconcile this with your past statements on CA ?

Your Grace, I am well aware that CA is something that exists within the "game" construct of the SCA melee conventions. Using CA to its maximum efficiency is then my responsibility. If CA's tenure wasn't as long or if for some reason only in the experimental stage than my tune would be much more akin to what I said on this thread.
Since I am left to use what is in our current arsenal, I will do so.
But I won't lobby for the tennis ball lobbers as I do with the CA people, it really looks silly and seems to have an even less chance of working right/well etc.

And exactly how is it some lazy xxx ? Have you tried working a sling ? At least for most people, it's not easy. Quite a bit harder than any sort of bow.

Well I have no experience with a sling so I guess I can't say for sure if its lazy so I will refer to your experience in the matter. I guess I used the word lazy to refer to someone who wouldn't even suit up and carry all the arrows and be a bowman. I don't know if that correctly refers to the slingmen but at least in my estimation it seems like a lazy person's way out of spending the cash on a bow and learning to make arrows etc. But again as you've pointed out, I don't have the experience so maybe being a sling- er? is harder. It would still suck.

Not to mention that I'm unclear why it matters how one gets dead in 30 seconds - exceptional skill in melee combat can still leave you gacked by the person fighting in their first war, ever, in 30 seconds

This again is a great point. I will just say that walking off the field to wait for the battle to end I will be the guy who ran down the field first just to smacked "dead" with a tennis ball. I can deal with being the guy who runs down the bridge and gets knocked over, beat down or even speared.
I can take responsibility and deal with if I should ever fall victim to ballista fire etc (so far so good) but again to walk off the field and watch the battle unfold because of being hit by a tennis ball I'd be pretty upset.
Is that rational? I am not sure, but it reminds me of a version of wall ball we used to play here. I can't rationalize going through all the effort to get killed the same way I would if I just walked 3 blocks from my house with Horace, Nkante and Simon and one of them "got me" playing suicide..

Hopefully that makes sense and thanks for the schooling Your Grace.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:58 am

Clinker wrote:Kilkenny wrote: We will all send you the medical bills for our knee and ankle surgeries.

?????
Fastballs from clamshell-gauntleted hands? Or self inflected injuries by out-of-shape Ex-highschool pitchers?
Worry more about misdirected greatsword blows. Rather more bonked helms from thrown items I suspect.

sigh. Do the balls all evaporate after contact ? If you aren't going to think it through....

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:03 am

Kevin O'Shaughnessy wrote:You know folks,

While I am neutral towards the sling idea (not opposed, just doesn't light my fire) I am not too concerned with "tripping". I mean I have fought in woods with sticks everywhere, in fields of small stumps and in year-old cornfields. Hell, I've tripped over more "dead" and falln fighters than I can even recall. Having a few balls rolling around on the ground just does not ignite my worry-meter.

One of my more memorable combat experiences involves tripping over someone while backing away from 2 BIG fighters armed with polearms. As I stumbled they both swung at me. One hit my shield, the other my head. I was hit so hard I had "hang-time" in the air. Literally I was looking up and thinking "Wow, the sky sure is blue! Hmmm, shouldn't I be hitting the ground soon? WHAMMM! Oh, there it is!"

Kevin O'Shaughnessy

While I don't disagree that we've got tons of crap out there to worry about already, in terms of natural tripping hazards just from terrain, plus bunches of people with sticks all over the place, I think it does make a real difference if we add a few dozen 1 to 3 inch dia. spheres out there.

There's pretty much no safe way to step on a baseball. Rattan sticks don't roll out from under the same way at all.

Make all the combat arrows golf ball tipped (which, btw, I've experimented with and they hit hard enough to kinda suck) and we're going to have an increase in knee and ankle injuries as people roll off them on the ground.

Stahlgrim · Post by **Stahlgrim** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:46 pm

first off I am a big fan of slings and have been thinking about this very subject for a while
here are some "Rocks"I found that we could use that would work they have the right look,they are even the right size 1.5" and only 5.99 per dozen.
http://www.orientaltrading.com/ui/brows ... t%20Detail

yes turned ankles are a danger as are stray slingstones flying into the crowd so from a safety perspective they may not be feasible .

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:03 pm

chuckle.. I know those rocks. Oriental Trading is fun.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:31 pm

Slinging for both range and accuracy is hard... and the more dense the missile, the better control you'll have, both for your effectiveness AND the crowd's safety (a bad sling release is much more hazardous to random bystanders than a bad arrow release).

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:06 pm

Stahlgrim, the main issue you would have with the rock bouncy balls is that they will hit and bounce away so fast, you will have fighters wondering what hit them. You get bumped and tinked from the people next to you, without something very visible I think many of those would be missed.

That in turn leads to the potential of a slinger "pointing out" that he hit a fighter, and we know what that leads to.

Other than scenario specific fights, I'd rather not see any more missile weapons on the field.

Uric

Stahlgrim · Post by **Stahlgrim** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:46 pm

Dense as these "rocks "are it is more like a lacrosse or superball than a tennis or racket ball. It should hit with authority. heck if they weren't so pricey lacrosse balls would be good.

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:23 pm

Aren't you the guy who got his heel crushed helping people? Hell, *you* can use any weapon you want. OK by me.

AEiric Orvender · Post by **AEiric Orvender** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:51 pm

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:Aren't you the guy who got his heel crushed helping people? Hell, *you* can use any weapon you want. OK by me.

LOL Well thanks! That really made me laugh!

To some other posts: those "rocks" while realistic are not hollow and would not 'crush' if stepped on, also the 'bounce' would be excessive... the slit hand/racquet ball will flatten when stepped on, and hits and 'stops' the ball hits with a bit of authority and due to the split sides the inertia of the ball 'spills' quickly after impact with nearly no 'bounce'

as for crowd safety..in my experience a 'bad' release often results in a 'down' shot (slinging the 'rock' into the ground), a loft (air ball) or rarely a back throw... back throws are weak (as the sling itself saps the energy of the toss) and has less impact than a thrown ball.

AngusGordon wrote:All I can say is, if y'all get to use peasant weapons like slings, I'm gonna make me a rattan rake and fight with it.

I am a Noble of the Iceni, a member of the Warrior class the sling was a often used weapon against the Romans and was used in the defeat of the Legio IX Hispana... By the Noble class of warriors.

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:49 am

http://www.compagniasantuberto.it/pages ... _campo.pdf

As much as I HATE the idea of slings, link above in the interest of full disclosure. It shows an unarmoured (or lightly armoured) sling user with a helm and shield using a sling during the maille era during a siege. In Europe.

Still think they are a bad idea for the SCA though.

Richard Blackmoore

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:52 am

http://www.compagniasantuberto.it/pages ... codice.pdf

And a fully armoured recreationist with one.

Drat.

AEiric Orvender · Post by **AEiric Orvender** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:51 am

Richard Blackmoore wrote:http://www.compagniasantuberto.it/pages/pdf/miniature_codice.pdf

And a fully armoured recreationist with one.

Drat.

Well thank you for the links. Now I do understand you're (and other's) thoughts on this but lets be totally honest here... if and I do mean if I were to manage to prove the sling can be used in a safe manor in the SCA I truly doubt you will ever see them in any number... most likely if you ever do get hit with a sling bullet... you'll just have to find me. LOL

The sling is a difficult weapon to master, much more so than the bow or crossbow, the sling method differs for each slinger and what is a comfortable throwing method for them... I doubt many CA enthusiasts will be drawn to the sling due to it's sharp learning curve.

Paul the Small · Post by **Paul the Small** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:31 pm

Malcolm_Mor wrote: [
GLEANN ABHEANN HAS WMD'S!!!!!!!!!!

No Malcolm, Gleann Abhann doesn't have WMDs, Gleann Abhann IS a WMD.

paul
proud member of the Gleann Abhann Army

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:37 pm

NeeSayer wrote:Can I get evidence saying that slings were limited to peasants only please?

Historically I know of at least one king that used a sling, before he got crowned.

-Aaron